CHAT ARCHIVE - 1-23-99, Self-Editing

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Jan 24 03:34:09 1999

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<Casey> I think that making an assignment for tonight's workshop has scared
off all my regulars.
<Bookpal> I didn't send a paragraph but I have one I can send while we are
waiting if you want.
<Goshwin> assignment?!?!? EEK.. (think fast) umm my dog ate it!!
<Casey> That sounds good, Bookpal.
<Bookpal> OK - since I use so much dialog it is more than a paragraph, but
short
<Casey> Gosh, do you have something you want to send now? I'm asking for a
paragraph.
<Goshwin> Oh I could dig around in older material that you may have already
seen
<Casey> That's fine. I'll accept anything.
<Goshwin> ok ok .. nipping off to search
<Goshwin> I'll make it easy.. you have already commented on this one..
hence the class can benefit at minimal effort on your part..
<Casey> Okay, I've got everyone's samples, thanks.
<Casey> Would each of you care to go ahead and trade with each other, too?
<Bookpal> I could do that
<Goshwin> ok
<Casey> Do you have a paragraph that you'd like to share with the group
tonight, Rose?
<shorty103> No, I let you choose it, I know that you will be able to convey
it better than I
<Casey> Okay. We'll start.
<Casey> tonight's topic is editing your own work.
<Casey> There are a couple tricks that are helpful for me that I'll share.
If you have some that have been successful or beneficial to you, please let
us hear them.
<Casey> The first one that I recommend highly is to let a piece "cool off."
Write it, leave it alone for as many days as you have the leisure to
ignore it, then go back and reread what you wrote.
<Casey> You'll be able to spot vague descriptions, strange grammar, etc. a
lot easier that way.
<shorty103> true
<Casey> In preparation for this class, I sat down and came up with a list
of things I check for in my own work, as well as common mistakes I see
repeatedly in beginning writers' works.
<Casey> Clichés is first on the list.
<shorty103> I really don't understand Clinches.
<Casey> They can convey unintended humor at times, if you're not careful.
<Casey> "caught his eye" is a cliché
<shorty103> understood
<Casey> "took up" when used to mean "began" is a cliché
<Casey> Can you folks name others?
<Goshwin> (dirt flings higgly piggly) -- clique?
<Bookpal> "broke the silence"
<Casey> That's a cliché, Gosh??!!
<Goshwin> he he
<Bookpal> "milk and honey"
<Goshwin> that always happens when I "attempt" to type fast
<shorty103> " once upon a time"
<Russ> As tall as the corn
<Goshwin> a dark and stormy night?
<Casey> Clichés are any phrases that are well-worn.
<Casey> Boy toy has become a cliché.
<Casey> And that's a new one.
<shorty103> really
<Goshwin> is there an official list?
<shorty103> long ago and far away,
<shorty103> is that what you mean
<Russ> Her eyes were limpid pools
<Goshwin> I think Russ just hit a 8.6 on the cliché-oh meter
<Casey> I've never seen an official list, but I think that we can all spot
a cliché when we see one. They are generally something that should not be
overused, and not used in formal writing.
<Russ> give me time. I'm just warming up (How's that Gosh? <g>)
<shorty103> Russ, I have never heard of that one before, and some of the
others
<Casey> Good one, Russ
<Bookpal> "flying off the handle"
<Goshwin> I have yet to fight/write (GRIN)
<Casey> Bookpal's wound up!
<Goshwin> oops mixed
<shorty103> Oh no! we're in trouble now! LOL
<Goshwin> I have not yet begun to.. etc etc
<Casey> Next is the old axiom, "Show, don't tell."
<shorty103> tell me about that one, I do an awful job at that one
<Casey> "Was a recluse." Rather than saying that, what characteristics
belong to a recluse?
<Casey> How does one identify a recluse?
<Casey> (I'm going to be working with you on that, Rose.)
<Russ> Hide away from people. Silent. Not very friendly
<Bookpal> peeks from between the curtains
<shorty103> okay, you must have been reading my mind Casey
<Goshwin> (currently residing under rock)
<Casey> No, reading your story. :-)
<Russ> LOL
<Goshwin> *Ooo wormies*
<shorty103> lol is right, but I was just thinking of that just now
<Casey> Saying any of those things brings vivid images to mind, and conveys
the same information, more interestingly, than simply stating, He was a
recluse.
<Russ> Can you think of some things that might identify someone as a
recluse, Rose?
<shorty103> me
<Casey> What makes you a recluse?
<shorty103> I like to be by myself,
<Russ> (LOL) So use your own personal experience. How does a recluse
think, feel, ect.
<shorty103> I like to be alone with my own thoughts, do things for one, and
just enjoy the silence
<Casey> Good, Rose.
<shorty103> really
<Bookpal> I'm with you Rose
<Casey> Then if you were writing about someone who was reclusive, you could
draw upon all those things.
<shorty103> yes I would Casey
<Russ> How do you feel when you're with other people, Rose? That can give
you a good insight into how to describe why you like to be alone
<Casey> Good point, Russ. That makes for a good contrast.
<shorty103> it depends on the mood I'm in, I do like being with people, but
I like to have time for me as well. I don't how to explain it
<Bookpal> Do you work with the public, Rose?
<shorty103> no
<Bookpal> I do, and that is why I enjoy my alone times.
<shorty103> I consider myself a home body, I feel more open and comfortable
here than I do out in the world. but I do have to go out once and a while
to get things that I need for the house and me
<Casey> Look for places in your writing where you've simply stated
something and decide whether you can show a characteristic that will convey
the same idea, but in a way that will bring the description alive with
impact.
<Bookpal> good tip
<shorty103> so what your saying is, if I have been like this most of my
life, than I have a fountain of understanding to show, not tell in my story
<Bookpal> True
<Casey> In Dialogue, by far the most common mistake is overwriting it.
<Casey> By overwriting, I mean that far too many words are used.
<shorty103> I have a habit of doing that
<shorty103> overwriting words
<Casey> Beginning writers feel that their characters must explain their
actions to each other.
<shorty103> yes, but I'm learning slowly not to do that
<Russ> Their actions should define the character.
<Casey> Dialogue: "Before I do though, may I ask how old you are?"
<Casey> vs. "How old are you?"
<Casey> The second is succinct, to the point, and reads more realistically.
<Russ> Another thing I've seen is using dialogue to tell back story, as an
info dump.
