CHAT ARCHIVE - 7-25-98, Developing Story Depth

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Jul 26 00:42:42 1998

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<Chipmonk> Hail, hail!
<Casey> Ahhhh. Live people again!
<Casey> Thank you, chip. You are an excellent sysop.
<Chipmonk> I blush.
<Crip> *clapping*
<Casey> Did anyone get my adrenalin theory?
<Chipmonk> No.
<Casey> I'm seriously interested and curious.
<Casey> In my experience, when in the middle of a crisis situation, I have never shook, and I believe it is because of the adrenalin rush. Have you had any similar experiences?
<Crip> never? does hyperventilating count as shaking?
<Chipmonk> I shake afterward, when the rush is over.
<Crip> how many crisis have you been in Casey???
<Casey> I'm trying to think if I've hyperventilated, and I don't recall doing that either.
<Casey> The worst was a mugging.
<Crip> oh jeez
<Crip> you didn't shake? Wow
<Crip> I didn't shake I was too busy being hurt
<Casey> Adrenalin did make my mind extremely clear and allowed me to assess everything that was going on in high speed. It was very interesting.
<Crip> That's some adrenalin!
<Casey> Because of it, I believe I scared my mugger as much as he scared me. It was funny afterwards.
<Crip> sheesh
<Chipmonk> Did your sense of time change?
<Casey> I didn't shake until the next day when the police were questioning me and I'd had time to think about what could have happened.
<Crip> I wasn't exactly mugged, more like attacked, it felt like everything was in slow motion
<Crip> I bet
<Casey> Everything seemed to take a long time to resolve.
<Casey> I really had no conception of how long the mugging took.
<Chipmonk> Isn't that the weirdest thing how time changes?
<Casey> Time passage never entered into the equation.
<Crip> its always faster than one thinks
<Chipmonk> I mean the slow motion.
<Casey> Yes. I would love to be able to keep the mental acuity!
<Casey> What were your physical reactions to your attack, Crip?
<Chipmonk> I've had situations that you know would be very fast but they take forever to get through and you have time to even think about how odd that is while you're dealing with the situation.
<Crip> well I was 14, 15? I don't remember and my cousin was 17, they were whaling on him pretty bad and I was standing a ways from them. I just felt frozen for the most part and then I turned around and some kids started punching me and I felt nothing
<Casey> That's the other oddity--the lack of physical pain.
<Crip> it felt better than the fear, that was strange
<Crip> rather have it happening than think about what could or would happen
<Chipmonk> What emotion did you feel during, Crip?
<Crip> just frozen in place... I was devoid of emotion
<Casey> Yes. Our imaginations are worse than reality, aren't they?
<Crip> truly
<Casey> It makes me understand how a person can be truly dangerous when cornered or attacked.
<Casey> How 98 lbs., 4'11" women can lift cars off their trapped child.
<Crip> someone never knows what they'll do in a situation like that. There is no training no matter how much self defense one knows
<Crip> adrenaline rush
<Chipmonk> Yes, makes you wonder about juries and lawyers who may have never felt such a reaction.
<Crip> that's justice for ya
<Casey> Exactly, Chip. Or makes you wonder if they must deliberately poo-poo the physiological reactions they've experienced just to win cases.
<Chipmonk> Yes.
<Casey> Which cleverly brings us back to topic.
<Chipmonk> So, now Crip do you know how to write horrified?
<Crip> I try
<Crip> yeah
<Crip> this was good
<Chipmonk> You tap into that experience you had as a teenager.
<Casey> We've discussed the girl who found the baby. Do we want to tackle the teen parent(s) themselves?
<Crip> ok
<Crip> the girl didn't care
<Crip> I think
<Casey> I don't believe that is true. I believe she cared more about all the wrong things.
<Crip> oh I see what you mean
<Crip> what did she care about then?
<Crip> herself?
<Crip> others reactions?
<Chipmonk> I think she had months to care and worry until finally that part of her mind shut down.
