CHAT ARCHIVE - 10-31-98, Halloween Evil

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Nov 01 00:10:00 1998

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<shorty103> happy Halloween everyone
<Zach> Bradbury,
<Crispian> Affirmative
<Zach> Bradbury, Dick, Simak, Godwin, Sturgeon in the specfic field. Victor Hugo is my literary idol.
<Zach> James Clavell was (is) a fine writer.
<shorty103> how is everyone tonight
<Zach> I am 44. How are you?
<Crispian> Hey everyone, Zach is having a birthday today
<Casey> Beset by ghosts, goblins, Power Rangers, and spiders.
<Zach> Woo hoo!
<shorty103> I am sitting here rapped in a blanket, with a heater at my feet, I'm cold
<Casey> That's right! He IS!
<Zach> Power Rangers! Aieeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
<Zach> Blanket? What, they aren't heating the garret anymore? <g>
<Crispian> Where are you at Rose?
<Casey> Happy Birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Zaaccchhhh, Happy Birthday to you.
<Casey> (imagine the music)
<Zach> Shucks, thanks.
<Crispian> Well Done Casey
<shorty103> Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada Crispian
<Crispian> Was you thinking of Frankie when you did that?
<Crispian> Coooooooooooooooooold up there! Sorry Rose
<Zach> Canada. (Brrrrrrr)
<shorty103> thanks, I feel warm already, and yes Brrrrrr is right
<Casey> Thank you, Crispian. Actually, I was thinking of Zach when I did that.
<Crispian> heh heh
<Zach> I live in the Deep South. It be a little chilly hear lately, like 50s in the morning.
<Crispian> Where in deep South, Zach?
<Zach> La.
<shorty103> try going down to 2 to 5 degrees
<Casey> He he! Zach, it was in the low 40's while Harold and I were sleeping on the ground in the mountains this week.
<Crispian> I live in Arkansas, got windows open tonight, fan blowing gentle breezes, shoes and socks off, wallpaper curling
<Zach> Sleeping on the ground. Say, don't' you die of hypothermia that way?
<Zach> Arkansas! Ah ha, close by.
<Crispian> Not far, Zach
<Zach> Nothing like us southern writers. Are you native?
<Casey> We did remember sleeping bags and cold weather tricks to stay warm.
<Zach> Cold weather tricks. Hmmm.
<Crispian> Not Native as far as birth, but native concerning beliefs
<shorty103> good to hear Casey
<Zach> Then you are acceptable :-)
<Crispian> Thanks
<Casey> We have a convert!
<Zach> How long you been writing, Crispy?
<Zach> Yay, converts!
<Zach> What mountains, BTW, Casey?
<Crispian> Wrote some 12 years ago, and then quit. Just started back up.
<Casey> Blue Ridge. Very pretty with the leaves turning and minus the forest fire.
<Zach> Say, Crispy, did you get the free head examination with the new Admin job?
<Crispian> Thanks Rose, blushing and trying to hide
<Crispian> Affirmative
<Zach> Sounds great, Casey.
<shorty103> yes, just like here, but the leaves are almost gone now
<Casey> It was great fun, Zach. I hated to come back home.
<Zach> I recall reading somewhere something to the effect of how many billions of tons of chlorophyll are destroyed as fall covers the hemisphere, rushing from north to south.
<Zach> You can imagine the wildfire (metaphorically), green to red and gold and orange and purple.
<Casey> That's one way of looking at the leaf fall.
<Crispian> I try not to look up much here, some of the leaves have attachments
<shorty103> is chip coming tonight
<Zach> Yeah, don't look up; never know what's waiting to fall.
<Casey> bug-type attachments, Crispy?
<Crispian> Or on its way Zach
<Crispian> A little more gooey than that Casey
<Casey> What? You have me mystified now.
<Crispian> Flying pellets of white, runny,.....need I continue
<Zach> Bird s__t, Casey. Come on, keep up... You nature woman, you.
<Crispian> Zach, tell em about the berrys
<Casey> Thanks, Zach.
<shorty103> Casey, may I send you something that I wrote yesterday, and if you have time give me your thoughts on it.
<Casey> Sure, Rose.
<Zach> Ooh, the purple berries that have traveled through the alimentary canals of the feathered bombers.
<Crispian> They be the ones
<Casey> We have the purple berries here.
<Casey> Our bird deposits are rarely white. The color threw me.
<Zach> You know, it's necessary for many plant species that their berries pass through the digestive system of animals so that they can sprout. Others, like the lodgepole pine, must go through a fire. There, more than you wanted to know.
<Crispian> Otay
<Casey> What! Crispian didn't know that?
<Zach> Say, Crispy, are you up in the beoootiful Ozarks?
<Crispian> Sure Am. Right between Bull Shoals Lake and Lake Norfork
<Zach> Man, you are lucky. You do get some snow in winter, right?
<shorty103> never heard of either place, sounds peaceful
<Crispian> Just a little, but its usually pretty warm during the days
<Casey> How very neat! I love the mountains.
<Crispian> I also
<Casey> Well, guess we should start. Chipper may be joining us late. Crip will definitely be late.
<Crispian> Pull the reins, teach
<Casey> How many of you have come in character tonight?
<Zach> Chip is AWOL. Bad Chip.
<Zach> Not me.
<Crispian> I are, I be, what's in character
<Zach> Who you want me to be?
<Casey> I came as one of my characters: Lona.
<shorty103> yes
<Crispian> I am Neil A.
<Casey> You have a character you like, Zach?
<Casey> Ahhh . . . almost like an AA meeting--no last names!
<Crispian> That's where the fun is
<shorty103> I just came up with a name, Rosa
<Casey> Crispian, who is Neil A?
<Crispian> My character in a novel
<Casey> Is he human, animal, alien?
<Casey> inanimate?
<Crispian> Animate, worldly, mysterious
<Casey> So mysterious, we'll never know him?
<Crispian> Not tonight, I suspicion
<Casey> Will you tell us a little bit about him/her?
<Crispian> Sure
<Crispian> There is a lust for blood
<Crispian> There is a compulsion to spread Evil
<Crispian> There is an appetite for Adventure
<Zach> Blood and evil. You got my attention, Neil A.
<Casey> Is Neil a male, or does the name divert us from her true sex?
<Crispian> Sex is of no consequence
<Casey> ah-ha! A true mystery person.
<Zach> Sex is always of consequence <g>
<Crispian> Some worse than others
<Casey> Sex always has consequences! :-)
<Zach> Go on, Neil A. Confess!
<Crispian> I don't think so
<Casey> Why has Neil such a compulsion for evil and blood?
<Zach> Oh, you LIKE torture.
<Crispian> Why is there evil to begin with?
<Zach> Okay, why does evil exist.