<Casey> Yes, Russ.
<shorty103> I'm a little confused Casey
<Casey> Everything in " " is a dialogue example, Rose.
<shorty103> understood
<Casey> Do you see everything that I omitted in the second version of the
example?
<Bookpal> yes, cuts the word count
<Russ> Ex:You remember, john. It was the small town we went to back in the
fifties. I recall we spent three nights there tearing up the town and
getting drunk. Then there was that girl. What was her name?" Etc.
<Goshwin> Ooo are we to say that we are going to get nibbles of your
stories tossed in "out of the blue" .. he he cliché?
<Bookpal> lol, Russ - you do see that once in awhile
<Russ> You don't have much dialogue where the speaker speaks uninterrupted
for more than a couple of sentences, else it becomes a monologue
<Bookpal> true
<Casey> Or, worse, villains who gloat over their conquests and go into
depth as to what they are going to do to the hero, and then the hero
escapes and knows the whole scheme.
<shorty103> how can you tell the difference Russ
<Russ> Read it out loud, Rose
<shorty103> okay
<Russ> Your ear can tell the difference
<shorty103> understood
<Casey> Yes. If the words are difficult to read aloud, then it's unlikely
someone would have spoken them.
<Goshwin> (nibble nibble)
<Casey> Dialogue can also convey degrees of urgency by the # of words used.
<Russ> Keep in mind that dialogue is written to read like it should sound,
Not as people actually speak.
<shorty103> even if one is a bad speaker to hear their own work aloud from
their own mouth, I was never very good at that
<Russ> Ex: "Um, ya know, um, whaddya, um want to do?"
<Casey> Good point, Russ.
<Bookpal> Sometimes it helps to have someone read it to you, Rose.
<shorty103> yes, I would rather that, than to put up with my own voice
<Casey> Another good trick. Thank you for mentioning that, Bookpal.
<Casey> "Just be quick about it." "Just be quick." and "Be quick." all
convey different degrees of urgency.
<Bookpal> Yes, they do
<Russ> Don't they also say a lot about the speaker?
<Casey> Yes, Russ. That's also true.
<Casey> The general rule is: the longer the sentences, the slower the
action
<shorty103> that makes sense
<Bookpal> That works with chapters, too!
<Casey> The shorter the sentences, the faster the action.
<shorty103> then I'm long winded
<Russ> Casey, can you talk a little about the differences and similarities
between internal and external dialogue?
<shorty103> yes,
<Goshwin> The dichotomy of the juxtaposition anticipates the surality of
the
.. (what the hell am I saying)
<Goshwin> Welcome to my version on long winded... (effort at amusing
topical comments)
<Bookpal> LOL
<Russ> Sounds like a dissertation to me, Gosh
<Casey> Internal dialogue does not use quotation marks.
<Casey> And should not be preceded by statements such as, "He thought to
himself."
<Bookpal> bummer :-)
<shorty103> Sometimes I get confused in where to use the quotation marks
<Casey> Gosh keeps this workshop from being too serious and boring. Good
job!
<shorty103> another clinch is that right Casey
<Russ> What about tense? I've been told (and read) it both in the same
tense as the rest of the story and (In the case of 3rd person) in 1st
person
<Goshwin> then how do you designate internal dialog?
<Russ> It should designate itself if you've maintained POV
<Casey> Yes, tense should not change or it becomes too confusing to read.
<shorty103> can you use one paragraph per POV?
<Goshwin> in the first person.. easy.. but ...???
<Casey> Rose, POV should not change between paragraphs.
<Goshwin> ah wait I see.. Just dawned on me
<Russ> Ex: He knew he shouldn't be upset by her comments, but she had a way
of getting under his skin
<Casey> Or, Her comments bothered him a lot.
<Casey> If POV must change, there should be a clear demarcation--usually
4--6 blank lines within the body.
<Goshwin> Russ.. yep that was just what I realised!! (tanks)
<Russ> ( I know it's tripe so don't bother to tell me <G>)
<shorty103> but what about dialogue between three people, how do you keep
the POV's straight
<Goshwin> POV stick with one.. all else is experienced by the pov..
<Russ> He said, she said. Don't be afraid to use them
<shorty103> a few of these things has bothered me, that is why I'm asking
<Russ> They're invisible to the reader, but keep who is saying what clear
<Casey> You do not jump to each individual's POV. Each person speaks and
is interpreted by the POV character, if that info is necessary.
<Goshwin> even he said she said is not needed if the dialog flows in a
predictable answer.. "what time is it Casey" "six Goosh!"
<shorty103> understood
<Russ> Ooops, sorry, answering the wrong question
<Casey> That's okay, Russ.
<Russ> Thanks :)
<Casey> You won't go wrong with POV if you are your POV character.
Remember that he can only see/hear/know/feel/smell what you could know if
you were standing there in his place.
<Russ> Rose, when you write a scene, just try to remember that the only
things that can be seen or heard or thought about come from whomever is
telling the story
<Casey> Do not be the author, with the author's knowledge, telling this
story.
<Bookpal> true - hate that
<Casey> Integrate with your character(s)
<shorty103> I see now
<Russ> See what happens when you look at your fingers to type? You end up
repeating what has just been said
<Casey> It's just that great minds think alike, Russ.
<Bookpal> TRUE
<Russ> And so do ours, Casey <bg>
<shorty103> I'm beginning to understand, but it takes time like anything
else
<Casey> When Jen & I are in the same chat room, everyone hears the same
thing twice all night long.
<Russ> LOL
<Goshwin> Jen ?? she is still alive?? (gee)
<Casey> Yes, she is.
<Goshwin> Have not seen the littel blood sucker for a while
<shorty103> Gosh, that's not nice.
<Russ> I met her last week, when you and Zen couldn't get on ICQ
<Goshwin> hey that's what she is!!! and she is proud of it to!
<Casey> Parallelism: necessary when writing a series of items, facts,
whatever.
<Russ> Bloodsucking can be fun, if done in the right situation :-)
<Casey> Everyone understand parallelism?
<Casey> Quick example: First, living at home, then going to school, and
all those years working for the Salvation Army. is incorrect.
<Casey> anyone catch the mistake in the above example of parallelism?
<Goshwin> who what why when where??
<Casey> What Gosh?
<Russ> I got lost somewhere. I think it was behind the rock a few miles
back
<Goshwin> the mistake
<Goshwin> no I am lost behind the rock and roll) you still
cringing..remember
<Casey> The three statements must be uniformly presented (grammar-wise).
