CHAT ARCHIVE - 11-13-99, Critiquing Fiction

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Nov 14 02:27:16 1999

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<Casey> Boy, giving an assignment sure clears cyberspace!
<Sea Witch> I haven't written a crit I'm afraid. I only read the passage less than half an hour ago
<Casey> I didn't want anyone to write a crit yet--only read it.
<Casey> Who the author is is a secret (by request of the author).
<Casey> The chicken!
<kissfan> LOL
<Sea Witch> Bwark!!!!
<Casey> I read the story weeks ago, so your recall of details will be better than mine tonight.
<Sea Witch> I wouldn't bet on that.
<kissfan> LOL I doubt it
<Casey> Well guys, perhaps we should turn to our topic tonight?
<Casey> "How to Critique Fiction"
<kissfan> yep I guess so
<Casey> Hokey (to quote Russ)
<Casey> Everyone here know that there are different kinds of critiques?
<Sea Witch> Dokey (to quote Witchie)
<Casey> chuckling.
<Sea Witch> Are you refering to content - hostile, helpful, constructive etc?
<Casey> Not exactly, although critiques can be all those things, too.
<Sea Witch> Then say on. I'm learning something new here
<Zach> Critiquing is tough from both sides.
<Casey> I was thinking more along the lines of grammar critiques, critiques centering on storyline alone, or technical finesse.
<Sea Witch> I usually cover all bases if I can
<Sea Witch> That makes mine a conglomerate I suppose
<Casey> It's usually helpful if the author indicates what kind or type of critique he is interested in.
<Casey> When a specific kind of crit is not requested, usually the author does get a conglomerate feedback.
<Sea Witch> Not a lot of authors, particularly beginners, know what they really want or expect from a crit though
<Casey> Exactly. A group offers crits, the newbie submits a story, then sits back and waits for the flood of replies.
<Sea Witch> In my experience I give constructive criticism. Potential talent needs to be nurtured but not patronised
<Casey> More war-hardened criminals--I mean, writers--usually recognize difficulty with a particular scene and request crit to get others' opinions and perspectives.
<Sea Witch> That sounds like a good idea
<Sea Witch> This criminal certainly benefits from that heh heh heh
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> but taking "general crits," how do you approach the process?
<kissfan> me too
<Zach> With terror, Casey :-)
<Casey> lol, Zach!
<kissfan> yep for sure LOL
<Casey> But there is honesty in your answer.
<Sea Witch> First I discuss the story, then the grammar, then the technique then I suggest ways of how they might improve
<Casey> For those who are critiqued, it helps, too, to be familiar with the level of skill of the person doing the crit. That can help you judge the critiquer's perspective.
<Zach> Very true, Casey. You can get really baffled or discouraged by a crit, only to learn later that your critic has little experience.
<Sea Witch> Yes, a certain young wannabe writer springs to mind.
<Casey> Excellent point, SW: the suggestions for improvement part. Making statements like, your characters seem shallow, don't necessarily help a writer who thinks the main protag is the best creature ever invented.
<Zach> I'll stay out of that one, SW. Don't wanna know.
<Casey> Be specific in a crit. "Your character didn't work for me because I didn't get a sense of history about him."
<Sea Witch> I'll mention no names.
<Casey> Thanks, SW.
<Casey> Understanding why you're having problems with someone else's scene or passage helps clarify aspects of writing for your own stories.
<Sea Witch> No, if you crit you must give a reason and suggest a solution
<Casey> you're less likely to have weak motivations for your own characters when you've just told someone else that their character motivation was weak.
<Zach> A lot of times, though, I've seen people give unfair crits because it wasn't the sort of story they like to read or write. It's hard to be objective and fair about somebody's wizard story, if you're really tired of wizard stories. I know; I've been there.
<Casey> Very true, Zach.
<kissfan> yep
<Zach> True, Casey. I've corresponded with a good writer lately, who will be a great writer once he learns to put some action and conflict and crisis in with his characters.
<Casey> That's why I rarely comment upon a storyline, unless the logic is skewed or confusing.
<Zach> I try to impart what I've had hammered into me over the past year or so.
<Sea Witch> You're a good hammerer Zach <g>
<Casey> (We miss that right swing of yours, too!)