<ez> she only wanted to have a good time at the prom.....wanted nothing to ruin it...
<Casey> Those things are there for us to try to figure out now.
<Casey> I think it went further than a one night good time at the prom, too.
<Crip> just getting rid a part of her life
<Casey> I have not seen any pictures of her, so I have to make up a personal image of her.
<Chipmonk> Cleopatra, Queen of denial.
<Crip> LOL
<Casey> Yes! A total inability to envision the life inside her as a viable human being, I would have to believe.
<Casey> Sort of a convincing herself to believe that maybe the child will be stillborn.
<Casey> Or if it doesn't live long, then it never was born?
<Casey> Some odd connection or identification with abortion--her way.
<Chipmonk> How did she kill it?
<Casey> Do you guys have another way of looking at it?
<Casey> I'm not really certain, but I though I'd heard: repeated blows to the head.
<Casey> Drowning is a possibility.
<Crip> I don't think she killed it as murder, I think it just died because as soon as she pushed it out she tossed it
<Crip> no let me rephrase
<Casey> But babies have lived for hours in dumpsters--been found and survived.
<Crip> true
<ez> I think the child was strangled
<Crip> oh really? ok
<Casey> I think it's generally agreed that the child was live born and killed.
<ez> I'm not sure.....but I remember marks on the neck from the autopsy
<Casey> (I'm getting chills now.)
<Casey> There are many ways the child could have been killed. Smothering is another possibility, for fictional purposes.
<Crip> I agree, Casey
<ez> true...covering the mouth and nose to prevent crying.....then it dies....
<Casey> But we return to motive. WHY did she do this thing?
<Crip> to not have to ever worry about it
<Casey> What benefit does she gain?
<Crip> no baby
<Crip> no worries
<Casey> Yes, she does not have the responsibility of an infant/son/daughter.
<Crip> what benefits?
<Casey> Like, as long as she's single, she's attractive to the opposite sex.
<Casey> Teen boys usually aren't attracted to teen mothers.
<Crip> oh I get it.
<Casey> That's too much responsibility for them.
<Crip> yeah I see that
<Crip> her social life remains intact
<Casey> Yes.
<Casey> What else does she gain or simply maintain?
<Crip> friends, no freaking out parents
<Casey> How do her parents come into this, because they do.
<ez> she could be scared of her parent's reaction...
<Casey> Yes. Perhaps she's been threatened (hypothetically) by them in the past. "You ever get pregnant and you're out of here."
<Casey> No child assures her of a place to live.
<ez> or she could just have the common teenaged misconception about her parents..that they wouldn't love her anymore..
<Casey> Very good point. Loss of love is an extremely powerful motivation.
<Casey> Excellent point!
<Crip> so basically her life depends on not having this kid
<ez> she might think college would be out of the question...her future ruined..her plans...teenagers always have plans and dreams..
<Casey> In her mind, it must. And she must not be able to conceive of alternative lifestyles with a child.
<Casey> Or consider the alternatives so repugnant, that any consequences of murder is worth the risk.
<Crip> this is great, I always get confused when people say you have to plan out a person's life in writing but this makes sense
<ez> or she wasn't thinking of it as murder....just solving a problem...
<Casey> That's the really scary part to me about this whole episode, ez. That murder isn't viewed as murder.
<Crip> there's a higher definition of murder anymore
<Crip> its all complex
<Casey> television and books and media downplay the awesome impact of murder.
<Casey> The courts decide "levels" or "categories" of murder.
<Casey> Murder I. Murder II--more justified. Self-defense. etc.
<Chipmonk> Did she even think at the time or just react?
<Crip> probably both
<Casey> Her thoughts leading up to that night must have been extremely confusing. Then when the even happens, I can almost envision her panicking.
<Casey> Awful timing.
<Chipmonk> I mean, if you thought about it, wouldn't you realize you couldn't get away with it for long?