<Russ> Do you mean staying within the same tense?
<Casey> We have First, . . . then . . . so "and" should be "followed by"
instead, in order to be correct.
<Russ> Aha
<shorty103> first, living at home. Going to school. Working at the
Salvation Army.
<shorty103> or was I supposed to use " for" instead of " at" Casey
<Casey> The same would be true if you're using statements such as
"supervising" "monitoring" and "sponsoring".
<Casey> You can't have "supervising" "monitoring" and "a clean house"
beginning your statements in a series.
<shorty103> so I'm way off base on that one
<Casey> The last doesn't follow the "-ing" form of the beginning verbs.
<shorty103> lost!
<Casey> I was afraid so.
<shorty103> grammar is not a strong point for me
<Casey> I'm supervising the children, monitoring their play and cleaning
the house.
<Casey> See how all your verbs are in the same form? (ending in ing?)
<Casey> Indefinite pronouns: The source of most confusion.
<Chipmonk> Who?
<Casey> "it" "they" "he" "she"
<Casey> "that"
<Chipmonk> Oh, them!
<Russ> Do you mean like....John and Tom talked. He told him.....
<Casey> yes, Russ.
<Casey> Exactly.
<Casey> My personal "evil pronoun" is "it."
<Goshwin> it and the..
<Chipmonk> Really? That?
<shorty103> mine too! I seem to use those a lot.
<Casey> Every time I see one, I try to substitute it with a strong noun or
phrase.
<Bookpal> Gosh - got it, thanks
<Casey> Just that one little trick can improve writing clarity immensely,
and can bring your words alive.
<Casey> You guys are incorrigible!
<Russ> But how many times can you say...the dog, cur mongrel, etc. before
you sound banal?
<Casey> Depends upon how often you use "it"
<Russ> I am very corrigible, thank you <g>
<Goshwin> incorrigible?!?! why I am incredulous.. (humm I don't even know
how to use that word)
<Chipmonk> I think I'm corrugated.
<Russ> lol, Chip
<shorty103> Casey, I know what I sent you, I have one name that repeats
it's self a lot
<Casey> Lornia's?
<Goshwin> "it" aaaargh (he screams) she used that word!!! ayeeee
<shorty103> yes
<Goshwin> I am corrodible
<Bookpal> I use the word "as" too often - once highlighted it in pink -
looked like my story had measles.
<Chipmonk> Lol!
<shorty103> I don't know how to get around it, I don't like to use that
much, but what can one do to solve this
<Casey> If you find that you're overusing a single word, look at how you're
writing and experiment with different ways of conveying the same info.
<Casey> OK, redundancies: the author telling the reader what a character
is about to do immediately before the character does it.
<Casey> Leave the character's actions, drop the "this is what's about to
happen" part.
<shorty103> interesting thought Casey, sounds like me
<Chipmonk> Redundancies: She is going to talk about them.
<Casey> You are NOT the only one, Rose.
<shorty103> I'm glad
<Casey> Another redundancy: Saying the same thing two or more different
ways.
<Russ> Just look at the Government, Rose
<Chipmonk> Ha!
<shorty103> is there an echo in here somewhere
<Goshwin> redundant echo
<Casey> Just as the author must chose the appropriate word in description,
the author should also decide how to phrase an action, and not include all
possibilities.
<Casey> Writing is about choices, so chose the best way of saying something
once, and get on with the action.
<shorty103> you do have a point there Casey
<Russ> Can you give us an example, Casey?
<Casey> He was torn. He didn't know what to do. He worried about making a
mistake.
<Bookpal> Could you do that for emphasis, Casey? I have seen it done and it
can be powerful.
<Russ> Thanks (searching mss for signs of the same)
<Casey> for emphasis, YES. But as a matter of course, no.
<Bookpal> Koontz does that sometimes
<Casey> Each of us should do it sometimes.
<Bookpal> I get your point, though
<Casey> Have each of you read Max's post on Delphi?
<Bookpal> No
<Goshwin> no
<shorty103> I don't quite understand what you mean Casey, emphasis on what
<Russ> Nope..
<Russ> But I got home just as we were starting
<Casey> The first couple of his "standing there's" were fine. By the end
of his short (story) post, I wanted the protagonist to sit down.
<Russ> haven't read anything on Delphi
<Casey> It was there yesterday.
<Russ> fine....where was it?
<Goshwin> perhaps he had a hemorrhoid?
<Russ> lol
<Casey> Emphasis, as in creating a specific mood of confusion.
<Goshwin> what section is it under Casey?
<Casey> Poetry, I believe.
<Casey> He seems to be keeping his posts together there.
<Russ> Ah. don't read poetry. (Sorry, poets)
<Chipmonk> I think he made his own section.
<Casey> Everything there isn't only poetry.
<Russ> Well, I'll have to check it out then. Thanks for the tip, Casey :-)
<Chipmonk> Did you read the crit of Max on Delphi?
<shorty103> okay, Casey. I think I did that in my story but I'm not sure
<Goshwin> (Grin) if you can call my world poems that..
<Casey> No, I haven't been there today, chip.
<Casey> If you have, it's not been in the section I've read so far, rose.
<Chipmonk> From Weird Visions--it's good reading if you want to know what
editors are like.
<shorty103> I'm not sure that I have done anything that I have been taught
in my story right, but only Casey can answer that question
<Casey> Logic:
<Casey> Step back and consider your story in the light of logic.
<Chipmonk> Chipmonks are good at logic!
<Casey> Yes, they are! At least our Chipmonk is.
<Russ> Isn't that Lolliegic?
<Casey> Good one, Russ! (chuckling)
<Chipmonk> Logic?
<Casey> If your character is protesting long and loud, "I'm not stupid,"
don't turn around and have her call herself stupid unless you are showing
that she's internalizing what someone else has been saying about her.
<Casey> I'm through lecturing, unless someone has questions.
<Bookpal> I like the logic part - any more thoughts on that, Casey?
<Casey> Just: be aware of what you have your character doing (actions) and
don't forget to stop them and have them do something else before the reader
finds them doing that new something, minus explanations of how he/she got
there.
<Casey> That's a common mistake.
<Bookpal> ok
<Russ> Also, be careful introducing new characters
<Chipmonk> Characters should be consistent.
<Casey> Yeah. Characters don't pop in out of the sky.