<Zach> When it's possible, which brings up the other difficulty, namely, it's easy for authors to get defensive about their work. Again, I know; I do all the time.
<Sea Witch> You wouldn't be human if you didn't get riled about your creative baby
<Zach> I apologize again for bailing out on you guys. In retrospect, it was a very good decision. My stress level is at an all time high right now; I'd have been of less than no use to you in MAN.
<Casey> We bailed first through out failure to produce, Zach. No need to apologize.
<Sea Witch> Don't worry Zach. We were all under pressure of some kind. I still haven't been able to get any constructive writing done and it's bugging the hell out of me
<Zach> But get a load of this, guys: I'm thinking of signing up for a filmmaking workshop next year. New York Film Academy. Sounds like fun, eh?
<Sea Witch> Sure does!
<Casey> Very fun! Think of all the things you can learn!
<Sea Witch> Isn't NY a bit far to go for seminars?
<Zach> I love film, and writing may turn into being able to actually present a story in a worthwhile way. Publishing sucks so badly these days.
<Zach> They teach it in Miami in summer, Witchie.
<Zach> I can drive that in two days.
<Sea Witch> Yeah, it sucks more than a gravitational anomaly
<Zach> They have a four-weeker, which sounds pretty good. Costs about $7K altogether (ouch).
<Sea Witch> Florida! Sun, sand and alligators.
<Zach> Yippee! Love those gators.
<Zach> And Latino mobsters dealing cocaine.
<Sea Witch> From a distance! LOL
<Casey> (Back to topic:) Until a writer masters the art of word use/phrasing, the story being told is of secondary concern.
<Sea Witch> <g>
<Sea Witch> Yeah, the way they express themselves is way important.
<Casey> So in my own crits, I concentrate on how the author is telling his story, not on what story is being told.
<Zach> Hmm, interesting point, Casey. I may disagree with it, once I think about it a little more.
<Zach> When you say how the author is telling the story, do you mean structure?
<Casey> (What do you mean by structure? It may be different from my own sense of the word.)
<Zach> How the story is put together. Does it satisfy the basic story requirements of character, conflict, change?
<Zach> Does it focus on a central protagonist, with a strong central theme?
<Casey> Yes, Zach. I address those issues in my crit.
<Zach> Does the story move, or is it boring?
<Zach> Then I agree wholeheartedly.
<Zach> Grammar may be taught and style comes of its own accord, but without proper structure you don't have a story worth proofreading.
<Casey> What I meant by what the story is, is the subject matter being addressed.
<Zach> Right. Agree.
<Sea Witch> That's true. But how do you impart knowledge like that?
<Zach> I see a lot of meandering in stuff I read.
<Sea Witch> Without hurting feelings?
<Zach> Don't know.
<Sea Witch> I usually go for the direct approach. Be honest.
<Casey> One of the things I do, Witchie, is I don't address ALL the difficulties I see in a story.
<Sea Witch> Then it's up to the writer
<Sea Witch> Just the major ones?
<Sea Witch> Some time ago I received a synopsis for a story that had potential. Unfortunately, everything else about it was awful.
<Casey> I pick the one problem that is most obvious and attack that. If the writer can successfully correct for that difficulty, then the lesser ones sometimes work themselves out. Or every other problem seems less insurmountable.
<Casey> Always be honest. Just don't be malicious. Dishonesty doesn't help anyone.
<Sea Witch> The writer tired to shock with every line. By the end of the second paragraph I was falling asleep
<Casey> Ahhh, the problem of overkill!
<Zach> I read a book like that not too long ago, Witchie.
<Casey> How awful, Zach!
<Sea Witch> He thought the story gripped a reader by the throat. I looked upon it as a blunt instrument! Heh heh
<Casey> (not published yet, I hope)
<Casey> It's so much easier to spot mistakes in others' stories than in your own!
<Zach> There were so many killings during the course of the thing, that I ended up skipping over the laboriously lurid descriptions when I saw one coming, so I could complete the reading; the plot wasn't bad at all, there was actually some philosophical undercurrent to it, but the killings just got boring after ten or twelve (all done the same way, it seems, with guys strangling each other and ripping heads off or whatever).