<Zach> Because people exist to perceive it and commit it.
<Casey> Should we define "evil" first?
<Zach> If you dare.
<shorty103> yes
<Crispian> Please do
<Casey> Looking for my dictionary . . .
<Zach> Hey, no fair.
<BeckyB> part of it could be things done to intentionally hurt others.
<Crispian> Ah, Webster me boy
<Zach> I take it to mean coercion of one person by another. Period.
<Zach> Presupposing intent, of course.
<Casey> morally wrong, immoral; wicked 2. harmful, injurious
<Casey> are the first two definitions
<BeckyB> Dave and I coerce each other all the time. What does that mean?
<Crispian> Morally wrong, now there is a real enigma
<Zach> Morally wrong; immoral. Those should be fun to define.
<Zach> That you and Dave are EEEE-vil! <g>
<Casey> An obscure word defined by even more obscure words.
<Crispian> Not only obscure, but always in change
<Casey> Yes. Exactly
<shorty103> interesting
<Zach> Like, with knives and clubs, Becky?
<Casey> What is permitted in society today would have horrified our ancestors.
<Zach> Or vice versa?
<BeckyB> More with whips and chains. :-)
<Zach> The Spanish Inquisition was a real hoot, they tell me.
<Crispian> And thus, what will tomorrow provide us with
<Zach> Whips and chains don't count; sorry.
<shorty103> try burned at the stake more like it
<Crispian> How about mirrors?
<BeckyB> But is what is permitted right because it is permitted?
<Zach> I learned about "the ... Pear" yesterday (can't include the adjectival part)
<Zach> No, Becky, I don't believe in that.
<BeckyB> I agree
<Crispian> Could evil be described as anything that does not consent with the morality of whatever period it is in?
<Casey> Some things like "burned at the stake" seem to retain their "bad" impressions down through the ages.
<Zach> We all draw our own lines, as Robert Ringer pointed out long ago. What is moral and good for one is not so good for another.
<BeckyB> If you are an atheist it could, but I'm not really in the mood to get into a major theological discussion tonight.
<Crispian> But does not society set a standard, or an acceptable mean
<Zach> Probably, Crispy.
<shorty103> but isn't that what they did to the so called " witches" back then
<Crispian> Whether right or wrong
<Zach> It's tough to exclude religious influences good and bad when the subject of evil is being discussed, alas.
<Crispian> Becky, wasn't referring to theology
<Casey> Yes, Rose, but it was a method of execution, just as today we use electrocution and lethal injection.
<BeckyB> Yes I was.
<Zach> They burned witches on occasion. 'Course, you gotta determine the witchery, right?
<shorty103> right
<shorty103> well that is the way I understood it
<Zach> I think the difficulty through the ages in defining and executing a general moral code is that morality depends on the definition of the person defining it, and those are many and varied. In the Islamic countries, they have a very strict code which is not necessarily to the liking of Western man.
<Casey> Exactly, Zach.
<Zach> I, for example, don't care for the Southern Baptists' definition of woman's subordinate role in marriage. They like it fine. There used to be laws written that way; still are.
<Crispian> I agree Zach
<Casey> Those laws serve a purpose for the law makers.
<Zach> Oh, and BTW, if a man and a woman die at the same exact time in an accident, the woman is considered, by law, to have died first (anywhere up to 24 hours after the accident). Interesting, eh? Oh, this is in the U.S. of A.
<Crispian> What purpose Casey?
<Zach> Power has its purpose, eh? Always and everywhere. Now we're getting closer to that evil thing.
<shorty103> I, myself, believe that no matter what laws are there, we are all equal
<Crispian> It does appear, power & evil walk hand in hand
<Casey> The subordinate role of women in marriage assure men a position of power where their decisions are not so readily disputed. It may have been meant to minimize arguments within a marriage, but that's not generally how it works.
<BeckyB> That which is LEGAL often has very little to do with what is MORAL. You wouldn't even believe the legal issues in tax law.
<Zach> If you've ever been involved with lawyers, you have a good flavor for how much evil is done in the name of (supposed) good.
<Crispian> Casey, I suspicion the subordinate role of the woman, initiates through biblical teachings
<Casey> Yes, Crispian, it does, but it has a purpose for being.
<Casey> There is a rationale for everything--whether we agree with the logic behind it or not.
<shorty103> I do for a man because I want to do it, not because I was told to do it, I have been in that kind of situation, and it's not very fun
<Crispian> Are you submitting, women are subordinate because it furthers the man's preference
<Casey> No, because it minimizes conflict.
<Casey> Or is supposed to.
<Zach> I think you have to be careful when you're making minimization of conflict a primary value.
<BeckyB> Are women subordinate? I've never felt like a subordinate to someone just because they are male.
<Crispian> Might it not be merely because man has traditionally been the stronger in physical strength and therefore could overpower the female
<Zach> There is very little conflict between men and women in Iran.
<Casey> No, Becky. We're discussing the Biblical position of women being subordinate to men. The rationale for such a 'law'
<Zach> I oppose the concept of superiority on the basis of superior upper body strength. Have we gotten so far from honoring our women?
<Crispian> I oppose it also Zach
<Crispian> But I submit this
<BeckyB> But from the way I interpret the bible it is stated that Eve is to follow Adam's council. It is not that she is his subordinate.
<Crispian> I worked in a place with females and if a woman needed help, the men would complain
<Crispian> But if a small man wanted help, they all would assist in the same tasks?
<Casey> Isn't physical strength tempered by the position of honor women are held in by men?
<Zach> I think we should love and help one another. This seems a decent moral precept.
<shorty103> we as men and women should honor each other for who we are, not the physical strength of each other
<Crispian> Does evil perceive that
<Crispian> Help ourselves, take what we desire
<Casey> I would wish to amend "love" to read "respect," Zach.
<Zach> It was my intention, Casey. Love is too easy to misinterpret.
<Casey> Exactly. Precisely why I wished to change your wording.
<Zach> You editor, you <g>
<Casey> (I'm incorrigible!)
<Casey> So, evil is about self-interest alone?
<shorty103> I think that is part of it
<Casey> What would be another part, Rose?
<Crispian> No, but self-interest tends to be a much larger amount than average
<Zach> Not if everyone else is out to get you, Casey. Then you'd better practice self-interest.
<shorty103> self-interest alone
<Crispian> You bet Zach
<shorty103> well, greed
<Casey> Agreed. But from the standpoint of one whom we would call evil, wouldn't his/her sole focus be upon personal gain?
<BeckyB> There is the saying "Pride is the root of all evil". Pride meaning putting oneself first and viewing others as less.
<shorty103> wanting more than they'll ever use in a life time
<Crispian> Could one say that evil is nothing more than anything that is not considered moral and good by society at a given period in time?