<Russ> And they don't disappear there, either
<Goshwin> Aaaaah.. the pause that refreshes (still too much information)
<shorty103> in what way Casey, I hope I didn't make that mistake yet
<Chipmonk> I've wondered about that. You can't just meet someone on the
street?
<Russ> you can, but don't give them weight to the story. tie up any loose
ends then and there, unless they'll be showing up again
<shorty103> what if your traveling, and someone has something to do with
the story itself
<Casey> You can just meet someone on the street--but if your character is
in desperate need of a lawyer, having him accidentally bump into one
getting onto a bus seems to stretch credibility.
<Chipmonk> True in stories but it happens.
<Bookpal> he could be chasing an ambulance
<Casey> He = Lawyer?
<shorty103> as you might see in my story Casey, did I do it right from what
you have read so far
<Bookpal> yep, whoops!
<Casey> (those pesky indefinite pronouns!)
<Russ> remember fiction is a representation of reality and not a reflection
<Goshwin> chasing ambulances with a bus?!?!
<Chipmonk> Oh duh! Of course not! Lawyers don't ride busses!
<Goshwin> cheap lawyer
<Chipmonk> Public defender.
<Casey> The lawyer is in the Mercedes behind the bus.
<Chipmonk> Ah!
<Casey> The good one that can save his neck.
<Bookpal> sounds like my kind of story
<Casey> lol!
<Goshwin> could have the bus hit him and he sue for whiplash
<Chipmonk> I've considered doing a story with synchronicities happening,
but
editors wouldn't like it.
<Russ> I hope you mean whiplash, Gosh
<Goshwin> he he sort of an s&m.. whiplash.. he he
<Bookpal> I read a book today that made me scream "No" - everyone came
running to see what was wrong - the author sure got me involved.
<Russ> reading at work again? (wishing I could)
<Bookpal> No, day off
<Chipmonk> Put that on the recommended list, Bookie.
<Casey> Last few recommendations: learn basic grammar if you don't already
know it. Break rules sparingly. Techniques used for emphasis must be used
sparingly in order to preserve their impact.
<Russ> does this mean we're ready for paragraphs?
<shorty103> okay, I will try, but I don't know how my memory, I tend to
forget grammar when I write,
<Casey> Learn the actual definitions of words and use them in their actual
context. Readers read literally. They have no other basis upon which to
read what is written.
<shorty103> yes, me first Casey
<Russ> That's why you re-write, Rose. don't stress it too much the first
time
<Chipmonk> That's why they invented rewriting, Rose.
<Bookpal> Don't worry with the first draft - that comes with re-writing,
Rose
<Russ> LOL, Chip
<shorty103> okay, understood
<Casey> Excellent, valid and notable point, Russ: Don't fret about all
this stuff in the first draft.
<Chipmonk> Twinkie fingers on Russ and Bookie!
<Casey> It's more important to get something on paper than getting it
phrased perfectly.
<Bookpal> I guess - we were both watching our fingers
<shorty103> understood Casey
<Casey> Rewriting and self-editing will make your words impossible to stop
reading.
<Goshwin> humm done that "get it down" thing.. yep the first draft can be a
little "Rough"
<Casey> My raw drafts are atrocious. No one would believe I could write
who had read one.
<Goshwin> GRIN
<Casey> Only in rewriting and editing does anything I write sound halfway
intelligent.
<Casey> Okay, we are ready for paragraphs.
<Goshwin> eeK
<Casey> Volunteers for the first one?
<shorty103> yes
<shorty103> me
<Russ> I try for halfway stupid, that way when I write something good, I'm
pleasantly surprised
<Goshwin> SHORT JUST JUMPS IN
<shorty103> you have it Casey
<Goshwin> (hate it when my shift sticks)
<Casey> I don't have anything of yours on this comp. I'd have to type it
in.
<Russ> (thought you were shouting at us)
<shorty103> Casey has the hard copy, I don't have anything in front of me
<Casey> someone else want to go first while I locate and type in one of
Rose's paragraphs?
<Russ> I can go if you want, Casey
<Casey> Sure, Russ. do it.
<Russ> How much do you want?
<Casey> Whatever you want to work with, Russ.
<Casey> Russ will edit his own paragraph.
<Casey> We'll watch. Tell us why you're changing what you're changing.
<Casey> We'll jump in when you're finished.
<Russ> I assume I need to send it first?
<Casey> Cut and paste it to the chat screen.
<Russ> K
<Russ> It won't let me paste
<Casey> Paste it in the input line.
<Chipmonk> Did you try with your right mouse button?
<Russ> Trying that...it won't let me do it
<Casey> You won't be able to see it, most likely, but we will be able to.
<Russ> The old man was almost incomprehensible as he spewed his
<Russ> tale to John. John sat next to him in front of the 'Cock and Bull',
<Russ> Dorbish's tavern. He didn't know the old mans name. In fact, he
<Russ> didn't think anyone in Dorbish knew it. The entire town called him
<Russ> the old man. John had spent all of his seventeen years in Dorbish
<Russ> and the old man had always sat in front of the 'Cock and Bull',
<Russ> every day, from noon until sundown.
<Casey> It worked!!
<Russ> That's the end of the pp
<Russ> Hokay.
<Russ> Trying to get my windows set up so I can see it
<shorty103> what is pp?
<Casey> pp = paragraph
<shorty103> ok
<Russ> Hokay. The first thing I'd change is in the first sentence.
Passive voice, yuck
<Goshwin> Passive? humm
<Bookpal> That "was" jumped out at me, Russ
<Russ> "The old man spewed his tale incomprehensibly at John." Not much
better, but not passive
<Bookpal> at John or to John?
<Russ> to, thanks
<Casey> How do you "spew incomprehensibly?"
<Bookpal> Made me think for a minute he threw up
<Russ> Not very well
<Chipmonk> Does he expect John is listening and does he care--if not I'd
say at/
<Bookpal> good point, chip
<Russ> Doesn't really care, but knows he's listening
<shorty103> I hope you don't mind Casey, but I'm just going to sit back and
take this in for a little bit
<Casey> That's fine, Rose.
<Russ> How about...."The old man babbled his tale at John."
<Goshwin> at = passive?
<Casey> Better! I can picture him doing that.
<Russ> One more for the 1st sentence....."The old man babbled his tale at
John through toothless gums"
<Chipmonk> Getting better.