<Sea Witch> I told him it was pointless sending the whole MS because I wouldn't be able to read it.
<Sea Witch> I told him why.
<Sea Witch> He agreed with me whole heartedly
<Zach> There goes another friend, eh?
<Zach> Restraint isn't always easy to teach, but if you succeed you've opened up a whole world for a writer.
<Sea Witch> Not really, he's set up his own site and invited me to contribute. I visited and declined. I'm not into badly written sex
<kissfan> LOL
<Zach> heh heh. even worse than badly done sex.
<Sea Witch> As seen by college students!
<Zach> Students! Marvelous!
<Casey> I suspect it comes back to the current attitude that writers must shock their public.
<Chipmonk> Boo!
<Casey> Repeatedly. In the same story.
<Sea Witch> Trouble is, in this day and age, the public is virtually unshockable
<Sea Witch> Yikes!
<kissfan> yep so true
<Casey> Exactly, SW.
<Casey> I attribute that to the numbing of our senses by newscasters and slasher movies and the vast number of "shocker" stories.
<Sea Witch> There seems to be a literary school of thought, due largely to the Booker Prize, that if you write words like fuck and cunt often enough people will buy the book. Yawn.........
<Sea Witch> If you cut out the language then the tome will be very slimline
<Sea Witch> And usually puerile!
<Zach> Remember what Dorothy Parker said once about a book, Witchie: the covers of this book are too far apart.
<Sea Witch> That's a great Critique!
<crip> I've been home since 8:30 but the comp was in pieces from being fixed so it's together now
<Zach> (or maybe it was Ambrose Bierce)
<Casey> Glad you could join us.
<crip> me too
<Casey> I've heard that before, Zach. I still like it.
<Zach> Parker definitely said (my favorite):"This is a book which should not be tossed aside lightly; it should be hurled with great force."
<Casey> lol!
<Sea Witch> LOL Zach
<Casey> Remember when critting: If the author's handled something well, tell him so!
<Sea Witch> That's very important.
<Sea Witch> Crit the good bits as well as the not so good
<Casey> Yes.
<Casey> When you submit a work for critique and there is a particular segment you wonder about, mention it! If you don't want your grammar critiqued, request that as well.
<Casey> As the submitter, you have the ability to limit or direct the kind of feedback you get.
<Casey> Don't be afraid to say, "This is a rough draft. I just want to know if the scene works; I know the grammar hasn't been corrected yet."
<Casey> Anyone have suggestions from their own experiences?
<Casey> It's been a loooong time!
<DoctorLes> I can't believe I finally made it (albeit a little late).
<DoctorLes> Hi Chip. LTNS, to you, too.
<Sea Witch> My sympathy, I intend to do just the same thing soon!
<Casey> Have most people read the story I sent around?
<Sea Witch> Yes
<DoctorLes> Sorry, not me.
<Casey> Shall we attempt a critique of Snow?
<Sea Witch> OK (sheepish grin)
<Casey> Want to do a general crit, or shall I specify a type?
<Sea Witch> Your call Casey
<Casey> Okay, then let's address storyline alone for now.
<Sea Witch> Storyline it is then
<Casey> Anyone brave enough to start?
<Sea Witch> Well volunteered Casey! Heh heh
<Casey> Okay. I know when I've been had!
<Sea Witch> LOL
<kissfan> HEHEHE
<Casey> I like the beginning. It caught my attention immediately.
<Sea Witch> Yeah it did well until I got to the line At least the apes.....
<Casey> what happened to you at that time, SW?
<Casey> Too obvious a reference to Planet of the Apes?
<Sea Witch> It made no sense that there were apparently no other animals. Other than rodents and worms. No birds, insects or anything.
<Sea Witch> Surely insect should have survived a holocaust
<kissfan> ya I agree with SW on that it was strange
<Casey> When there are animals (alligators) who today survived the dinosaur holocaust?
<Sea Witch> And frogs. Don't forget the frogs.
<Sea Witch> Frogs survived the dino extinction
<Casey> Well, we're actively deforming those poor critters.
<Sea Witch> Yeah, I know. But they are still survivors....just
<Sea Witch> It was evident very early on that it was some sort of dream.