<ez> I don't think she panicked......she did what she felt she had to do to maintain life as she knows it.
<Casey> It was so public a place, who could ever know if she handled it right?
<Chipmonk> And going through childbirth alone in the bathroom?
<Crip> when someone's in that situation they force themselves to think positive so they think they'll get away with it at any cost
<Casey> And how long was she in the bathroom???
<Crip> 20 minutes I believe
<Casey> When/where did her water break?
<Crip> during the dance
<Chipmonk> And no other girls came in, is strange.
<Crip> it was the middle of the dance I doubted there would be anyone in there
<Casey> yes, were there accomplices--girls guarding the door, keeping others out?
<Crip> maybe there were
<Casey> In a girls room?! You've never been in a girls room, Crip.
<Casey> It's almost a social gathering place.
<Crip> I'm not a girl, so sue me. *L*
<Chipmonk> That's where you go to discuss the guys.
<Casey> I've been in a boy's room and I'm not a boy.
<Chipmonk> And girls don' usually go alone.
<Casey> (all those funny looking fixtures . . .)
<Crip> boys rooms are cleaner that's the only difference
<Crip> heh heh
<Casey> ah-hah! So you have been in the girls room. Truth comes out!
<Crip> I've cleaned them before. yes
<Casey> You, ez? We're not forgetting your presence.
<ez> I've cleaned my share of both ;-)
<Casey> That's as much confession as we require. thank you.
<Chipmonk> See? If you were writing this story you'd have to go hang out in the girls room for research.
<Crip> yeah and get arrested
<Casey> So, for 20 minutes, her date is doing what? Eating cookies?
<Crip> pushing the kid out
<Casey> Carry a mop. The cops won't arrest someone with a mop.
<Crip> that does take a while
<Crip> you can't usually be in there if anyone else of the opposite sex is
<Chipmonk> I'll remember that next time I plan a heist.
<Casey> Bathroom robbery. Lucrative business.
<Casey> Was her date the father of this baby?
<Casey> Anyone know?
<Chipmonk> Stealing the purses off the hooks.
<Crip> I didn't think she brought that person along
<Crip> or was even there
<Casey> I was under the impression that she was with someone other than the child's father.
<Crip> I think you're right
<Chipmonk> I wonder what people said to him after.
<Casey> So, what does she tell this boy she's with?
<Casey> I have cramps, I'll be back as soon as the aspirin kicks in?
<Crip> probably
<Casey> And he believes that line because he's . . . 18? and doesn't question womanly happenings?
<Crip> he's a man, that's enough reasoning
<Crip> who's only interested in one thing
<Chipmonk> Do girls that age ever tell boys they have cramps?
<Crip> yes they do
<Casey> That surprises me! Guess I'm old-fashioned. We would have died first before admitting that to a boy.
<Crip> back in the 30's, women were different
<Casey> ha ha ha!
<Chipmonk> Menstruation was a big secret, more so than sex.
<Chipmonk> My daughter wouldn't buy her own sanitary supplies for along time.
<Crip> yuckie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Crip> ewwwwwwww
<Casey> For just those kinds of male reactions.
<Chipmonk> Now we know why we don't talk about it in front of them, eh, Casey?
<Casey> It's too embarrassing for a teen, who is very sensitive to embarrassing situations. Heck, at that age, even our mothers are embarrassments.
<Casey> Yes, indeed, Chip.
<Casey> Their stomachs are too delicate.
<Chipmonk> When I was in the army the male sergeants wanted us to hide that stuff before locker inspections.
<Crip> u were in the army, chip???
<Chipmonk> Yes.
<Crip> wow
<Chipmonk> Communications.
<Casey> I can believe that. About hiding the stuff.
<Chipmonk> They tied messages to my tail and I'd burrow under the enemy line.
<Crip> *L*
<Casey> And you were never caught, right?
<Chipmonk> Yeah, what's nasty about a nice clean box of tampons? Dirty ones I could understand.