<Casey> What about moving "toothless gums" closer to the old man?
<Bookpal> gives a picture of the old man
<Russ> so..."the old man babbled his tale through toothless gums at John" ?
<Chipmonk> That seems awkward.
<Casey> The toothless old man . . .
<Russ> Good, Casey. I like that
<shorty103> " The old man babbled a tale to John with mispronounced words."
<Casey> Good! Rose didn't stay away too long.
<Chipmonk> Through toothless gums, the old man...
<Casey> yes, Chip!
<Bookpal> Both work - Casey & Chips
<Russ> Much better than what I had, that's for sure. Next sentence...
<shorty103> As the old man chud on one side of his gums, he began to tell
his tale to John.
<Russ> They sat in front of 'The Cock and Bull'.
<shorty103> I know there is a misspelling in there somewhere
<shorty103> I have no teeth, so I am trying to picture me telling a story
as an older person might
<Chipmonk> The old man spewed his gum at John?
<Russ> Teeth spewing forth, the old man's tail attacked John
<Goshwin> !
<Casey> LOL!
<Chipmonk> I'm laughing so hard I'm crying! Sorry Russ go on!
<Goshwin> his tale bit him!!
<Casey> Russ, you're too much!
<Bookpal> Now, it sounds like SF
<Russ> No need for me to put 'Dorbish's tavern' at the end of the sentence
<Casey> Same thing's happening to me, too, chip. Need to catch my breath.
<Russ> The sentence 3 should read "John didn't know the old man's name.'
<Bookpal> Dorbish's tavern made me think Dorbish would be important to the
story
<Casey> Should John sit down first next to the old man before he's attacked
by flying teeth?
<shorty103> lol
<Russ> It's just the name of the town, Book. I put it in later in the pp
(Stop Casey! I'm Trying to type)
<Goshwin> flinging teeth! (higgly piggly that is)
<Bookpal> See - I thought Dorbish was a person
<Goshwin> now that's what I call sinking your teeth into a story...
<shorty103> BWL everyone
<Russ> Like I said, it shouldn't be in that sentence. I think you proved
my point admirably, Book
<Bookpal> It proves Casey's point on how the reader sees the information
<Russ> sentence 4.....In fact, no one in Dorbish knew his name. Everyone
called him 'the old man'.
<Chipmonk> At first I thought Dorbish was a nationality you invented--like
Irish or Turkish.
<Russ> LOL, chip
<Chipmonk> Seriously, Russ.
<Russ> I know you were serious, but it still made me laugh. I see what you
mean.
<Russ> The last sentence is really ugly. Give me a sec to figure it out
<Bookpal> If we need a nationality maybe we can borrow Dorbish - I like the
sound of it.
<shorty103> I can't even remember the last sentence
<Casey> <Russ> The old man was almost incomprehensible as he spewed his
tale to John. John sat next to him in front of the 'Cock and Bull',
Dorbish's tavern. He didn't know the old mans name. In fact, he didn't
think anyone in Dorbish knew it. The entire town called him the old man.
John had spent all of his seventeen years in Dorbish and the old man had
always sat in front of the 'Cock and Bull', every day, from noon until
sundown.
<Russ> Still working
<shorty103> it sounds like a place where everyone passes by, and that by
being there everyday, he gets to know who's who in town.
<Bookpal> Makes me want to know why he sits there, day after day.
<Russ> John couldn't remember a time when the old man didn't sit in front
of 'The Cock and Bull', from noon 'til sundown
<Russ> Nope....Don't like it
<shorty103> yes, or it could be a public park, where everyone has to go
through it in order to go somewhere else in town
<Casey> Is noon to sundown significant?
<Bookpal> I expect it to be
<Russ> John couldn't remember not seeing the old man, every day, in front
of the tavern, from noon 'til sundown.
<Casey> From noon to sundown, John couldn't remember a day when the old man
wasn't sitting in front of the Cock and Bull.
<Bookpal> Good, Russ
<Russ> How about that double negative <g>
<Bookpal> It's getting better, and stronger anyway
<Chipmonk> Casey, yours sounds like John only remembers from noon till
sundown.
<Goshwin> don't use no double negatives
<Russ> thanks, Gosh <g>
<Casey> Yep. That's why I'm wondering how significant the time designation
is. I'm having trouble fitting it in.
<Russ> Casey, from sundown until noon, he's either drunk or passed out.
<shorty103> maybe John slept in, and that is why he only remembers him
being there from noon until sundown.
<Casey> When he wasn't drunk or passed out, he was sitting in front of . .
.?
<Bookpal> good point, Rose
<Russ> Yup, Casey
<shorty103> it was only a thought
<Casey> That brings in more interesting information than we had before.
<Bookpal> who is sitting "he"
<Chipmonk> I was gonna say that, Bookie!
<Casey> Bookie got me!
<Casey> he = the old man.
<Bookpal> I knew that
<Casey> When the old man wasn't drunk or passed out, etc.
<Bookpal> but it could be John
<Casey> Exactly.
<Bookpal> That's better
<Chipmonk> Isn't rewriting complicated--all the ways to twist a sentence
and its meaning.
<shorty103> yes, I hope mine has this good luck.
<Casey> But the point is being made quite well: That as one difficulty is
resolved, others are more noticeable. Revisions are made step-by-step.
<shorty103> very true
<Bookpal> I have a great book to help you "Choose the Right Word" (that's
the title) It helps with what Casey said tonight - making sure the reader
will have the same definition the writer meant.
<shorty103> sounds like a great book Bookpal
<Russ> Every Day, between drunken stupors, the old man sat in front of the
tavern, from noon 'til sundown (or is this just a bit too run-on)
<Bookpal> It is!
<Russ> Take out the last comma
<Bookpal> I think "every day" and "noon to sundown" should be there, but it
isn't right yet.
<Goshwin> sort of like frankenstines sentence. its spliced
<Russ> LOL Gosh
<Bookpal> Noon to sundown, day after day, the old man sat in front of the
tavern.
<Russ> I like it, Book
<Casey> Good, Bookpal!
<Bookpal> I think you are trying to get a mood set - this might give it one
<Goshwin> the old man sat in front of the tavern each and every day from
noon to sundown.
<shorty103> Every day, the old man sat in front of the tavern. Everyone
could set there clocks by him. Rain or shine, he came at noon and
disappeared at sundown.