<Sea Witch> You too
<Casey> That there is a dreamlike quality to the story assures that the ending isn't a total shock.
<Casey> But what about the ending itself?
<Sea Witch> I felt it was a cop out
<Casey> Is there a point where logic comes into question?
<Casey> Explain?
<Sea Witch> There was no real reason why he should have woken up.
<Sea Witch> He threw his watch into the river. Why? Who was the mad man? Himself or a ghost in the works?
<Casey> What about the impression throughout the first 3/4 of the story that he's a loner?
<Sea Witch> The impression was there but did that really have a bearing on the story?
<Casey> Good questions. If those were developed more, there could be an intriguing issue addressed.
<Sea Witch> He was in a holocaust world with dead and dying people yet he spoke of his family as if they were alive. Which of course they probably were. There was no sense of WHEN
<Casey> And his family members were going about doing very ordinary things, it seems, while he was eating worms.
<Sea Witch> There was certainly no sense of time. In a dream state you don't get that. Had he been part of a virtual reality programme then surely there would have been a sense of real time
<Casey> Yep.
<Sea Witch> A lot on inconsistencies
<Casey> "brainwashing our minds into giving up secrets or even serving in their armies . . ."
<Casey> This is given as the basis of the program.
<Sea Witch> Then the brainwasher weren't very good at it.
<Sea Witch> It was an amateurish effort.
<Casey> My concern with this was/is: there are drugs that extract truth from people (in 1/2 hour), without the elaborate expense the enemy went into here.
<Sea Witch> To successfully brain wash a mind has to BELIEVE. I wasn't convinced
<crip> perhaps there was no such thing at the time, Casey.
<crip> it did sound like sci-fi after all
<Casey> Then a time-frame reference needed to be made so the reader understood this.
<Casey> Which presents the other problem: that we (modern readers) know we survived to a time when truth serum exists. It would lessen the plausibility of the story.
<Sea Witch> The author tried to make it feel real by having a few of the subjects commit suicide. That didn't work for me either
<Sea Witch> Unless this gadget was standard field equipment for enemy intelligence officers in which case the test subjects would have been prepared
<Sea Witch> Mind blocks etc
<Casey> That's why I thought the fact that this might be a virtual reality experiment, using VR to direct reality, might need to be developed more.
<Sea Witch> You think?
<Casey> If that is, indeed, the author's intention.
<Sea Witch> Then why wasn't the protag and his rescuers more surprised to see the set up?
<Sea Witch> It only mentions in passing that several soldiers were hooked up to the rig.
<Casey> I get the feeling that the ending was rushed.
<Sea Witch> Rushed? On board an express train more like <g>
<Casey> That transitions were rough in the end leads me to believe that.
<Casey> Now, now, SW!
<Casey> The author is getting a copy of this buffer. Please keep that in mind.
<Sea Witch> That story could be so much better
<Sea Witch> Sorry author, but I did say I was honest <g>
<Casey> It does have great potential.
<Casey> I would like to see the possibility the author begins to present developed further.
<Sea Witch> Yes. What I did like about the story was the fact he (she?) didn't linger on useless prose.
<Casey> I was surprised the story was so short. I read it first when it was half finished and thought the author would go for a longer work.
<Sea Witch> The work could certainly use a few more lines, that's for sure
<Sea Witch> There were one or two lines that didn't make much sense though
<Casey> Do you remember which ones?
<Casey> (This is a draft, BTW)
<Sea Witch> "It just makes them sick and the unlucky ones tunr people in the night when they should be in hospital hooked to an IV making them better." What does that mean?
<Casey> "turn people in the night" means hustling drunks, etc. (robbing people)
<Casey> From what I understood of the sentence, anyway.
<Sea Witch> OK I'm a victim of colloquialism then
<Sea Witch> It makes sense to me now
<Casey> Did you read the story, Crip? do you have a different interpretation?
<crip> I read a little bit of it. Let me refresh my memory real quick.
<Casey> Good point thought, SW: that colloquialisms will limit reader understanding.
<crip> hmmm, I'm not sure what it means either.
<Casey> Some strategically placed commas could help clarity in a few sentences.