<Casey> It's frequently defined that way, Crispian.
<BeckyB> No Crispian. I disagree.
<Crispian> Why Becky? Curious
<BeckyB> Because there is an unchanging God who defines what is moral.
<Crispian> To the Christan, yes. But does society in general follow Christian principles?
<BeckyB> Yes, because Christianity is true.
<Crispian> Okay, what if we live in a Country that doesn't know anything about Christianity?
<Zach> Not everyone believes that Christianity is true, Becky. What say you to the Moslems?
<Casey> Or the Hindus
<Crispian> Or Buddah?
<Zach> What about those people who, through no fault of their own, never learned of Christ and therefore are doomed to hell?
<BeckyB> That they should live a righteous life according to their own beliefs.
<Casey> Yet these other religions also follow a strict moral code.
<Zach> Buddhism is not a religion, BTW, Crispy.
<Zach> A righteous life. I agree.
<Crispian> Not to you maybe, heh heh
<Zach> Buddhism is a means of achieving understanding, and strictly rejects the concept of a god outside man.
<shorty103> but for those who don't believe there is a God, they follow the other path, which leads to disorganization, unforgiving others who have done what they thought was right for the good of a company
<BeckyB> Life does not end at death. Everyone will have a chance to learn and make choices for themselves before they are judged.
<Crispian> Isn't it curious, if we delete Religion, than what becomes the standard for morality
<Crispian> Maybe Survival
<BeckyB> Not bad. It is a great motivator.
<Zach> Crispy, I decided long ago that there is no rational basis for morality. This causes trouble if you see no religion in a society. But there are those of us who do not look to a god for standards of righteousness, who believe that if there is one he does not interfere in the affairs of men and thus we are on our own.
<Casey> Religions have a common desire to create rules of conduct by which men and women live in the least amount of violence possible.
<Crispian> Okay Zach, for the sake of discussion, if there is no religion, is there not only survival?
<Zach> Pretty much, Crispy.
<Crispian> Isn't it also interesting. Rules create conformance, not performance!
<Zach> Most of us are "good" because of our religious upbringing or because we fear retribution for misdeeds. I have seen the worst unethical acts committed, in the course of my life, by those who profess a religion most loudly.
<shorty103> I don't go to church, but I believe in my heart, but the action we take here on earth should be judged not only by our peers, but from the one above, if there is one.
<Crispian> Ah retribution. Great point Zach
<BeckyB> I'd revise that - Rules create order, not creativity.
<Crispian> Hypocrites are everywhere
<Zach> Cathy ran afoul of a boss who, fine Jewish woman she was, insisted that she commit unethical acts and fired her when she didn't. A co-worker, a Pentecostal preacher, treated her like a leper when she went back to pick up some things. Yep. Real great religious people.
<Crispian> Whose order Becky?
<BeckyB> Order in lack of chaos.
<Zach> Rules can and do create order, Becky. A good point.
<BeckyB> Not any particular order of any person. I just mean order.
<Crispian> I mean, who decides what is orderly?
<shorty103> I try not to be a hypocrite, that to me serves no purpose.
<Zach> And tend to stifle creativity, but there needs to be a balance.
<Crispian> The must be a balance Zach, I agree
<Zach> If you're around an anal retentive type, Crispy, you learn that THEY do.
<Crispian> Don't quite understand point, Zach
<Zach> Anyone here who hasn't at least read a little on Buddhism, I'd suggest it's worth a couple hours of your time.
<Crispian> Buddism has many fascinating points
<Zach> The anal retentives tend to be very ordered and orderly people. To a fault. Annoyingly so.
<BeckyB> Order seems to be predictability. If my house is in order I can find things where I expect them to be. Order in your life might be predictability too.
<Crispian> I have never thought about that Zach, at least in that manner
<Zach> I tend to be anal, and work hard to be more laid back. I am tolerant and pretty easygoing, all in all.
<shorty103> but life is not predictable,
<Zach> Hear hear, Rose!
<BeckyB> There are a lot of good points to most points of veiw. Buddhism is good. So is Hinduism. It's very interesting to study different beliefs.
<Crispian> Agreed Becky
<BeckyB> No, that's true. Life is pretty chaotic. :-)
<Crispian> So back to evil, is it not just what society deems unacceptable behavor
<Crispian> Or is something more?
<Crispian> And is there a difference between evil and pure evil?
<shorty103> I have looked into different religions, but those two I haven't, but understanding oneself is part of the journey for all
<BeckyB> No. It is more but I always get in trouble when I push the Devil is real and actually exists idea.
<Zach> Take the AA approach Becky, and use the "God of your understanding" and "Devil of your understanding." Won't get you in as much trouble.
<Casey> Is a better question, Crispian, not evil and pure evil, but degrees of evil?
<Crispian> Okay Casey, that is also acceptable
<BeckyB> True. And most days I'm not too adversarial, but today... It's been a rotten day.
<Casey> such as, gossip is considered evil because it often harms innocent people, but is not considered evil universally.
<Zach> We can call them petty evil and grand evil, or first degree, second degree, misdemeanor evil, etc.
<Crispian> I am curious how someone could kill just for the sake of killing, and get enjoyment from it. No benefit just to kill and watch something die
<Casey> Murder, pretty much, is considered a universal evil.
<Zach> Becky, there is always more brightness than you think. You'll just have to trust me on that one. I've had some beauts in my time.
<Crispian> Aw, but murder usually has some benefit to someone! At least I think it does
<BeckyB> There is brightness. Just a little cloudy this week is all. :-)
<Zach> Visceral pleasure, Crispy?
<Casey> Isn't there a feeling of power associated with taking a life?
<Zach> I understand, Becky.
<Crispian> Probably
<shorty103> I think that all of us have some evil in without acting on it, and gossip leads to choas within a community, and some act it out by taking a life or creating war on another country
<Crispian> So power = evil
<Zach> No, power is not necessarily evil, but power corrupts.
<Crispian> It sure does
<BeckyB> But I've seen some examples of power that have been very good.
<Zach> The wise use of power can be very good. I suspect this is strictly limited, however, and usually fails in time.
<Crispian> How about an example Becky
<BeckyB> But it sure is harder to maintain goodness when you are in a position of power.
<Crispian> Are we talking about the human spirit now.
<Crispian> Or should I say the human composition
<Casey> I suspect that evil is the pursuit of power, but not that power itself is evil.
<BeckyB> Most of the examples are small things. The boss who cares and gives regular raises and feedback.
<BeckyB> The senater who votes for what is right.
<Crispian> I like that train Becky
<Zach> I have never been in a position of power that didn't make me feel uncomfortable (power over another, I mean). I cannot see how it is to anyone's benefit, quite frankly, except possibly our children to keep them from harm.