<Crip> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
<Crip> *fainted dead away*
<Chipmonk> See!
<Casey> He faints from the implied and direct connotations, not from the objects themselves.
<Casey> Whack! Reality right over the head.
<Chipmonk> So if you can't say you're on your period, are you gonna say, excuse me, my water broke.
<Crip> excuse me for being a male
<Casey> Or, darn this diahhrea!
<Crip> oh big deal
<Chipmonk> Excuse me you're slip is showing and you seem to be leaking amniotic fluid on the floor.
<Casey> Oh, it's not exclusive to males, Crip, believe me. Females are weird about the same thing, too.
<Crip> guys are afraid of things they know nothing about
<Crip> no they aren't. From experience women aren't weird about much except their looks
<Casey> Weird in a different way from males.
<Casey> Anyway, I see the whole situation at the prom as sort of a parallel to incest. Everyone has a suspicion about what might be going on, but it's too horrible to let oneself realize.
<Casey> So everyone kept their distance, didn't want to get involved enough to know the truth, and were horrified afterward.
<Crip> yup
<Casey> There's the denial. No, that REALLY can't be what's happening. No one would do that.
<Casey> So whatever half baked excuses are offered are accepted, because they are more palatable than the truth.
<Jen> Hello everyone!
<Chipmonk> Another female POV.
<Crip> hi jen
<Crip> nobody wants to accept the truth in such situations
<Casey> Boy, did you come into the middle of a really weird discussion!
<Jen> Girls who have babies during prom? Sounds like a Jerry Springer show. <g>
<Chipmonk> I told her the topic.
<Casey> And she came anyway. Jen, your stomach is strong. I admire you.
<Chipmonk> I think Cobre is coming in too so save explanations.
<Jen> ha. I'm finishing the story I've been finishing all week. Taking another break, I'm going slow on this one.
<Casey> Welcome, Cobre!
<Cobre> Hello.
<Chipmonk> Now you can give a summation Casey.
<Casey> We are discussing the girl who gave birth at a prom, then killed her baby and went back to the dance.
<Cobre> Hi. Some of you I'm not sure I have met before, but, pleased to meet and all that!
<Cobre> Ow. That's disgusting.
<Chipmonk> Now explain the context!
<Casey> We've listed all the people we could think of who would have been affected by this situation. The baby, the teens and their parents, the rescue personnel, the teens parents, etc.
<Casey> We are devising motivations and gains of the teen mother right now.
<Casey> for murdering her child.
<Casey> It's an effort to show how depth is developed in a story. Any facts we don't know, we are making up.
<Casey> Which is a lot. Our ignorance is vast.
<Jen> I read People, does that help? I know most of the story.
<Cobre> Well, the baby would interfere with her chosen lifestyle is one I heard from one case. Isn't that sad?
<Chipmonk> We had to tell Crip about ladies' room rituals.
<Crip> *shudder* make it stop
<Casey> Because we understood the girl was gone for 20 mins.
<Jen> oh, poor Crip!
<Cobre> Ladies room rituals? Is this something I should be doing? what? How to wipe yourself the wrong way or how do you mean?
<Casey> We were wondering about rationales given for her absence, and why no other girls entered the bathroom for 20 mins.
<Chipmonk> Like girls hanging out in the washroom together to discuss the boys.
<Casey> Which we felt was odd, so there was probably one or more accomplices.
<Jen> There was one girl, but she didn't say anything to her evidently.
<Cobre> I'm sorry. But how could she be in labor at the prom?
<Casey> I wondered when her water broke!
<Jen> Could have been why she ended up in the bathroom.
<Chipmonk> She must have had a very short labor and delivery.
<Casey> How does one disguise that much pain on one's face?
<Chipmonk> And consider the hormones and pain?
<Casey> And how come nobody wondered about the miraculous diet that happened in 20 mins. time?
<Cobre> First, can I ask? Did this really happen? You know, we don't watch news around here.
