CHAT ARCHIVE - 8-8-98, Description

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Aug 09 00: :25 1998

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<Casey> Hi, Jen!
<Jen> Hi! What's going on tonight?
<Zach> Hi, y'all.
<Casey> This is New Writers.
<Zach> Can't stay long.
<Casey> Hi, Zach. Welcome
<Zach> But nobody here's a new writer :-)
<Casey> You're welcome for as long as you can stay.
<Jen> Truth.
<Chipmonk> Pant! Pant! Shuffle, limp. Here day are. I dragged dem in
for you, heee heee. (Peter Lorre voice)
<Casey> Zach's pause will give me a chance to locate one piece I was
going to use tonight.
<Chipmonk> Did I get ze right ones?
<Casey> Thank you, Chip. You did good.
<Chipmonk> I had to beat them up a litte--just a little--to get dem to
cooperate.
<Jen> You did not! <g>
<Chipmonk> Heee Heeee!
<Jen> Or was that you who made my Netscape shortcut go bad?
<Chipmonk> Nooo! Noo! I deedn't do it! Please, don' turn me in !
<Casey> Okay, I think I have everything together now. Not organized,
but together.
<Chipmonk> Please Rick don' let da Nazis take me!
<Casey> Chip is misbehaving. She must be feeling better.
<Jen> That's a good thing, Casey. Organized is scary. But my desk does
look nice with pounds of stuff off of it. So perhaps organized is
good.
<Chipmonk> I'm doing Peter Lorre imitations, can't you tell.
<Casey> And you're very good at it, Chip.
<Chipmonk> Ooooh sank you, heee heee.
<Jen> Yep. I can agree with that one. <g>
<Casey> Now, everyone pet the nice sysop, tell her what a wonderful
rodent she is, then I'll introduce tonight's discussion.
<Casey> (Stroke, stroke. Ewww! She shedding.)
<Chipmonk> I've decided I want to be a sidekick when I grow up, so I'm
trying out different ones/
<Jen> Makes perfect sense.
<Chipmonk> Am not! Oooooh that tickles!
<Casey> I've always wanted to be a grocery bagger. I KNOW I'd beat out
that guy who bags my groceries.
<Chipmonk> I'll go sit in ze corner now, call me if you need me.
<Casey> Okay, tonight we are discussing description.
<Casey> I have been considering the myriad of ways description is and
can be used to impart details that are necessary for the reader to know,
<Casey> or which helps advance the story line.
<Casey> I've been reading 15 or so books that are among my favorites,
studying how the authors combine facts.
<Casey> Unfortunately, I can't locate a couple books that have really
stood out in my mind (that's the way of it. Tomorrow I'll find them in
the few places I haven't looked.)
<Casey> It's hard to convey the feel of an entire paragraph in a single
sentence, but I found some fairly good examples.
<Jen> Are you posting your examples or describing them?
<Casey> How is description used, generally? what is its purpose in a
creative work?
<Casey> (I will be typing them in as they were written, with credits.)
<Jen> To let the reader know where the story is taking place, who the
players are, etc?
<Casey> Yes.
<Casey> There are other uses of it, too.
<Chipmonk> Set the tone.
<Casey> Yes, chip. And mood.
<Jen> Yeah.
<Casey> Time, place, who, . . . action, scene
<Casey> In reading over amateur works, the most notable propensity is a
tendency to list facts.
<Casey> He had brown hair, blue eyes, and never smiled.
<Casey> That sort of thing.
<Jen> Right.
<Casey> In reading well-known authors, the tendency is to incorporate
those details with action.
<Casey> Rather than have the author tell the reader what a protagonist
looks like, have appearance become a natural by-product of some
coincidental action.
<Jen> Terry Brooks described his main character when she looked into a
mirror in his new book. I've heard that's a no-no. 'She looked into
the mirror and saw...'
<Casey> That's one way.
<Chipmonk> It's a cliche.
<Jen> It bothered me when he did that. It was too obvious
<Casey> Noticing a reflection in a storefront window is a little more
original.