<Bookpal> That's good - makes you wonder where he goes after sundown
<Russ> Hmmm.....Interesting, Rose. It intrigues me
<shorty103> just a thought
<Russ> a good thought
<Chipmonk> Good, Rose. Though I'd say people instead of everyone.
<Bookpal> disappeared is a good choice of words
<shorty103> in what way Bookpal
<Chipmonk> Just like Russ!
<shorty103> lol Chip
<Casey> disappeared gives an element of mystery to him.
<Bookpal> it makes you think sinister thoughts
<shorty103> yes, it just kinda came to me like that
<Casey> Do many people have clocks in your era/location, though, Russ?
<Chipmonk> Makes me think there's something secretive that might make the
story he's spewing interesting.
<Russ> I didn't want to say anything, Casey, but no.
<Chipmonk> Ah well.
<Casey> That was what I thought, after reading the chapters you sent.
<shorty103> what kind of stories did this old man tell, so I thought I
would put it in, but it is something to build on
<Chipmonk> Is this from the same story as the crispy critter?
<Casey> Then the reference can be to an agricultural activity, or a
biological activity (like eating)
<Russ> Nope. Just a short story I started quite a while ago
<Casey> Okay. Next.
<shorty103> what time era is it? Russ
<Casey> I'll do Rose's para.
<shorty103> oh goodie
<Bookpal> peoples stomachs could growl (noon)
<Russ> I would put it in the 1200's
<shorty103> okay, thanks
<Chipmonk> Oh, my time!
<Casey> Lornia arrived in St. John on Sunday, and everything was closed.
By Monday, she had gotten use to the street where the house was, but still
a lot of it was very unfamiliar. So Lornia decided to take walks and got
use to her surroundings.
<Casey> Rose, how would you begin to edit this?
<shorty103> I have no idea at this point
<shorty103> let me think it over for a minute or two okay
<Casey> Okay
<shorty103> Casey, I like the pp you chosen.
<shorty103> well, I have been thinking about it, but I can only see a
change in the first sentence
<Casey> Give us that one then.
<shorty103> Arriving in St. John, Lornia quickly found out it was Sunday,
and that everything was closed.
<Casey> That makes it sound as though she's lost track of the days.
<shorty103> yes, I guess it does
<Russ> What about...Lornia arrived in St. John on Sunday. Everything was
closed
<Chipmonk> Rose's first rewrite.
<shorty103> yes
<Bookpal> I like it, Russ. I had the same thought
<Chipmonk> Or. when Lornia arrived in St. John on Sunday all the shops were
closed.
<Casey> Everything was closed when Lornia arrived in St. John on Sunday.??
<Casey> Stronger, Chip. Yours doesn't have the indefinite "everything"
<Russ> Because she arrived on Sunday, and as everyone knows, nothing is
open on Sunday, Lornia found all the St. John shops closed for business
(just a little foolish, sorry)
<shorty103> knowing it was Sunday, Lornia tried to make herself familiar
with what she saw.
<Casey> My inclination is to use the more modern "stores" in place of
"shops."
<shorty103> I'm still working on it Casey,
<Chipmonk> That's kind of repetitive, isn't it?
<Russ> Only a little bit <g>
<Casey> You only need to say it's Sunday once.
<Casey> Keep going, Rose.
<Russ> Tightened Version (I'm getting a little punch drunk, sorry)
Arriving on Sunday, Lornia found all the St. John stores closed
<shorty103> Lornia arrived on Sunday, she soon discovered that everything
was
closed.
<Chipmonk> I think I like Russ's last one best.
<Chipmonk> It's tight--no excess words.
<shorty103> I'm trying to shorten it, but it's not working
<shorty103> for me anyway, it is working for Russ
<Casey> Okay, to help: You don't have to say Lornia and then say "she."
<shorty103> but I do like the way Russ put it
<Casey> Lornia arrived on Sunday and discovered that all the stores were
closed.
<shorty103> understood Casey.
<Russ> Short doesn't always = better. Like Chip said, "no unnecessary
words"
<Russ> Not to mean only short sentences
<shorty103> that sounds good Casey
<shorty103> what is the next sentence
<Bookpal> you can drop the "that"
<Casey> By Monday, she had gotten use to the street where the house was,
but still a lot of it was very unfamiliar.
<Casey> So Lornia decided to take walks and got use to her surroundings.
<Russ> Casey, Could you tighten that to .... Lornia arrived on Sunday and
discovered all the stores closed....?
<Casey> (I retyped rose's sentences at her request)
<shorty103> By Monday, the streets became a little familiar, but still
there was a lot to learn about the city.
<Bookpal> That's better, Rose
<Russ> I hate to duck out but my eyes are struggling to stay open
<Casey> Understand, Russ. Go get some sleep.
<Chipmonk> Okay, what was the final rewrite on Rose's para.
<Casey> She's working on the second sentence.
<Casey> By Monday, she had gotten use to the street where the house was,
but still a lot of it was very unfamiliar.
<Chipmonk> I think they could almost be one sentence or two.
<Casey> Rose, you use a lot of passive words: "had gotten use to" "Where
the house was"
<Casey> I'd like to see you use more action.
<Bookpal> By Monday, the streets became a little familiar, but still there
was a lot to learn about the city.
<shorty103>thank you Bookpal
<Bookpal> is it use or used?
<shorty103> what kind of action Casey
<Casey> She explored the neighborhood . . .
<Casey> You say "the house," but not whose house.
<Casey> You can sneak in relevant information here.
<Casey> Is this her brother's house?
<shorty103> yes, I do remember doing that to a curtain point, but being
very shy, I didn't want to make it seem that , I can't find the word right
now
<Chipmonk> Is she staying at this house?
<shorty103> no, it is a home for battered women
<Casey> The writer must be assertive and definite. The moment you hesitate
or become uncertain, that comes across in your writing.
<shorty103> yes, I think that is what has happened
<shorty103> I am a passive person, so I think that it shows in my writing
<Casey> Don't be afraid to say, The home for battered women. That's
relevant and necessary information.
<shorty103> yes, but it was the Salvation Army home for battered women
<Casey> Be passive in real life, but assertive when you write.
<shorty103> I don't want to get into trouble by using the Salvation Army's
name
<Chipmonk> Is this an autobiography, or fictionalized. Everything doesn't
have to be exactly as it happened.
<shorty103> that is easier said than done sometimes
<Casey> The exact name is not important, so much as what type of home this
is.