<Jen> Yes, it really happened.
<Casey> Yes, it is an actual event.
<Chipmonk> How much did she know about the process she was going through?
<Jen> How old was she?
<Casey> And did complications factor into her thinking?
<Crip> 18?
<Casey> At a prom--16, 17 or 18?
<Cobre> Well, okay. Was this a miscarriage?
<Casey> No, actual live birth.
<Chipmonk> Maybe she tried to pull it out?
<Jen> She should have known, but... some kids are still naive
<Casey> What an awful thought!
<Crip> I think you're right chip
<Cobre> EZ, you are awfully quiet.
<Chipmonk> That would kill it accidentally.
<Chipmonk> He can't believe he's here.
<Casey> ez, have we lost you?
<Jen> Odds are, when she figured out what was happening, she tried to pretend nothing was really happening, and made herself believe it enough to do what she did.
<ez> no.....i'm still here.........
<ez> just taking everything in about the topic.......
<Casey> Good. ICQ drops people, so we get a little nervous when you're quiet for too long.
<Casey> Another thing that Crip mentioned earlier is all the blood.
<Casey> None got on her dress?
<Jen> drenched in it, I believe, is what they said.
<Jen> black dress
<Crip> I think she washed it off
<Chipmonk> She probably sat on the toilet.
<Casey> The black dress makes sense. So there was forethought and planning involved.
<Cobre> You know, some women don't have a "big slash" when they break water and they also don't have a lot of blood.. Just the afterbirth and the baby.
<Cobre> So how did she kill the baby? Or was is DOA?
<Jen> It drowned
<Casey> labor varies by woman and child's birth, too, even to the same woman.
<Chipmonk> Could be it was the in color that year too.
<Cobre> IN THE TOILET?
<Jen> Yes, black is in.
<Jen> I believe so, but I'm not sure. Didn't she stuff it in the toliet? Isn't that where they found it?
<Casey> So, a lucky coincidence to be fashionable when one murders.
<Cobre> Well, is this about plotting out some writing? I could make some neat weird sounds and I have lyrics running a little.
<Jen> Yeah. Lucky for her, but not for her kid.
<Chipmonk> Tell us lyrics!
<Cobre> I'm not writing them down as they spin.
<Crip> no sounds, I feel sick enough already
<Casey> It's about achieving depth in story telling. Having motivation, secondary characters and their roles, depth of story, that sort of thing.
<Casey> Not simply actions, but everything that goes into making a story have emotional impact.
<Chipmonk> We already went through the horror of finding the corpse.
<Cobre> Would you be trying to substantiate the reasons why she did this from her perspective or what? Zen always talks about motivations.
<Casey> Yes, we touched on that some already.
<Cobre> Okay, but it probably wouldn't be a story I would read.
<Casey> What she preserves by murdering her baby. What she risks.
<Cobre> Sounds boring.
<Cobre> It sounds like some incident in the life of a yuppie's kid.
<Jen> well, pretty much, I think, she was
<Chipmonk> We're trying out different character's point of view too, like her date.
<Cobre> There's enough I guess for a song, but nothing really out of the ordinary considering that kids are murdered at birth all the time in other places in the world.
<Casey> To develop this incident into a story, there would have to also be a point to be made in writing it.
<Cobre> Oooo. I just had a nasty thought. He licked it up!
<Crip> oh god...........
<Casey> ewwwww! (to quote Crip's earlier remark.)
<Cobre> Now that would make the rest of the song.
<Jen> teenage vampires. ick.
<Cobre> No. Not vampires.
<Casey> closer to cannibalism.
<Casey> my ewwwwww remains.
<Jen> ghouls. still ick. <g>
<Cobre> Just somebody who liked licking up vaginal blood and all that. Some weirdo. I mean there are those kinds you know.
<Chipmonk> I was thinking about the boys at the dance and their reactions.
<Jen> I don't think her date was the father
<Chipmonk> All the dead baby, sick humor running rampant.