<Crispian> It raises something a question a lot
<shorty103> but even in the position of power and good is being done, there are someone under that person or persons that will try to take over and do just the opposite
<BeckyB> You hear a lot about the abuses, but most people want to be known for the good they do and really try.
<Zach> It is almost impossible to be in a position of deciding rights and benefits of groups of people and not do harm to some or most. This is, IMO, where the power can do good concept tends to fail.
<Zach> I'll help these old people in Vermont, by taking some away from these others in Florida. So some kid doesn't get an education, altering his/her life. Good done by doing harm?
<Casey> I think also that power requires a constant vigilance and self-questioning, which is exhausting.
<Casey> To remain "good" that is.
<BeckyB> I think that is why democracy is so vital. We get to chose those who get the power and have the ability to remove them when problems arise.
<Crispian> If we wait long enough
<Zach> It's not necessarily easy to remove them, Becky. In the end, only your God is reliable enough in that regard.
<Crispian> I would like to pose a curious question
<Casey> Do, Crispian.
<BeckyB> True. There are a "few" people in power that I never voted for.
<Zach> Except for Strom Thurmond, it seems, who cannot die. <laughs>
<Crispian> If someone I know lies to me intentionally, then I tend to find that company unacceptable,
<Casey> *L* Zach!
<Crispian> Yet our Politicians are caught in lies nearly everyday, yet we continue to vote them back in and accept their apologies nearly every time
<Zach> And I don't, BTW, think much of the democratic action that put the judge on the bench who took my daughter from me. But hey, s__t happens.
<BeckyB> Then fight to get him off.
<Casey> So, do we have a separate moral expectation of politicians than we do for friends?
<Zach> Alas, our elected officials are merely a reflection of the least common denominator of those who vote them there.
<BeckyB> I know. It doesn't work well. Alright. We'll just have to hope for a heart attack to do the dirty work. :-)
<Crispian> expectation or tolerance, Casey
<Zach> Good plan, Becky. Meanwhile, I will try to keep myself and especially my teenage son from not appearing before him. You've never lived in the Deep South, I see.
<BeckyB> Nope. Never been to the Deep South.
<Zach> At least the sheriffs aren't as powerful as they used to be.
<Casey> either or both, Crispian
<shorty103> I find that some people lie, because they don't know what the truth really is. I have only voted twice, but neither time I knew who I was voting for or why, I don't understand politics and why they talk about things that will never come to be in this world, promises are all they are, no real intent to do anything.
<Zach> Anyway, enough grousing. Let's move on to brighter subjects, like pure evil.
<Crispian> Yeah
<Crispian> Is evil insanity?
<BeckyB> I have a question, do we all agree that for whatever reason, evil does exist?
<Casey> Do we tolerate corruption, because if we don't tolerate it, then we must do the work necessary to remove that individual and assume his job ourselves, and we're just too lazy to do that?
<Crispian> I sure agree it does Becky
<Zach> BTW, in the Buddhist vein I accept that things follow their own path, and one may not push too hard to achieve a desire; failure results.
<Casey> Yes, evil does exist.
<Zach> I see you never met my ex-wife, Becky (now this is fun). Yep, evil exists.
<Crispian> heh heh
<Zach> Enough grousing (he says again).
<BeckyB> So the real task in our writing is to be able to portray it and figure out new and interesting ways to fight (or not fight) it.
<shorty103> what is grousing?
<Casey> grumbling . . . complaining
<Zach> Complaining, but only by somebody really old and crotchety like me. (Actually, age doesn't matter; I'm just trying to sound important or smart)
<shorty103> understood
<BeckyB> You aren't that old either. :-)
<Zach> It comes and goes, I think.
<Crispian> So we must portray evil simply because it furthers our stories, or keeps interest?
<Zach> Thanks, Becky.
<Casey> He's my age. Yeah, real old, Zach!
<Zach> Problems between people in stories often have to do with coercion and resistance to it.
<BeckyB> We don't have to I suppose, but most good ones do.
<Zach> Ha, Casey!
<Casey> It's not necessary to portray evil in our stories.
<shorty103> I have a hard time writing those types of things, even though I have experinced it
<Zach> Good versus evil is your basic morality play. Most of the great works of fiction are quite in this vein.
<Crispian> Doesn't there need to be a villian,
<Casey> The Gift of the Magi does not deal with evil.
<Zach> Good point, Casey.
<Crispian> But I am speaking of the average
<BeckyB> That's a great story too.
<BeckyB> But I doubt you could write a novel like it.
<Zach> It's a romance story, of course.
<Casey> Well, isn't the "average" what we've been rebelling and fussing about for months? How boring it has become?
<Zach> I wrote a 15,000 word romance novella once <g>
<Crispian> How boring it has always been
<Zach> I think maybe you're thinking more of formulaic stories, Casey. Think so?
<Chipmonk> Hi everybody!
<Crispian> Hello Chipper, Alvin sends his best regards
<Casey> Yes, especially those, Zach.
<Zach> Those really simplistic and mind-numbing things that are served up by the huge corporations for those LCD readers?
<Chipmonk> Alvin is a naughty chipmunk.
<Crispian> He sure is!
<Crispian> Maybe a little evil too
<Casey> How does "naughty" compare/differentiate from "evil?"
<BeckyB> We all have a bit of an EVIL streak I'm afraid.
<Casey> Isn't that why we are fascinated by evil?
<BeckyB> Could naughty be funny and acceptable evil? :-)
<Chipmonk> I don't know about that. I equate evil with a desire to intentionally harm.
<Zach> You bet, Becky! Ever read Tom Sawyer?
<Crispian> Or frightened by it
<shorty103> some of us Becky, but I can't find it in my heart to harm anyone
<Casey> Evil where no one is substantially or physically harmed?
<BeckyB> Yep.
<Zach> Tom and Huck were naughty, but not evil. A fun story.
<Zach> But Injun Joe! He was evil.
<BeckyB> He was real Bad.
<shorty103> so by taking of a life, that is evil, am I understanding this right
<Chipmonk> Or so he appeared. we don't know much about Injun Joe and his motivations.
<Crispian> Can there be evil without pain to a human
<Casey> Chip, we've never left Neil A (aka Crispian), who is obsessed with blood and evil.
<BeckyB> Zen might argue that evil can be done to trees and animals.
<Chipmonk> What about pain to anything?
<BeckyB> There can be pain without evil.
<Zach> Ah, now we're getting somewhere. The taking of life to sustain life. Eating mustard greens.
<Chipmonk> I'd argue that too. Or to the cosmos in general through evil thought patterns.
<BeckyB> I think it deals a lot with intent.
<Zach> I am fond of beef and pork.
<Zach> And fishing's fun.
<Casey> I intend to eat the mustard greens. That robs a bunny family of their only meal. Am I evil?