<Casey> What better ways are there to handle appearance?
<Chipmonk> In your case, Jen, your protag would look in the mirror and
not see her dark hair...
<Casey> That's good chip.
<Casey> A much more original way to use the mirror thing.
<Jen> She never actually told me she couldn't see her reflection, so I
have no idea. Good point, though. I could use that.
<Jen> Through other characters' eyes? In passing? Umm...
<Jen> Through an action
<Casey> I used a mirror, but in the case of my protag, he came upon a
mirror unexpectedly, and because he had never seen himself even in a
pool of water, his reflection scared him so badly he drew a knife on
himself.
<Jen> comparing themselves to someone else, like if they think they're
ugly and someone else is beautiful?
<Chipmonk> If I was going to have someone look in a mirror, it would be
to see if they were losing more hair or if their lipstick was right, or
if their zit was ready to pop. which might describe their anxieties as
much as their appearance.
<Jen> Well, that is a good twist, Casey!
<Casey> Excellent point Chip, and precisely what the good authors do.
<Casey> Combine description with an action, with a reason for the
action.
<Casey> Exactly as you did here.
<Casey> For nostalgia, one could have a character looking through a
photo album and seeing pictures of him/herself as a child--and noting
the changes since that time.
<Casey> Like hair had gone from white to its current brown.
<Casey> a way to sneak in some past history, as well as physical
description.
<Chipmonk> True.
<Jen> Good idea
<Chipmonk> You could have a tall guy bump into stuff
<Chipmonk> Like door frames and light fixtures.
<Casey> Or duck, habitually, as he goes through doorways.
<Jen> Even high doorways.
<Chipmonk> Get tired of looking down at the tops of heads, (and
describing other characters hair)
<Casey> Implications and connotations are also used in a lot of the best
works, allowing the reader to make connections that not only save the
author a lot of writing, but creates an "oh yeah" kind of feeling for
the reader.
<Chipmonk> Such as...
<Casey> And instant understanding that would be difficult to achieve
otherwise.
<Casey> My latest, all time favorite is your own, Chip.
<Chipmonk> Huh?
<Casey> The piece you shared from Help Wanted, when the boy had finished
dinner after his big announcement and was alone in the dining room,
staring at a picture of the Last Supper.
<Casey> The emotional impact of that simple inclusion--the
picture--still stays with me today.
<Chipmonk> My grandmother really had one.
<Casey> A lot of grandmothers and parents have one.
<Casey> It's why the piece is so realistic and yet powerful, considering
the situation your protag faced.
<Chipmonk> And the Sacred Heart painted on the wall dripping blood too.
<Casey> I have one of those! (Not hung up, but still . . .)
<Chipmonk> I'm glad you like that scene. It's one of my favorites of
anything I've written.
<Casey> Anyone who knows the least about religion knows the entire story
of the last supper and its significance. The use within that scene
achieved the impact you probably wanted without 75 words attempting to
describe his feelings.
<Jen> I remember that. Yes, Casey you're right. It's very powerful.
<Chipmonk> I blush!
<Casey> It is precisely those kinds of symbolisms that add powerful
impact to a story, eliminating the necessity to overwrite.
<Jen> brb
<Chipmonk> I was gonna brb! Drat!
<Casey> Go. I'll pause.
<Chipmonk> Need tea.
<Chipmonk> You could type us in something.
<Casey> I will do that.
<Jen> Chip, you read my mind.
<Jen> I'm back, btw. :-)
<Casey> From the door one looked out on other thatched roofs and groves
and gardens, and other islands with their roofs and fields and hills,
and amongst them all the many bright winding channels of the sea. (A
Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin, 1977)
<Chipmonk> I like the view.
<Jen> good book.
<Jen> And a good description
<Casey> Here, we get not only a description of the immediate vicinity of
the cottage, but a feel for its placement within the region.
<Casey> In one sentence, a whole panorama.
<Chipmonk> And something about the level of cultural development.