<Casey> Do teenage boys identify with the children they father?
<Crip> thank you cobre. my appetite is gone for the next year
<Casey> That's not precisely what I'm trying to ask, but it's close.
<Cobre> The one in the Kung fu class does care, but he can't see his kid except every other weekend and he gets really upset.
<Jen> It is usually thought to be the girl's fault. Guys don't have the evidence.
<Jen> sorry, bear the evidence.
<Jen> But there are exceptions.
<Cobre> That was a pun, jen. :-)
<Cobre> "Bear the evidence?"
<Casey> And this baby was not only two teens' offspring, but the grandchild of the teens' parents.
<Jen> yah. I'm in an odd mood tonight. have vampires on the brain.
<Casey> That's understandable, Jen.
<Jen> too true
<Casey> So, if this girl was believing that her actions affected only herself, she was absolutely wrong.
<ez> good night everyone....it's been interesting.....talk to you next time.....
<Crip> night ez
<Cobre> How many people think about how their actions affect other people?
<Chipmonk> Can you imagine having the whole world know that your child is so afraid to tell you she's pregnant that she would rather commit murder?
<Jen> but teenagers are notoriously self-centered.
<Casey> Her actions impacted the whole United States, in the end.
<Cobre> I got pregnant when I was a teen and I didn't tell my parents. Nope. Not. Wouldn't do it. They would have killed me.
<Casey> Exactly, Cobre. Most people are of the opinion that what they do only affects themselves.
<Cobre> I just went an had an illegal abortion.
<Casey> But if there is even one person who loves that perpetrator, then that is not true.
<Cobre> So what would be the point of telling this story. Just to try to shock?
<Chipmonk> Could be many reasons.
<Cobre> I mean, I don't know. It sounds to me like another this happened then this happened and this is how they felt about it and this is the reaction of the crowd story.
<Casey> To discourage other teens from doing the same? To show that there are alternative and better ways of handling the situation are two reasons that immediately come to mind.
<Jen> you took the words right out of my mouth, Casey.
<Casey> People often do things under the impression that they are breaking new ground, they operate in isolation.
<Cobre> Maybe it was the Baby's karma and the girls? And maybe it was meant to happen? Maybe if the kid had lived, something worse would have happened in the world. who knows? And who are we to judge what is right and wrong?
<Casey> We haven't even considered the right and wrong angle.
<Chipmonk> We don't. We're exploring angles.
<Crip> just fleshing out characters and the situation
<Casey> That is a personal viewpoint, based on one's own history and experience and moral ethics.
<Chipmonk> How about telling it from the point of view of the person who was planning to take up a life as this baby?
<Cobre> Well, you said discourage. Besides, what makes one blob of protoplastic whine more important than another? We kill babies all the time and even eat them live. No biggy? why worry about this? Because it is human?
<Jen> as in reincarnated, Chip? Now that would be interesting.
<Casey> Because it could have been you. Then count the world's loss from there.
<Crip> or even in the womb to the event of the end of its life
<Chipmonk> Only to be strangled in a toilet!
<Cobre> Hell, that wouldn't have been no loss, Casey.
<Chipmonk> What Karma brought that on?
<Casey> zen- would certainly, vehemently disagree.
<Cobre> zen- and I disagree a lot.
<Casey> And I've heard your music. I would strongly disagree.
<Cobre> It isn't my music. Damn you, Casey. I warned you.
<Cobre> Bye now.
<Casey> Now your suggestions are bringing in the elements of SF and/or fantasy.
<Crip> sheesh
<Casey> She plays in the band!!!
<Casey> I will apologize.
<Casey> Poor Cobre!
<Crip> Poor Cobre?
<Casey> She feels like she doesn't belong here, and now I've alienated her.
<Casey> Darn, darn, darn.
<Crip> you have too much of a conscience, granny
<Casey> Maybe my downfall, but I don't wish to change.
<Crip> ok
<Chipmonk> Okay, back to the story.