<Sea Witch> It sure does. I'm fairly well read on Americanisms, have been educated by the best <g> but that one was unfamiliar to me
<Sea Witch> Yeah, commas are either abused or neglected. Either way they can't win!
<Casey> We really need to talk about something besides farting, barfing, and sex. grin
<Sea Witch> Heh heh heh
<Casey> We've obviously neglected your criminal activity education.
<Sea Witch> How is Zen BTW?
<Casey> Alive and surviving!!
<Casey> I was pleased and surprised to read his posts on Delphi.
<Sea Witch> And doling out pig shit candies!
<Casey> lol!
<crip> yuck
<Sea Witch> Or was it horse?
<Sea Witch> That chocolate bar routine had a high Eeeeewwwwww factor too
<Casey> I'm obviously behind times on Delphi posts. (The bane of work!)
<Sea Witch> I make ten minutes to visit Delphi every morning
<Casey> Don't explain now. I've heard too much about chocolate bars from him to want another description right now.
<Sea Witch> Back to the crit?
<Casey> Hokey.
<Sea Witch> Hokey in Britslang means - something suspicious or iffy
<Casey> In American, too. H'okay is better here.
<Casey> Uhhhh . . . Snow.
<Casey> Remember the story?
<crip> that's about all Snow is good for *L* oh I'm terrible
<Sea Witch> Heh heh heh
<Sea Witch> OK back to the story
<Casey> For shame, Crip! Remember my admonition. The author is getting this buffer.
<crip> fine, delete that comment.
<crip> I wouldn't want to hurt the author's feelings.
<Casey> Okay.
<Sea Witch> I think you may have to edit some here else s/he will thing we're a bunch of twits
<Casey> you may be a twit. I'm an idiot. (Or was that, Revolting?)
<Sea Witch> How lucky is the moron, he doesn't give a damn. I wish I were a moron. My God perhaps I am! heh heh heh
<crip> well, old people have their uses I guess
<Casey> he he he! I like that one, SW.
<Sea Witch> That's a good one Crip. One hundred and one things to do with a wrinkly
<crip> *L* indeed
<Casey> Oh, don't start him in that direction!!
<Sea Witch> Oops!
<crip> but I'm in such a good mood, casey. why not?
<Sea Witch> back to work?
<Casey> Yes. Let's show people that we really can stay or topic!
<Sea Witch> Even if we can't really LOL
<crip> *LOL* I'll believe it when i see it
<crip> I think this crit is dead and buried anyway
<Casey> You've said very little, young'un. Any insights yourself?
<Casey> Any reason why you stopped reading when you did?
<crip> no particular reason
<crip> just busy
<Casey> (lost interest? Interrupted and thrown off the comp?)
<crip> lost interest
<Casey> Where did you lose interest in the story?
<crip> after the old man, it just didn't sound right
<crip> like the author didn't care anymore
<Casey> Do either of you get the impression that the author at some point, suddenly saw a direction for the story and took off in that new direction?
<crip> no, it just sounded rushed
<Sea Witch> The story rambled so much it didn't seem to possess any direction
<Casey> I wondered because of the lack of foreshadowing. One moment the protag's alone; the next, he's part of an army.
<Sea Witch> The bloke just seemed to walk aimlessly about. We didn't even know he was heading for the river until, like magic, there it was
<Sea Witch> Did he unconsciously make that happen?
<Sea Witch> If so, how did he override the VR programme?
<crip> must have been magic like you said
<Casey> Yes. What "clicked" inside his head that brought on the awakening?
<Sea Witch> Why would the VR give him a way out?
<Sea Witch> Was there a friendly enemy or mole?
<Sea Witch> It sounds like he might have been helped but by who? It would have been an interesting path to explore
<Casey> There's a possibility.
<Sea Witch> That should have been "by Whom" Witchie is getting tired
<Casey> Yes. I think if the author delves deeper into his subject/premise, some interesting possibilities can arise.
<Casey> The author seemed to take the easiest route regarding the story's resolution. But the story is unique and has unique possibilities.
<Sea Witch> The story ended way too early
<crip> yes it certainly did
<Casey> I agree.
<Casey> However, the direction is now known, the questions have been asked by the readers, and a rewrite would have a firm direction to begin with.