<Crispian> So if someone thinks bad things only, and then tells someone, that constitutes an evil person
<BeckyB> Zach, you murderous beast. You have killed fish and have no remorse!!!! :-) Me too.
<Zach> (I hear Foghorn Leghorn in the background. Fishin's fun I like to fish, doo dah, doo dah.)
<Chipmonk> Is there a difference between killing a cow for food and say, setting them on fire just to watch them scream?
<Crispian> Laughing Zach
<Zach> Catch a lot if I get my wish, oh doo dah day.
<BeckyB> I think so Chip.
<Casey> There is a definite difference, Chip.
<Zach> Cow tipping is supposed to be fun. Never tried it myself.
<Crispian> So we continue the thought chipper
<Crispian> If we kill the cow for food, but than let the food spoil, we are evil
<Zach> I think that we have a lot of trouble defining evil among us humans. Maybe we can think about the lower life forms later on.
<Zach> No, Crispy, just dumb. Gotta draw the line there.
<Crispian> laughing
<Casey> And a difference between killing one cow for food and killing 12 to demonstrate our hunting prowess, or for their horns only, etc.
<shorty103> but acting on intent, that is evil, harm to anything living, that is evil,
<Chipmonk> What if you let it spoil because you had to leave town to care for a sick cow?
<Crispian> I see, hunters are evil
<Zach> yeah, Casey, the killing to prove manhood. Jeez.
<BeckyB> About 20 years ago there was a case where the cost of sheep was so low it was more to bring them to market than a farmer could get. So he slaughtered and buried the entire 10,000 sheep. Everyone was outraged at the senseless deaths, but for food no one cares.
<Zach> To keep his costs from eating him alive (no pun intended), right?
<BeckyB> LOL Chip.
<Zach> I hear the cows in England are pretty mad these days.
<Casey> boooo, Zach!
<Zach> I must be tired. Getting a little flip here.
<Casey> Noticed.
<shorty103> I can not picture myself killing anything to survive, even though I eat it
<Zach> Well, Cathy said I get to do what I want today. In two hours I change back into a pumpkin, so....
<Casey> You must not have been raised on a farm, Rose.
<BeckyB> We raised rabbits when I was a kid and my dad had the job of killing and butchering. It isn't pretty.
<shorty103> no I wasn't
<BeckyB> Does that mean Goodbye Zach?
<Zach> What, Rose, you think broccoli isn't alive? Remember, that your DNA does not differ from that of any other living creature by more than 20%.
<Casey> We raised and butchered cows, which is messy, too. Very.
<Zach> Goodbye? Oh, the pumpkin thing. No, I'll go on to write recipe books.
<Zach> Dessert stuff.
<shorty103> I don't eat broccoli, so there safe
<Zach> Orange desserts.
<Crispian> Bye Zach: Have a great end to your birthday
<BeckyB> Pumpkin pie recipes perhaps?
<Zach> Hey, I'm not going away, okay?
<BeckyB> Is it Zach's birthday?
<Casey> Yes.
<shorty103> happy birthday Zach
<Zach> Or...are you guys telling me to go?
<Casey> He's the elegant age of 44
<Casey> No, no, no!
<Crispian> No, we just thought you were leaving. Or I did anyway
<Zach> Nope, this is too much fun.
<BeckyB> It's my Brother-in-law's too. We were giving him a hard time about being a ghoul that appeared on Halloween.
<shorty103> no, but I thought you were by the way everyone was talking
<Zach> Yay for brother in law!
<Chipmonk> Maybe its because they're so used to you disappearing, Zach?
<BeckyB> Where are the ghost stories?
<Zach> They're just trying to get rid of me. Don't listen to 'em, Rose.
<BeckyB> It is Halloween after all.
<Zach> Maybe with Win95 it won't happen anymore.
<Crispian> If we kill animals for money, and since money is the root of all evil, there we are evil
<shorty103> okay
<Zach> I've only written a very little supernatural stuff. In fact, I think you've read all of it.
<Zach> (Rats. I shouldn've said you have one more sig to print of them.)
<BeckyB> So professional butchers are evil. I think they are just doing honest work to provide for their families.
<Zach> I love money.
<Crispian> heh heh
<Crispian> Oh, so we are making an exception here
<Zach> Can buy food. Eat. Survive. Keep creditors from turning me into food.
<Chipmonk> Maybe there is no evil. It is just our perception of things we don't understand.
<BeckyB> You know, in the end, we are all still just going to each use our own interpretation of what we believe is good and evil and it will differ and for different reasons. Trust your own feelings.
<shorty103> interesting point chip
<Crispian> What food would they turn you into Zach?
<BeckyB> And always be willing to listen to the other side.
<Zach> You weren't here earlier, Chip, so I'll repeat myself: my ex-wife is proof that there's evil in the world.
<Zach> Good and yummy food, Crispy.
<Casey> Crispy would become Chips
<Zach> Creditor burgers, I guess.
<Crispian> heh heh
<Crispian> buffalo chips?
<Zach> 'Course, I have gotten tough in my old age, but if you used some meat tenderizer I might cook up pretty good.
<Casey> *I* didn't say that!
<Crispian> heh heh
<Casey> Chip, did you arrive in character and costume tonight?
<Zach> But I am a writer, and so do stay pretty soft.
<Chipmonk> We should cook Zach up cajun style.
<Chipmonk> Yes, I'm in costume.
<Casey> Yeah, spicy!
<Crispian> In some countries, that wouldn't be evil, just good food
<Casey> Who/what are you?
<shorty103> never tried cajun style, sounds spicy
<Chipmonk> Blackened Zach fish.
<BeckyB> hahhahahha
<Zach> Haaaaaa! Great.
<shorty103> lol
<Casey> Are you living or fried?
<shorty103> your goose is cooked now Zach
<Zach> I'd really rather be done up in medallions.
<Chipmonk> What am I? I'm black and white and have red eyes and pointy teeth instead of buck teeth.
<Zach> I had my goose removed already.
<BeckyB> I'd be Mexican. A chimimomma.
<Zach> Chimimommamommamommamommamommamomma (sorry, couldn't help myself <g>)
<Casey> Eatten any good bugs lately?
<BeckyB> Black and white, Humm Are you a skunk tonight?
<Crispian> Anyone had chocolate covered ants?
<BeckyB> Not quite that many mommas. HOPE
<shorty103> grining a toothless grin at everyone
<Zach> Skunnk? Hey, can I be skunky?
<Chipmonk> Nope not a skunk.
<BeckyB> Racoon?
<Chipmonk> Nope.
<Zach> Okay, got carried away.
<Chipmonk> I'm a character from a book.
<Crispian> I also
<BeckyB> Rat?
<Zach> Rats.
<Zach> Mice.
<Zach> Badgers.