<Casey> Moment to recover footing and thought.
<Casey> We were bringing in the elements that would make take this story into the fictional genres of SF and fantasy. By making the story the baby's, and not the parent's.
<Crip> how so?
<Crip> i mean into SF and fantasy
<Jen> I like the reincarnation idea. Was going to say that perhaps the person being reincarnated had killed her baby in about the same way. just an idea
<Crip> oooh I like that Jen
<Casey> That's how, Crip.
<Casey> transcending the what happened, making it what might have been had the baby lived.
<Chipmonk> I think it would be too obvious.
<Crip> ok
<Casey> Or even the idea that this child would have been another Hitler had it lived.
<Chipmonk> Lived before.
<Crip> anybody
<Jen> but that would also be a vicious cycle, so maybe the spirit should attempt to stop the death? Cause she knows what would happen. I don't know, just grasping at straws here.
<Chipmonk> Hey, how about was Hitler and has to come back and die in childbirth for every baby that died in the Holocaust?
<Jen> now that would definitely be hellish.
<Casey> But I personally don't like giving justification to individuals who murder.
<Jen> no.
<Chipmonk> And she was Eva Braun.
<Crip> nope
<Casey> Now that would be ironic!
<Casey> But I don't think I would open the book with the murder.
<Casey> As an opening scene, the reader has no emotional connection to the murdered. It is just an event, period. The few times I have ever murdered a character, I made darn sure that the reader felt that death as a terrible blow.
<Crip> are they always innocents, Casey? or you just like to put in the emotional impact?
<Jen> yes, Casey. I know what you mean about killing characters.
<Casey> No, one definitely deserved to die. But his death had long and far reaching impact throughout the rest of the book, nevertheless.
<Crip> ok
<Casey> Lives are too often depicted as throwaways, which is the attitude that could have allowed the real life murder we've been discussing tonight.
<Casey> How many of us feel that we could happily have died 10 years ago?
<Casey> Even when dying, life struggles to continue.
<Chipmonk> That could be the point of the book too. To show how cold and callous our society is.
<Casey> It's our nature to want to live.
<Jen> truth, Casey. It is.
<Crip> even now in the 90's?
<Jen> yes, Chip. Seems that way sometimes.
<Casey> I think how we view the quality of our lives change, but for the most part, we do want to live.
<Jen> Why die and miss out on all the fun of life? Might not be fun all the time, but it's worth the trouble, methinks.
<Chipmonk> The press who just want the story. Parents who are embarrassed by what that awful daughter did to their reputations.
<Jen> Yes. And the repercussions. The copycats.
<Casey> Exactly, Jen. The copycats are scary.
<Jen> Like the ones who just got sentenced.
<Casey> It's sometimes seen as a way for "nobody" to become "somebody" without the work of education, physical labor, etc. that true role models must suffer to gain recognition, and a lot of times, not even then.
<Casey> rock stars make headlines overnight.
<Jen> True again.
<Casey> Fame must be easy or why bother.
<Casey> One murder, and you're instantly world famous.
<Jen> Yes! You won't believe how many times someone has said that to me, about fame.
<Casey> So, you do prison time. Is it worth it? Only the individual can decide that for him/herself
<Crip> oh whew I thought you meant about murder jen *L*
<Jen> But is it just this society today or are we just better informed about events around us?
<Crip> better informed
<Jen> This isn't a new problem.
<Casey> Not at all. It's been a very longstanding problem.
<Jen> Hey, Crip, I only murder fictional characters. <g>
<Crip> ok that's fine
<Casey> Shakespeare dealt with the same kinds of problems we struggle with. The Greeks did, thousands of years ago.
<Jen> Every once in a while, that is.
<Casey> lol, Jen!
<Crip> just different people and ways but the same problems
<Casey> Our clothing changes, our means of communicating change, but the basic human problems remain.