<Jen> Good point, there, Chip.
<Chipmonk> Just the mention of thatch, fields and groves.
<Casey> While most of the city played cards or drank beer or went to a
movie or even to sleep, others could be found turning off roadways and
streets, inching along without lights until a spot was reached where the
occupants, usually two, could nuzzle in privacy. (By Reason of Insanity,
Shane Stevens.)
<Casey> also, a feel for the period.
<Jen> Makes me think of France, for some reason. Vineyards and all of
that.
<Jen> The first one.
<Chipmonk> Second feels like a Hopper picture.
<Jen> Or the beginning of a Stephen King book. <g>
<Casey> Yes. We can place the first description not only visually, but
in time and location, through connotation.
<Casey> What was interesting in the second sentence is that he does not
use the word Car, and yet we know precisely what he's talking about.
<Chipmonk> Sometime in the twentieth century after cars were common.
<Jen> Yeah. And after movies.
<Casey> And sometime when parking was really big.
<Chipmonk> And the word nuzzling gives me the idea that the time is not
recent.
<Casey> The date given in the novel is 1947, so your instinct is
correct.
<Jen> True. Reminds me of the oldies songs.
<Jen> I would have said 50s. So not too far off.
<Casey> The book was written in 1979, so this author's skill is
immediately obvious.
<Chipmonk> Amazing, the complexities of image evoked by well-chosen
words.
<Casey> He did his research. He understood the flavor and habits and
even the words of his chosen time period.
<Chipmonk> And described it with such economy of words.
<Casey> Exactly. In one sentence.
<Casey> He gives us the date in the following sentence:
<Casey> It was hot and humid on this September 3, 1947, and people were
glad to see the sun go down.
<Jen> The date must have some signifigance or he wouldn't have mentioned
it
<Casey> We get the bare facts (date), again linked to the feelings.
<Casey> Hot and humid.
<Chipmonk> Yes, I got this image of men sitting around in t shirts
drinking and playing card through an open window with a yellowed pull
shade and.
<Casey> and I get some feeling of unease. Hot and humid, windows would
be open, doors open, and night is coming.
<Casey> People in the street.
<Casey> too hot inside houses.
<Chipmonk> Sitting on porches trying to cool off.
<Chipmonk> Girls in the cars telling boys its too hot to sit so close.
<Jen> Chatting with the neighbors?
<Casey> Yep.
<Chipmonk> Tempers a bit hot.
<Casey> This is the night a rape occurs, so all these images created by
these few words are very desirable.
<Casey> The whole stage is set. It becomes easy to see how the stage is
set and how this crime could be perpetrated quite easily.
<Casey> the opportunities abound.
<Jen> yeah.
<Casey> The crime does not really come at the reader from out of left
field, so to speak.
<Chipmonk> All that and then some in two sentences, just by evoking our
own collective images, rather than describing the details.
<Jen> subconsciously
<Casey> The reader's imagination and ability a deduce facts is much more
powerful a tool to the writer than all the words in the dictionary used
less carefully.
<Casey> Overwriting--writing lengthy description and describing every
detail--is far more limiting than helpful.
<Casey> Not to mention boring.
<Casey> If we can use a reader's imagination, it saves us a lot of work
and personalizes the experience for the reader.
<Casey> That work becomes his or her own discovery. (The reader's, that
is.)
<Jen> Yes, that's true.
<Casey> Now, lamed by pain, he went hesitantly, and did not raise his
face, the left side of which was white with scars. (A Wizard of
Earthsea, LeGuin)
<Casey> Here is the physical description again, combined with action
(walking) and yet tells us so much more about this character than the
mere words say.
<Jen> That does say alot about him
<Casey> That he would not look up 3D shame or embarrassment.
<Jen> fear
<Casey> Yes, Jen, that's possible, too.
<Chipmonk> Or self absorption in the effort of walking in pain.
<Casey> Yes, Chip.
<Jen> sorry if I don't say much, I'm listening. I'm counting change.
<Chipmonk> Seems old and definitely has a more interesting past.