<Bookpal> are you going to say good things about the Salvation Army?
<shorty103> fictionalized, Chip
<Casey> It's much easier said than done.
<Chipmonk> Don't let the facts get in the way of the story.
<Chipmonk> Make up another name if you want.
<shorty103> I am trying to take the most important facts and put within the
story
<Casey> Yes. The Mary Gruin Home for Battered Women works as well as
anything else for a name.
<shorty103> yes, I know I should for that part, it would be safer all the
way around
<Chipmonk> Right.
<Casey> Agree.
<shorty103> Casey, could you make a note of that for me, so I don't forget
it
<Casey> I'll be sending you the buffer, but yes, I'll make a note of that,
too.
<shorty103> thank you
<shorty103> now is that all for the pp that you have chosen for me Casey
<Casey> In reading this, I agree with Chip. I think the 2nd and 3rd
sentences can be combined.
<Casey> The 3rd sentence simply says that she's taking walks to get used to
her surroundings.
<Bookpal> "So" at the beginning is telling, not showing
<shorty103> it is 2:52 am, and I am getting a little on the tired side. My
brain doesn't want to think, and my fingers are getting or trying to have
think for themselves
<Chipmonk> When Lornia arrived in St. John on Sunday all the stores were
closed, so she explored the neighborhood around the Mary Gruin Home for
Battered Women until the streets became more familiar.
<Goshwin> (mind is non functional at this time) *this was a recording*
<shorty103> I like that. sounds good to me at this time, but brain is going
in sleep mode
<Chipmonk> Well, off to bed with you then.
<Casey> Good, chip. That pulls together all the elements.
<Bookpal> You could work on it and email the results.
<Casey> Yep. NW usually doesn't go this long.
<shorty103> yes, but I will have to take another look at after I get the
buffer
<Bookpal> no problem
<Chipmonk> Yep.
<Casey> Okay. And Russ is sending you his suggestions, too.
<Casey> I'm ready to call it a night.
<Goshwin> (sigh)
<Bookpal> Same here - I've been in this chair too long
<shorty103> Casey, I am going to get some sleep now, good nite everyone,
Sweet dreams Casey
<Goshwin> don't suppose you could take a look at my pp?
<Casey> Bookpal and Goshwin, can we save your segments and tackle them at
another meeting?
<Casey> Yes, we can Gosh.
<Bookpal> Sure
<Goshwin> ok.. email them?
<Casey> I'm willing to do it live.
<Casey> Wanna go for it?
<Goshwin> Oh, ok..
<Goshwin> I am not very sharp at the moment.
<Casey> Me neither. But has that stopped us before?
<Casey> Keyhgoh reached the little Jump jet that stood on the tarmac and
admired its outline in the morning sun. It was a dual fan long range type
with just enough power to make mach one for short dashes. The little thing
had served so well since he finally mastered flying it. The other victims
of his self tutorials had faired poorly and were scattered about the air
field. He still had that painful twinge from the near disaster on his
first practice flight.
<Casey> Dew clung to the metal and the latch was slippery as he tugged the
release. The hatch popped open and he slowly climbed in. This day was
going to be very bright and beautiful. Lingering in the cotpit he watched
the sun reach its mid rise, he never thought of day that way before. He,
like most, spent his nights under the moons or at work never paying much
attention to the sun nor the blue sky. That was then, before everything
changed in a world that seemed so long ago.
<Goshwin> (fumbling in mind)
<Bookpal> I would delete the 2nd sentence.
<Goshwin> I have had comments as to further description
<Goshwin> No ref to his learning..
<Bookpal> I think it could come later - makes me feel like you - Gosh- is
talking to me
<Chipmonk> Gosh gets to pick it apart first.
<Bookpal> sorry about that
<Bookpal> jumping the gun
<Chipmonk> That's okay, we all love to pick on Gosh. It's hard not to.
<Casey> Here's an ax, Gosh. Take the first swing.
<Goshwin> no problem with that.. I am sluggish as it is..
<Casey> No rest for the weary writer.
<Chipmonk> You asked for it, Gosh. Have a go at it.
<Casey> I offered the opportunity to do this again when everyone's fresher
. . .
<Goshwin> HUmm so cutting?
<Goshwin> HUmm this is more of a descriptive sequence
<Goshwin> IE moving the other bit is in order. and replacing it with a
quick description of the craft
<Goshwin> color, and some shape.
<Casey> Write for us your revision of whatever sentences you're talking
about.
<Goshwin> kill This day was going to be bright and be.. etc etc
<Casey> Or shift it to after he's in the cockpit (sitting down and having
the time to notice.)
<Goshwin> true.. when in the cotpit he is lingering
<Goshwin> and contemplating
<Casey> Yes. And contemplation requires a slower pace of reading.
<Goshwin> so on approach we have action.. when in cotpit we have
descriptive
<Chipmonk> Is it cockpit or cotpit?
<Goshwin> cockpit?!?
<Goshwin> huh
<Casey> It's misspelled.
<Goshwin> cockpit it is
<Casey> You have "cotpit"
<Goshwin> he he ok
<Chipmonk> I thought maybe Canadians called it something different.
<Casey> cotpit is where he sleeps. (he he)
<Bookpal> I think it has rhythm, but the 2nd sentence jumps out as being
thrown in
<Goshwin> ah no one of those things that oddly snuck past the spell check,
else I did a change all by accident
<Bookpal> maybe it is a large apricot
<Casey> I want to combine the second sentence with the first.
<Goshwin> more of that fusion thing eh?
<Casey> sortta.
<Casey> In both sentences, he's talking about the jet. Why not combine the
separate descriptions into one?
<Goshwin> into one sentence? that's a large sentence
<Casey> Obviously, the repetitions are cut, and you can't include all the
details you have.
<Goshwin> (pondering it now)
<Casey> (I'm trying to make the chat screen small enough to read the para
and type at the same time)
<Bookpal> I printed it out - so I'm reading it over and over - I'm sticking
to leave it out - it reads smoother and at this point I don't care to know
that much about it.
<Casey> Keyhgoh reached the dual fan, long-range Jump jet that stood on the
tarmac.
<Goshwin> also skip the bit about learning to fly it?
<Bookpal> I care about Keyhgoh - at this point - Good Casey
<Bookpal> No, I like that part
<Goshwin> so in review (cut and paste)
<Chipmonk> It gives a bit of info about him and what's going on that he's
learning to fly and wrecking jets.