<Casey> Foreshadows should be worked in.
<Sea Witch> So, do we get a chance to crit the story's next reincarnation?
<Casey> If I can talk the author into rewriting it.
<crip> probably never after the author reads this crit *L*
<Sea Witch> Then s/he shouldn't have asked <g>
<Casey> I think that would be a great experience--to watch a story's evolution.
<Casey> (S/he didn't really ask. I asked if I could use the story.)
<Sea Witch> Damn right. I quite often see that for myself with WV.
<Sea Witch> Oops! My mistake
<Sea Witch> I thought we had a more than willing victim
<Sea Witch> sorry, author!
<Casey> Nope. Casey Coercion is what you got tonight.
<Sea Witch> lamb to the slaughter
<crip> Casey coercion?
<Sea Witch> She threatened to show off her PC
<crip> ah
<Sea Witch> (wicked giggles)
<Casey> Yeah. I held 'em down, twisted their arm, held a knife to their throat and asked sweetly, "May I please use your story in NW's?"
<crip> sounds about your style, Casey
<Sea Witch> I never knew you were so caring Casey!
<Casey> Few people know, SW.
<Casey> How often do authors rewrite stories for you, SW?
<Sea Witch> Quite a few. I crit and invite them to try again. I award merit by publishing. I've got a couple of stories waiting to be published
<Sea Witch> Not everybody gets that invite BTW
<Casey> Very cool.
<Casey> I don't coerce many people into letting me use their work, either.
<Casey> This particular author, though, has demonstrated tremendous improvement and potential, though.
<Sea Witch> I have two of my own shorts on the back burner. They must have bubbled dry by now. Shame.....
<Casey> Along with a book, if I recall.
<Sea Witch> Yeah, somewhere.
<Sea Witch> If I ever get to finish them I'll send them for a mauling....I mean critique
<Casey> We're good at . . . ummm . . . critiquing. Yeah, that's the word.
<Casey> That will be fun. We'll look forward to the opportunity.
<crip> yes indeed
<Sea Witch> Not in this life the way things are at the moment
<Casey> After all turn around is fair play.
<Sea Witch> Sure is. You gotta receive as well as dish out
<Casey> I despair, too, of completing anything in the near future.
<DoctorLes> Sorry I haven't said anything tonight, folks, I'm taking care of my son and his two friends by myself tonight.
<DoctorLes> I better get going. I'd like to check in with you again next time though.
<Casey> That's okay, Les. It's hard to comment upon a story you haven't read.
<Sea Witch> Don't worry. Kids are like the ocean. You can't turn your back for a second!
<crip> i hate to jump off the subject for a sec to share a movie crit, I saw this movie called 'dogma' today, i'm going to see it for a 2nd time tomorrow. Don't waste your lfie away, go see this film!
<crip> okay i'm done.
<DoctorLes> Crip, what's it about?
<crip> life
<DoctorLes> Just a quicky.
<Sea Witch> What the universe & everything thing?
<DoctorLes> Sounds intriguing.
<DoctorLes> A little esoteric, perhaps ;)
<Sea Witch> It hasn't been released over here yet. I haven't even heard of it
<crip> it's about 2 angels trying to find a loophole back into heaven, comedy/drama. probably one of the most original screenplays I've ever heard
<Casey> *Jotting it down on the list of things I wish to do in the next 10 years.*
<crip> you've never seen a movie like this before.
<Sea Witch> 10 years? Bloody luxury!
<Casey> That in itself may be a wish, Witchie.
<crip> Casey, you still haven't seen Elizabeth yet, don't bother
<Sea Witch> Who's in it?
<crip> *L*
<Casey> Don't envy me yet.
<DoctorLes> Good night, all. Being an atheist, would it make a difference to me?
<crip> matt damon/ ben affleck/ chris rock
<Casey> I saw Elizabeth!
<crip> really????
<Sea Witch> I haven't
<crip> you know drles, I'm not a real religious guy either and I loved it
<DoctorLes> OK, I'll check it out.
<Casey> Goodnight, Les.
<crip> very thought provoking
<crip> nite
<DoctorLes> Next time, Pen Pals. Sleep well all.
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