<Casey> 'My blood runs chill,' said Gimli, but the others were silent,
and his voice fell dead on the dank fir-needles at his feet. The Return
of the King, J. R. R. Tolkien, 1970
<Casey> Actually, Chip, he's 16 years old, which makes his past even
more interesting.
<Chipmonk> True!
<Jen> I really need to reread that series.
<Jen> Earthsea.
<Jen> Yes, and they're obviously in a forest.
<Casey> It's a wonderful series, Jen. One of my favorites.
<Jen> I've read it once before, but I haven't reread it. Can't remember
why. I remember I liked it a lot.
<Chipmonk> I was referring still to the Earthsea quote.
<Casey> That last was interesting because of the personification of his
voice--falling dead.
<Chipmonk> Without knowing it's Tolkien, I get the feel of fantasy from
the language and the name.
<Casey> I've been told not to do that because readers tend to read
literally, but everything and anything can work when handled properly.
<Chipmonk> I think you should know the rules and then break them
purposefully.
<Jen> Or at least tweak them a bit
<Casey> And interesting how he got in another tid-bit of
description--the fir-needles--in the "he said" part of the quote.
<Casey> Usually we say, "he said," then stop writing.
<Chipmonk> So we assume we are in a forest.
<Jen> I've been getting away from 'said' lately. It's been interesting.
<Chipmonk> I like the aliteration of "dead on the dank" too.
<Casey> And it gives us either a feel for the time of day (dank
fir-needles)--must be evening dew, or it recently rained.
<Casey> Or morning dew.
<Chipmonk> Chilling and somber mood.
<Casey> Yes. The description strengthens the character's spoken words.
<Casey> Another from the same book that gives good foreboding:
<Casey> It was dark and Merry could see nothing as he lay on the ground
rolled in a blanket; yet though the night was airless and windless, all
about him hidden trees were sighing softly.
<Casey> The use of "hidden" here makes me believe that the trees aren't
the only things hidden in this forest.
<Chipmonk> Well, if you were a real literalist, you'd wonder how it
could be airless.
<Chipmonk> And how do trees sigh if there's no wind? Hmmm?
<Casey> Exactly. Gives the feeling of ghosts, or other ungodly things
lurking.
<Chipmonk> Sighing of their own accord, oooo, spooky!
<Casey> One almost expects the trees themselves to reach out toward
Merry.
<Chipmonk> And that the character's name should be Merry, is ironic.
<Jen> Definitely.
<Casey> For a fantasy piece, these are all wonderful tools that Tolkien
took full advantage of.
<Casey> I marvel at all of these writers and sometimes wonder whether
some of these were unintentional coincidences or carefully planned.
<Casey> Or simply flowed naturally from their years of writing and
experience.
<Casey> I suspect a combination of everything.
<Jen> I think everything Tolkien did was carefully planned.
<Chipmonk> What I find amazing, even though I am a writer, is how we
have this "tool box", but don't consciously say, "Let's stick in some
foreshadowing here, and a little irony there, oh and some forboding over
there."
<Casey> Yes, Chip.
<Chipmonk> It's like learning dance steps or piano keys and once you
have them down, they flow naturally to create dance or music.
<Jen> Yeah, that's it exactly, Chip.
<Casey> It helps when I know precisely where a piece is going, because I
don't miss an opportunity to stick in foreshadowing, kind of as a
private smirk, wondering how the reader will finally react when the
event that's being lead up to finally happens.
<Casey> Whether they will think back and say, ah-hah! THAT's what was
meant by that remark, etc.
<Chipmonk> Yes, I think foreshadowing is usually something you need to
plan at least casually.
<Jen> I tend to add that in afterwards, cause I normally have no idea
what's going to happen. Or else the foreshadowing appears by itself,
and what might not make sense in the beginning is explained in the end.
<Casey> In mystery writing, foreshadowing is crucial. It's practically
the story.
<Chipmonk> Foreshadowing is great fun for the writer and the reader, I
think.