<Casey> I'm confused about the litter on the strip. Are those other jets
he's smashed? what is this junk he's referring to?
<Chipmonk> Yes, I was going to ask that you make that clearer too.
<Goshwin> the other jet.. yeh he smashed a few..bent gear, burnt engines
<Casey> That's not clear.
<Goshwin> (ponder ponder)
<Bookpal> I understood "victims" meant other aircraft he had ruined
<Casey> "victims" normally refer to live creatures.
<Casey> I initially wondered if he's killed wingmates.
<Goshwin> subjects?
<Bookpal> I know - but it came across to me as other jets
<Bookpal> guys see their planes as "she" don't they?
<Casey> "Still had that painful twinge . . ." Is this a physical injury?
<Goshwin> yes, but I didn't see the usage here
<Goshwin> Yes a physical injury
<Casey> "he still had that painful twinge in his (neck, back, knee,
shoulder . . .) from
<Goshwin> Ah I see.. and agree
<Chipmonk> How about painful twinge in his (add body part)? To make it
clearer.
<Casey> twinky fingers, Chip
<Goshwin> oops echo time again
<Chipmonk> Casey's too fast.
<Chipmonk> Make it concrete.
<Chipmonk> As opposed to abstract, not as in cement.
<Casey> You have an interesting contrast of strong nouns and verbs and weak
adverbs.
<Casey> "slowly climbed in" doesn't answer the "why slowly?" question in my
head.
<Casey> "sluggishly climbed in" would imply early in the morning and
partially asleep.
<Goshwin> Slowly was an effort to imply mood and low energy (morning)
<Goshwin> I see.. humm
<Bookpal> A writer I know is a Commander in the Navy - she has at least 20
books out - and more sold for 99 - she puts too much detail about the ship
for me - I think I could go on one blind folded and find my way around -
but the guys who check them out from the library think they are great
<Goshwin> detail is a problem.. it has to be balanced against the story's
progress. So I limit what I put in
<Bookpal> I agree
<Chipmonk> Too much tech narrows your audience too, I would think.
<Bookpal> I know every nook and cranny on an aircraft carrier now
<Goshwin> (think I need coffee as well) (grin)
<Bookpal> I agree, Chip
<Goshwin> yah tech babble
<Goshwin> it is a turn off
<Casey> I can take some, out of interest to learn new things, but too much
and I skip through it to the next dialogue sequence.
<Bookpal> Same here Casey
<Bookpal> Boy, if you should make a mistake you will lose your readers
<Casey> Absolutely true.
<Goshwin> however I don't think we have tech babble in this segment
<Casey> Nope, there's not.
<Bookpal> No, I don't either
<Goshwin> (well at least that aspect is ok)
<Casey> "He never thought of day that way before." Which way? As
beautiful?
<Goshwin> yes
<Bookpal> Sun at mid-rise
<Casey> That statement is too far away from the description it refers to
then.
<Bookpal> I like mid-rise, new description
<Casey> I like that too.
<Goshwin> I can see the disconnection..
<Chipmonk> He is nocturnal?
<Casey> This day was going to be very bright. . . . He had never thought
of day as being beautiful before.
<Goshwin> I would think the insertion of beauty directly in that sentence
<Goshwin> ahh beat me to it
<Goshwin> grin
<Chipmonk> That works.
<Goshwin> I agree with the solution (and problem)
<Casey> (leave in place the stuff I didn't retype)
<Bookpal> yep
<Goshwin> *nodd*
<Casey> Finally, I want to know what the "everything changed" is.
<Bookpal> it's a hook
<Bookpal> hooked me, anyway
<Casey> Everything is one of those darned indefinite words, tho. There are
still fly-able ships. that hasn't changed (much) I assume.
<Casey> There are still people, or what passes off as "people."
<Casey> therefore, I've already shot your "everything" to hell.
<Bookpal> his life, his world, his everything?
<Goshwin> well we could use.. before the world died... instead of
everything changed
<Casey> or before the bombs??
<Casey> He's alive, so the world hasn't died.
<Casey> There's food, water, stuff.
<Goshwin> no bombs... it is subtler than that..
<Goshwin> biotech devices
<Casey> Happened in his lifetime?
<Goshwin> happened the previous year
<Casey> thought so, by the "seemed so long ago" part.
<Chipmonk> Before his world had changed?
<Goshwin> but after what he went through.. it seemed a long time
<Casey> before the war?
<Casey> or disaster, or whatever catastrophe you chose.
<Casey> "In a world he could only yearn for?"
<Goshwin> well at this point, being explicit would not be required since
the reader already knows about what happened.. However this sentence is
used
to cast a mood
<Casey> "seemed so long ago" seems almost cliché
<Bookpal> Is this the beginning of the story - or have we missed some info?
<Chipmonk> Need tea desperately.
<Goshwin> (need tea myself)
<Casey> I'm going to get water.
<Casey> 2 min. break for everyone to get beverage of choice.
<Bookpal> Back with a Diet Coke
<Casey> Back. I didn't have to boil my water.
<Chipmonk> Still waiting on my tea.
<Bookpal> You are on Eastern time, right?
<Casey> I am, yes. It's nearly 3 a.m.
<Bookpal> Hope you can sleep in
<Casey> Actually, I can't.
<Bookpal> We should finish another time
<Goshwin> *blink* just sat back down.. yah sleep sounds ok to me
<Chipmonk> Yes, we stay up too late then we're useless the next day.
<Casey> I promise, we will get to your submission, Bookpal, even if we have
a special meeting to do so.
<Casey> (Any ol' excuse to get together, right?)
<Bookpal> Hey, don't sweat it - I could pick a paragraph some other time
<Casey> It's your call, since it's your paragraph.
<Bookpal> What is the subject for next time?
<Casey> Passive-Active voice
<Casey> We can probably fit it in.
<Chipmonk> If Crispy isn't back for that we HAVE to send him the buffer.
<Casey> Yep. That's the workshop he specifically requested.
<Casey> And I have to finish my homework on that one.
<Bookpal> It's not one I feel I'm having a problem with - I just sent one.
<Bookpal> I should say unless you see problems
<Casey> "I just sent one?" I'm confused.
<Bookpal> What I sent for tonight - wasn't that prepared
<Casey> It didn't need to be prepared. That would have taken the fun out
of the exercise.
<Bookpal> yep, you're right
--------------------------------------