<Zach> Wallabies.
<Zach> Koalas.
<shorty103> jack-o-lantrain
<Chipmonk> Nope, not a rat, but you're in the right family.
<BeckyB> I'm guessing a non-earth creature.
<shorty103> groundhog
<Zach> Nutria.
<zentao> Greetings, Goblins.
<BeckyB> Ferret?
<Zach> Hi, Zen.
<Chipmonk> No your getting colder.
<Zach> Ferrari.
<Zach> Lambourghini
<shorty103> groundhog
<Chipmonk> No, no! Something much more common.
<Casey> straticus something or another.
<Zach> Are we all having fun yet?
<shorty103> fox
<Casey> Relative to a squirrel
<Chipmonk> I'm a striaticus when I'm not in costume.
<Crispian> squirrel bait
<zentao> I'm me in costume and out.
<Zach> Cook up okay?
<Chipmonk> Hmmm, that's interesting Zen.
<Crispian> heh heh
<Casey> Is Chip going to tell us?
<Zach> Good grief, you are unclothed?
<Chipmonk> Another hint. I'm from a modern children's book.
<Zach> A pooh?
<BeckyB> Armidillo, how's that for getting further away.
<Zach> A peach?
<BeckyB> Cat?
<Chipmonk> I'm a vegatarian, heh heh.
<Casey> That narrows the field to 5,000 books!
<Chipmonk> I suck color out of vegetables.
<zentao> I'm a carnivore. I Love chipmunks. *evil laugh*
<Casey> field mouse?
<Casey> vampire field mouse
<BeckyB> Bat?
<Zach> Zen, you missed the big discussion on evil. Boy, would you have had fun.
<Chipmonk> With my pointy front teeth that are inappropriate for my species.
<shorty103> you did say squirrel bait didn't you
<BeckyB> Bunnicula?
<Chipmonk> Vampire is getting very hot!
<Crispian> wood chuck, beaver?
<BeckyB> Bunny rabit?
<Chipmonk> Bunnicula! You got it Becky!
<zentao> Fruit Bat.
<Zach> Bunnicula? Isn't that somethign you get off with Dr. Scholl's?
<Chipmonk> Bunnicula the Vampire Bunny.
<BeckyB> Never read it, but It sure looked cute in the store.
<shorty103> never heard of that before
<Casey> That's a new one on me, too.
<Chipmonk> Really funny books i highly recommend them.
<Chipmonk> Funny Zach!
<Crispian> Chipper: Can a chipmonk be evil?
<Chipmonk> Of course not!
<Zach> Crispy, when's the chipmonk's Chipmonk it can <heh>
<shorty103> so you have some rug rats running around the house (children) right chip
<Crispian> I agree Zach
<Chipmonk> Not!
<Chipmonk> So, now who do we guess?
<Crispian> What do you eat Chipper
<Chipmonk> Me? OPr Bunnicula?
<Zach> Stones and water.
<Casey> So, Bunnicula, do you only eat vegetable dyes?
<Crispian> You Chipper
<Chipmonk> Nuts and seeds and fruit and bugs and an occasional bird egg.
<zentao> So bunnicula must be a PC version of a vampire?
<Crispian> Where do the nuts and seeds and fruits and bugs come from
<BeckyB> No, a rabbit version of a vampire.
<Casey> Or a child's introduction to Anne Rice?
<Chipmonk> Bunnicula sucks the color out of vegetables and leaves them all white.
<Crispian> Does that mean bunnicula is evil?
<Zach> Thereby killing the, as the chlorophyll would be all gone. How horrid!
<BeckyB> Nope, just hungry.
<Chipmonk> Or at least that's what Chester the cat who reads too many horror stories and has an overactive imagination thinks.
<Casey> I think we've decided that eating for the sake of remaining alive (sustenance) was not evil.
<Crispian> But it is killing
<Zach> Right, Casey. Just had some M&Ms. Feelin' okay about it.
<Chipmonk> Okay, then every living thing is evil and there's no good.
<Casey> But not murder.
<Zach> No, I am good. It's the rest of you evil beings I'm worried about.
<Casey> And right you should worry, Zach!!!
<Chipmonk> It all evens out in the long run?
<Zach> Oops. Now they know where I am.
<Casey> We're sucking chlorophyll from carrots!
<Chipmonk> So, what are the rest of you tonight?
<Crispian> I'm Neil A
<BeckyB> Actually this has got me thinking. There are quite a few stories about species that must use others to survive. Like in Star Trek with the species that have a desiese that cause them to decay away so they steal others bodies for transfusions. If eating a vegetable and killing it to stay alive is okay, at what point is it wrong to kill to stay alive.
<Zach> I was interested earlier, but a little bored right now.
<Zach> Well, Becky, if you and I are locked in a space capsule and we've been starving for weeks with nothign to eat, well, go watch The Gold Rush to find out what's going to happen. <g>
<Crispian> How about capital punishment! Is that acceptable murder
<Chipmonk> Zach is a mood ring.
<BeckyB> Don't you belive that ladies should eat first? You're the one who is cajun style. :-)
<Crispian> I do Becky
<Chipmonk> How about if you believe it is evil and you want to do it anyway?
<shorty103> :-)
<Crispian> How about an example Chipper
<Casey> Then you would rationalize a way to make the act okay.
<Casey> But at that point, I don't think you would believe it is evil.
<BeckyB> And then feel guilty forever for acting against your beliefs.
<Crispian> Well maybe only a day or two
<zentao> Do any of you consider yourselves to be evil in any given conflict with other?
<Casey> Yes.
<shorty103> no
<Chipmonk> Well if someone told you that stepping on a crack would break your mother's back and you believed it and thought breaking your mother's back was evil and you went around stomping cracks--even though it had no ill effect on your mother.
<zentao> Zach? IN your battle to keep your daughter?
<BeckyB> Sometimes, but usually not until after.
<Chipmonk> I am not evil.
<BeckyB> When you are acting evil, you're usually too prideful to realise it at that point in time.
<Crispian> What if you are acting evil and like it. And then continue
<zentao> what would be the motivation of a child to willfully want to break his mother's back. Is he born with that? Or is the spontaneous act of stepping on the cracks with vigor one based on rage at that parent?
<zentao> And why would a child feel rage at a parent?
<Casey> Or you feel that your actions are justified because your desired outcome is as valid as your opponent's.
<Crispian> Then revenge=evil
<Zach> BRB
<BeckyB> You actually have one I agree with!!!!
<Chipmonk> Cuz she gave you peanut butter and jelly for lunch all week and the other kids laughed at you.
<zentao> BRB. have to help find a lost item.
<BeckyB> Are you saying you've never felt rage at one of your parents? I sure have.
<Crispian> Becky, who are you agreeing with?