<Casey> Yes, indeed.
<Chipmonk> And to do it in a way that it isn't obvious to the reader or
the character.
<Casey> And it's great fun to use mystery techniques in science fiction
to strengthen the suspense.
<Casey> Any tool, from whatever genre, is fair game.
<Chipmonk> Yup.
<Chipmonk> brb again.
<Casey> Okay. I'll write while you're gone.
<Casey> Ferune being male, his crest rose higher than a female's, and it
and the tail were white with black trim; on her they would have been of
uniform dark lustrousness. (The People of the Wind, Poul Anderson)
<Jen> If foreshadowing is obvious to the characters, they'll let you
know.
<Casey> Exactly. And sometimes what might not have started out as
foreshadowing can suddenly "click" and make a future action plausible or
logical.
<Casey> I've had that happen before.
<Jen> That's happens a lot with me.
<Jen> Sometimes unfortunately. But it does make me keep writing.
<Casey> It shows how much our minds are at work on the story we're
creating even when we're not actively writing.
<Jen> Oh yes. Those kinds of days I come home with a pocketful of notes.
<Chipmonk> I don't get as much from that quote.
<Casey> I know. I've had to forsake a direction the story was headed
because I discovered that as fun as the scene was to write, to follow it
through created too many and too severe consequences that I wasn't
prepared or wanted to deal with.
<Jen> hah. You got it.
<Jen> Me neither, Chip. Except for birds or bird-like creatures.
<Jen> Remind me to tell you about the Treasure Hunting disaster some
day.
<Casey> That quote is awkward and difficult for me, but I used it
because it shows a technique of describing the differences between a
male and female while ostensibly describing only one.
<Chipmonk> Sounds like all the books I've done two or three chapters of
and ground to a halt.
<Jen> Yes. I agree, Chip.
<Casey> That is a possible "trick" to use, but as this quote shows, it
would take work to do well.
<Chipmonk> You could compare and contrast anything.
<Casey> Zeren strolled through the Hall of Records, Division of the
Ministry of Justice, with his polished parade armor clashing softly. (A
Dirge for Sabis, C. J. Cherryh & Leslie Fish, 1989)
<Chipmonk> They got bureaucrats.
<Casey> Exactly, chip.
<Jen> and pomp and circumstance presumably.
<Casey> Yes. And polished parade armor makes me understand that his
dress is for show, not use.
<Chipmonk> And what kind of society would have pomp involving armor?
<Casey> A dangerous one.
<Jen> English society <g>
<Jen> not modern.
<Casey> A country/land at war.
<Chipmonk> Or formerly dangerous, but now just looking back
nostalgically to the past?
<Casey> Good, Chip.
<Chipmonk> England made me think of that.
<Casey> From that one quote, we could almost begin to write this place's
history.
<Chipmonk> We are literary profilers<g>
<Casey> Isn't it fun?
<Casey> They are civilized enough to keep records.
<Chipmonk> And have a complex society wealthy enough to support the
bureaucracy.
<Chipmonk> Although at whose expense?
<Casey> yes, and how crooked?
<Chipmonk> Elaborate public buildings.
<Casey> Expensive suit of office, that armor.
<Casey> Someone with clout?
<Chipmonk> This would be fun to do without giving us the references at
first and seeing how close we are.
<Jen> Yeah, it would.
<Jen> I like that. Literary profilers.
<Casey> Yes.
<Casey> A thought for another time . hehe
<Chipmonk> yup.
<Casey> Zeren sat with an unfeigned sigh of relief, and rubbed a little
obviously at his knee. (same book)
<Chipmonk> He's got arthritis?
<Jen> Old wound?
<Casey> Or faking it to gain sympathy.
<Jen> ah
<Chipmonk> But the sigh was unfeigned.
<Chipmonk> So perhaps exaggerating?
<Jen> maybe the sigh wasn't because of the knee
<Casey> But the word obviously leads us to believe that part of what
he's doing is deliberate.
<Chipmonk> Hmmm?