<Jen> Yeah. And we can go on and on about how 'enlightened' we are in this day and age, but it's not really much different. Violence has always been part of our world; the ones with the violent tendencies just now have better weapons.
<Crip> I don't know about enlightened. We're still pretty much the same stupid race but with more toys.
<Jen> well, that works too. :-)
<Jen> I mean, here we are communicating through computers, instantly. In different states. (well, some of us, at least). Sometimes it still boggles my mind that because of instant gratification, no one wants to wait anymore.
<Casey> True, Jen. Patience is not considered a virtue.
<Casey> Everything is instant, beginning with food and working upward.
<Crip> yup
<Jen> Email is instant. We call regular mail snail mail, cause it takes 3-5 days to get to where it's going. But think about a hundred years ago. (well, actually, the local mail was probably better, but it took months sometimes.)
<Casey> Including housing.
<Jen> Yes.
<Crip> there was more value to simple things
<Casey> So why not instant fame? instant family (adoption)?
<Jen> A baby didn't fit into her 'life', into her 'plan'. She wasn't a mother, she was a teenager, ergo, no baby.
<Crip> someone would have found out
<Jen> There were less 'things' in general.
<Casey> There's a theory that oftentimes criminals want to be found out.
<Jen> But she thought she'd get away with it. Perhaps she wanted the attention, too.
<Jen> True, Casey.
<Casey> they unconsciously leave obvious clues in order to be caught so that someone else will take control of their out-of-control lives and restore a sanity they can't achieve on their own.
<Crip> but she pretended nothing happened
<Jen> Yeah. I've seen that happen.
<Casey> But if she left the baby in the toilet, that's not even covering it up in the trash can!
<Casey> The only more obvious thing to do would have been to carry its body out onto the dance floor.
<Crip> true
<Casey> I see an awful lot of confusion inside her head.
<Jen> Callous and cold. That's what it seems like to me, that she didn't care. To her it wasn't a baby, it was a hunk of meat. Once it was in the toliet, it no longer existed in her mind. Until someone found it.
<Casey> wanting honesty and fearing its ramifications.
<Jen> Yes, complete and utter confusion.
<Casey> needing someone else to take control of her life and fearing the consequences if they do so.
<Casey> I wouldn't be surprised if her immediate reaction to being discovered wasn't fear, but relief.
<Jen> to do something like that takes a lot of desperation. Desperation for what I don't know, but you'd have to be desperate for something to do what she did.
<Casey> That's why the first things we considered were what she got out of doing what she did. What benefits did she gain?
<Jen> Didn't she collapse on the dance floor?
<Casey> I don't know.
<Jen> And that's when they found it, I think.
<Crip> desperate people will do anything
<Jen> Then she delivered the afterbirth, or whatever. The two stories are getting mixed up in my head. The hotel room/dumpster and the prom/toilet ones.
<Casey> desperate people are very unpredictable. It's what makes them dangerous.
<Jen> Yes. I can't imagine she was sane at the time. Or at least in her right mind.
<Casey> The actual facts are not important here, because our focus has been on motivation and depth of character.
<Crip> and it all just collapses at the end
<Jen> true. okay. just trying to set the scene in my head to get inside of hers.
<Casey> Never corner anyone. Leave them some hope or chance of escape and you have better control over the situation.
<Casey> I think we're winding up. Either that, or I'm moving my bed here.
<Jen> was just about to...yawn...
<Crip> yup
<Casey> I got to sysop at 10 a.m. and it doesn't seem that I've been offline since.
<Jen> Getting late here. I have to get up for church tomorrow, so I'm going to type a couple more paragraphs, then head to bed.
<Jen> But definitely an interesting conversation!
<Casey> sounds good, Jen.
<Jen> I will finish this darned story sometime soon.
<Chipmonk> Yes, bed sounds good.
<Casey> It's been rather gruesome in spots. . .
<Jen> No worse than a Stephen King novel. <g>
<Crip> just the beginning of Carrie is all it reminds me of *bleech*
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