<Casey> Yes, Becky, explain that
<Chipmonk> It will be found in the last plac you look--my prediction.'
<BeckyB> Agreeing that in most (can't think of an exception) revenge+evil.
<BeckyB> =
<Casey> That's nearly a sure bet, Chip.
<zentao> Found it.
<Crispian> Rage, another confusing word
<Crispian> does rage mean uncontrollable?
<Chipmonk> And it was in the last place you looked, wasn't it?
<Casey> Rage can be buried anger.
<Casey> Usually is, I think.
<Crispian> But rage resonates more strength than anger
<Zach> Yes, because he found it, Chip. Why look more? <ha>
<zentao> Actually it was the first place I looked.
<shorty103> as the old saying goes, what goes around come around, so in other words, what ever they have done to you it will by some other means be done to them, and not by your own hand
<Crispian> According to who Rose? Just curious
<shorty103> that is what I have heard by those around me
<Crispian> Do sayings originate just justify omission, or do they initiate from truth
<shorty103> yes
<zentao> Who's truth?
<Crispian> anyones truth!
<Zach> I told Rose that, I believe. I believe it, having seen it happen.
<BeckyB> Truth is truth, and none of us knows all of it.
<Casey> Isn't that wishful thinking--to alleviate the desire for active revenge?
<Crispian> I agree Casey
<Crispian> I can't either Chipper. But I can read her words, just teasing
<shorty103> that is true Zach, but I do not wish harm on anyone, but those who have harmed me are getting it back, but not by me
<zentao> Greetings Carol.
<Crispian> Rose, does the fact they are getting harmed, make you feel better
<shorty103> hi Carol
<Crispian> Hello Carol
<BeckyB> hi Carol
<shorty103> no
<Casey> Inevitably, bad things happen to each of us, and when it inevitably happens to our enemy, we rationalize and say, see, that happened because he did this to me way back then.
<Carol> Hello everyone, I am checking my mail so I may not stay on. thanks for asking me to join your chat though. Hello Kim how are you?
<Zach> I'm more weary (and perhaps petty) than you, Rose. Sometimes I am glad.
<Casey> Hello, Carol!!
<Zach> When it happens to someone who has hurt someone I care about. Not sorry, either.
<zentao> The absolutists verses the relativists. Does evil exist in the world. Yes and No.
<BeckyB> I'm sometimes glad too. But then I'm not perfect.
<Crispian> I am too Zach! Sometimes revenge is sweet.
<Zach> Hi, Carol, whoever you are.
<shorty103> what do you mean Zach
<Crispian> Yes, Zen
<Casey> Fine. Still on vacation and hating to see it end.
<Carol> I just got home from my sisters house. Thought I would catch my sister in law on line. Mother in law is ok but cancer is in brain now.
<BeckyB> Actually we all pretty much agreed yes Zen.
<zentao> Evil exists so long a man believes evil exists. Why? Because he then has to create it to make his belief systems valid, no matter how erroneous they may be.
<Zach> My wife was assaulted by a (former) co-worker of mine. Sued the company and they settled, and she got fired and he kept his job--till this year, when he did it yet again. He got fired. Felt great.
<zentao> Well, Becky, somehow that doesn't surprise me.
<BeckyB> Why?
<Carol> I will not interfere with your chat. Just wanted to say hello.
<Carol> Hi zach.
<Zach> Hi, Carol.
<Zach> Welcome.
<zentao> I so sorrt about your Mom in law, Carol.
<zentao> sorry.
<Zach> We are discussing evil, and have not yet begun perpetrating it on one another. Remarkable, eh?
<Carol> thanks zen
<BeckyB> It was before you got here too Chip. That evil does exist.
<zentao> The majority of the world insists upon the existence of good and evil, of pubishment and reward systems.
<Zach> Evil exists, friends, because we define it so. This is a human thing and a human discussion, and we get to make those definitions.
<zentao> But is it real?
<Zach> It is real if we define it as such.
<BeckyB> It's real to me.
<Casey> You're not interfering, Carol. The more the merrier.
<Zach> We probably disagree on the details, however; another human thing.
<shorty103> yes, I can see your point there, there is justise there, but in my case, I can't find it in my heart to be glad or sad that he is getting back what he has dished out to tohers like me
<zentao> yes.
<BeckyB> If it isn't real to you then there is no way for me to change your mind.
<Carol> have a good night folks, I gotta go. Happy Halloween!!!!
<Casey> Am very sorry to hear about your Mother-in-law.
<Zach> There is no such thing as justice after a misdeed has occurred, as that would imply that it could be somehow removed or that it didn't happen in the first place. Only retribution or recompense.
<Zach> Bye, Carol.
<BeckyB> Good point Zach.
<Crispian> justice and law, two complete items
<Crispian> What is justice?
<Zach> Exactly, Becky, but you don't have to change anyone's mind. Why? Persuasion may change a viewpoint, but only the other can initiate and bring it about. They used to torture people to change their minds, let's not forget. That works.
<shorty103> yes, I understand what you mean, I just didn't know how to say it like you just did. Not that smart yet.
<BeckyB> What do you think justice is Cripian?
<zentao> The necessity of creating evil and good, God and some anti-god is a human need. It is not based upon the natural world or natural system, but instead upon the fundamental need. and I do not want to go deeper than that because it will just wind up causing conflict.
<Zach> The best we can do, IMO, is try to acquire and maintain and improve our own system of ethical behavior. Define evil however you like, and if I dont' agree I'll try to stay out of your way.
<Crispian> Becky, I am not sure anymore. The older I become, the less justice I see
<Casey> Is that a fundamental need to bring order or understanding to a world that is basically incomprehensible?
<Zach> And I am less certain of human things as I grow older. Especially right and wrong, in the clear-cut sense. Much complexity.
<Zach> Sure, Casey. Humans do prefer a sense of stability and comfort, without change.
<Crispian> Very much Zach
<zentao> How is the world incomprehensible? Do you mean human actions seem incomprehensible? Or that chance happenings -- an earthquake happening nearby that kills your loved one -- must somehow be rationalized?
<Casey> I was thinking more along the lines of understanding or explaining the "why" something occurs, Zach.
<Zach> I mean that human interaction and right and wrong and notions of exactness in the right and wrong are almost impossible to sort through. Even those things directly impacting us are hard to see in their entirety.
<shorty103> I must admit, this has been an eye opener for me.
<Casey> The earthquake happening---why the world exists in the first place. Why am I alive? those kinds of questions.
<zentao> Right and wrong are based upon decisions of morality in human society.
<Chipmonk> Humans attempt to predict and control the unpredictable and uncontrolable.
<Zach> We also tend to try and apply principles of physics to human interactions.
<Zach> Say, was Becky mad?
<Crispian> I don't think so
<Casey> There seems a need in us to do so, Chip.