<Chipmonk> Hidden motives.
<Casey> Yes. My suspicion.
<Chipmonk> Let's haul him in for questioning.
<Casey> LOL!
<Jen> Great idea!!
<Chipmonk> Bookpal should be here.
<Casey> Yeah. suspicious actions.
<Casey> Yes, I thought about her with the mystery writers' stuff.
<Chipmonk> I don't like these people.
<Casey> We don't have a feel for whether Zeren is "good" or "bad"
<Casey> We're only given his actions.
<Jen> true
<Chipmonk> But we make judgments and read on to see if we're correct in
our assumptions.
<Casey> Does he have an honorable purpose for using deceit?
<Casey> Exactly, Chip. It's the curiosity factor.
<Chipmonk> Could be just vying for attention.
<Casey> Good point I hadn't thought of.
<Chipmonk> Or wants to be considered too lame to do something.
<Casey> Things a child knows instinctively how to use.
<Chipmonk> I haven't read this book.
<Jen> i was just about to ask
<Casey> It's a science fantasy book.
<Casey> Science versus superstition, but also using superstition to
advance or protect its cause, as desired.
<Chipmonk> Are we anywhere close to the facts.
<Casey> Actually, yes in places.
<Casey> There is corruption in the bureaucracy
<Casey> More than Zeren suspects, brought out quite delightfully in this
particular scene.
<Casey> He is using the hurt knee, ex-soldier routine to win sympathy
and gain the clerk's confidences.
<Jen> ah.makes sense
<Chipmonk> I'm going to have to call it quits soon, really tired.
<Casey> Okay, then final exercise.
<Jen> Can't imagine why. You were up before me this morning.
<Chipmonk> Dogs and cats don't know from weekends.
<Casey> In one sentence, combine sun/heat/no perspiration, and brown
hair, if you can.
<Jen> no perspiration?
<Casey> He's not sweating. How do you show this?
<Casey> Or she. Use whatever sex you like.
<Chipmonk> Got it.
<Jen> He staggered through the desert, too parched from the sun's heat
to even sweat, his lank brown hair caked with sand and grime.
<Casey> Oh, good, Jen!!
<Chipmonk> Now I have to think up a nother one! Darn!
<Jen> that's as good as I can do at 11:30, <g>
<Jen> What, did I take yours/
<Casey> Action, setting, and all the required elements.
<Chipmonk> Uh huh, pout.
<Jen> oops. must have read your mind. sorry.
<Casey> You're good at that, Jen.
<Jen> What, reading minds?
<Casey> Yes. You were always doing that with me.
<Jen> I don't do it on purpose. honest!
<Casey> yeah, yeah. that's what she says now.
<Jen> Lol.
<Casey> chuckle
<Chipmonk> The sun beat down on the Mirocs dark, brown hair and, since
they are incapable of perspiring, having no sweat glands, the beast's
brains began to fry and it attacked it's handlers in a mad rage.
<Jen> Oh, good, Chip!
<Jen> I like mad rages.
<Casey> oh, fried brains!
<Jen> fried brains are a close second.
<Casey> Definely action.
<Chipmonk> The mad dogs and Englishmen out in the noon day sun thing.
<Casey> And enough blood and guts for anyone.
<Casey> Okay, you're both off the hook. Class is dismissed. It's been
fun.
<Chipmonk> Well, depending on what a miroc is.
<Jen> A positive plethora of blood and guts.
<Jen> Does that mean I get to finish sewing now?
<Casey> Unless a Miroc is toothless.
<Jen> Gnawed to death. ewww
<Casey> In which case, the handlers were gummed to death.
<Chipmonk> Like a little toothless Chihuahua.
<Casey> funny imagery, chip.
<Chipmonk> How bout the rabbit in Holy Grail?
<Jen> It could have been a dog.
<Jen> They don't sweat
<Jen> do they?
<Casey> That was such a funny movie.
<Chipmonk> They pant instead, that's why their brains fry in closed up
cars and such.