<Crispian> Is it a need Casey, or the fact that we have been taught everything happens for a reason
<Zach> You can't apply physics to human interaction. Doesn't work. No wonder the social sciences are such vague and largely unworkable realms.
<Casey> We've lost very few people tonight. We were overdue for a server glitz.
<zentao> Humans are creatures trying to insulate themselves against discomfort.
<Zach> True, zen.
<Crispian> Agreed
<Zach> Nothing like a good shot of Pepto Bismol now and then.
<shorty103> I am learning things about myself, my feeling towards things that I had never really thought of before, wow!
<Crispian> and trying to create imortality
<Zach> No matter how much of the rain forest has to go.
<Zach> Watch out, Rose, these sessions can be dangerous <g>
<shorty103> no kidding
<Crispian> So why do we care when it is too late?
<zentao> And there is an intrinsic need to be able to depend upon the existence of some greater all-powerful big daddy in the sky that, if you are good enough, is going to take care of you and ensure your safety in succumbing to the one thing that cannot be thwarted: death.
<Zach> Too late for what?
<Crispian> Why don't we get concerned enough to stop the destruction of the rain forest. And then when we see the results we wish we could change it.
<shorty103> but it is a great excerise for me, it really gets me to think of who I am as a person and why I feel about things the way that I do
<Zach> I have no illusion of that, zen (as you know). We're here. We die. In my darkest moments, no amount of prayer changed a thing. I quit trying once I figured out that the Jews prayed real hard to stay out of the ovens and gas chambers, and still went in. What right did I have to ask for a few bucks to pay my bills?
<Zach> Think of the rain forest as an issue that you could not possibly change, Crisp, since it is tied up in politics and maintaining wealth for some very wealthy people who will manage that no matter what it takes. That's what drives the world.
<Casey> The rain forests are being destroyed by dirt poor farmers concerned with sustenance to keep living.
<Crispian> The key Zach, money!
<Zach> You don't think that is the primary and underlying cause, do you, Casey?
<Casey> Do we blame them for wanting to live?
<Crispian> Casey, the destruction of the rain forest is being done by big commercial companies
<Casey> No, there are lots of other issues involved.
<Casey> for parmaceuticals, yes.
<Casey> pharmacetuicals.
<Zach> Where were these dirt farmers a hundred years ago? Were there alternatives whcih have been eliminated by the wealth-maintainers? I suspect that is the answer.
<Casey> oh well, butcher that word!
<Crispian> We understand want you mean though Casey
<Casey> All good points.
<Zach> If you know of a single pharmaceutical that is capable of leveling tens of thousands of acres of rain forest (don't repeat what the media tell you, they lie constantly), I'd seriously like to know. We tend to superimpose the taxol example over the rain forest, when they are two distinctly different things.
<Zach> Taxol is a chemical compound, and can certainly be synthesized. Same holds true for any other. Watch for diversionary tactics by those who are acting to preserve wealth amid poverty.
<Casey> I suspect the pharamecutical companies are trying to preserve the rain forests. Their livelihood lies therein.
<Crispian> The rain forests are being harvested for timber. Timber than can be sold
<Casey> And burned for land.
<Crispian> Yes
<Zach> I suspect the pharmaceutical companies, which are public corps run by lawyers and accountants, are organisms and will do whatever it takes to survive--no morality there, remember that IG Farben is still in business today, though it was a Nazi agent in WWII.
<zentao> Human systems are incompatible with natural systems.
<Zach> What type of human systems, zen?
<Casey> Welcome Crip!
<crip> hey
<Crispian> Hello Crip
<Zach> Hi, crip.
<zentao> Greetings Crip.
<zentao> Human systems that are based upon the idea that nature is the to-be-feared enemy.
<shorty103> that is a toss up, on one hand, they need the rain forrest to help them find new medines, but yet the local people are burning to survive. where will it end if at all.
<Chipmonk> Hi crip.
<Crispian> So if our stories challenge the status quo, will that make them less likely to be published?
<shorty103> hi crip
<Zach> When I die, the worms will eat me. At that point I will be completely compatible with the natural system.
<zentao> No. Because your body is embalmed with formaldehyde, making you unpalatable to the worms.
<Casey> Wouldn't you return to the natural system, Zach? Food for the worms,
<Zach> If your story challenges the status quo, it'll either be published or not. Just don't step on wealthy toes in the process.
<Zach> Yep, Casey. My ultimate goal.
<Zach> But I will go somewhere, zen. Even the mummies aren't as fresh as when they wrapped 'em, so something got the good stuff <heh>
<Zach> Itty bitty mircroorganisms. Little corporations. <laughs>
<Crispian> Ah Za ch, the undisclosed world of the undertakers
<shorty103> the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, is there any happy middle
<zentao> Are you then saying that you percieve yourself to be your body?
<zentao> Why do the rich get ricker and the poor get poorer?
<Casey> I certainly don't
<Zach> The best system for the rich is a healthy pseudo "middle class," lots of people who pay all the taxes and get to drive SUVs and watch football on TV. Ahhhhh.
<Crispian> Because were not evil enough to change it
<Zach> Oh, I am my thoughts, zen. During sex I am a healthy dose body, however.
<zentao> and when the brain dies?
<Chipmonk> So, if you are in a coma, Zach, do you cease to exist?
<Zach> You go to Washington and serve on some subcommittee or other.
<zentao> yes. I do go braindead at that time.
<Chipmonk> Lol!
<zentao> Agreed.
<Zach> No, not coma as I understand the term. Persistent vegetative state, you bet!
<Casey> Good one, Zach.
<Crispian> Well All, I think its time for Crispy, Neil A, to bid ye tidings. This body is not a very happy camper tonight
<shorty103> some times, some where, someone is stepping on the little guy to get what he needs, if that little guy refuses to give in, harm comes to him, to me that is evil
<Zach> You are a card, zen!
<Chipmonk> But there's is a special kind of brain dead because the mouths still work.
<Zach> So long, Crispy. It was major fun.
<Crispian> Same back Zach
<zentao> I'm a grog tonight.
<Casey> Glad you could make it, Crispian. Come back again.
<Crispian> Wouldn't miss it for the World.
<shorty103> bye to who is leaving
<Crispian> Later All
<Zach> Yeah, I remember that Mark Twain said, "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Congressman. But I repeat myself.
<zentao> Would rather all stayed and we tripped over to Silver quill for the halloween party.
<Zach> Silver quill?
<Chipmonk> Night Crispy.
<shorty103> what!
<zentao> Antoher writers forum on Delphi. I post there sometimes.
<Casey> If you'll do the honors and pass out the URL.
<shorty103> never heard of Silver quill
<shorty103> or is that from NovelAdvice
<shorty103> is anybody out there
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