<Chipmonk> Greyhounds are particularly susceptible to frying their
brains.
<Casey> Tess's sweat is called drool.
<Jen> I can imagine. Poor things.
<Jen> hehe.
<Chipmonk> What is Tess?
<Casey> She reminds me of your riddle monster, Chip, without the purple
nose.
<Casey> My Labrador Retriever.
<Chipmonk> Ooooo!
<Chipmonk> Pretty drippy dogs, not as bad as St. Bernards or bull dogs.
<Casey> That's true. St. Bernards are BIG droolers.
<Casey> Meant physically and profusely.
<Chipmonk> Lol
<Jen> hehe
<Chipmonk> Greyhounds don't drool, their noses run instead.
<Jen> I think I'd prefer drool
<Chipmonk> Not snotty, just watery.
<Casey> They lick their own noses, tho, don't they?
<Jen> oh. ok
<Chipmonk> Yes, but when they get excited or nervous they run a lot and
flick it around.
<Jen> Cats are watery too. Or at least wet. Especially at 4 in the
morning when a nose is shoved in your face.
<Chipmonk> My cat Simon, drools when you scratch behind his ears.
<Jen> noses, i mean
<Chipmonk> What an interesting topic!
<Chipmonk> Snot and drool.
<Casey> Comparative drooling habits.
<Casey> Where else can we learn these things if not on the 'net?
<Chipmonk> Writers need to know these things though, you never know when
you'll need a drooling, snotting scene.
<Casey> Exactly. That perfect touch to the difficult scene.
<Chipmonk> What I find interesting is what we will tolerate from our
animals but wouldn't from a human.
<Casey> I don't know about that, chip. You've not met Harold.
<Jen> LOL
<Chipmonk> I won't say what I'm thinking.
<Casey> Laughing! Poor Harold.
<Casey> It's a wonder that he tolerates me at all.
<Chipmonk> Hey, could you tolerate a man who couldn't laugh at himself?
<Casey> I had to teach him to talk back to me. When we were first
married, he was afraid to. Then he tried, tentatively, a couple times
when he was mad, or I was mad at him, and I burst out laughing and
applauded him. He was so shocked.
<Casey> Now he doesn't have that fear or problem any longer.
<Chipmonk> Poor thing!
<Casey> He's so tolerant of me.
<Casey> He's really wonderful.
<Chipmonk> Your very fortunate.
<Casey> Yes, indeed. I know that well.
<Chipmonk> Are you taking this all in for future reference, jen?
<Jen> Yes! I'm also breaking pencils.
<Chipmonk> Intentionally?
<Casey> Jen: don't teach him to talk back. It can backfire on you.
<Casey> Once he starts, he finds out he likes it.
<Jen> No. They break really well. I'm trying to turn out the dragon
body I'm stitching, and it's taking forever.
<Jen> He already does that.
<Casey> I've used those click (writing) pens before, but they also
break.
<Jen> Well, these pencils are obviously not made as a stuffing tool.
<Casey> They make a tool for inverting and stuffing, but I've never
invested in one. It's more fun to break all the pens in the house.
<Jen> I need a knitting needle.
<Chipmonk> A bodkin?
<Jen> Darn dragon's odd inches long.
<Jen> Is that's what they're called/
<Casey> That size is difficult to handle and stuff. The blunt end of a
knitting needle would work well.
<Chipmonk> I think. I'll ask my mother. It's a long metal thing she
uses for turning things like cloth belts.
<Jen> It will look neat when I'm done. I'll post a picture of it.
<Jen> But I finally got it. Pliers work too.
<Chipmonk> How about screwdrivers?
<Casey> Bodkins actually catch the fabric for turning. It wouldn't do
well for stuffing. the stuffing would snag on the end and come out.
<Jen> That would work, but I don't have one handy.
<Jen> Well, then I need one for turning. The tail's a pain and a half.
<Chipmonk> A ferret on a string?
<Jen> Sure!
<Chipmonk> That's what they used to use to run ropes or wires through
pipes.