CHAT ARCHIVE - 2-6-99, Active & Passive Voice

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       ICQ Chat Save file   
Started on Sun Feb 07 03:30:01 1999

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<Casey> Tonight's topic is Active and Passive voice.
<seawitch> Sure is a lot of active voice tonight
<Zach> Oooh, active and passive.  Love it!
<Zach> I am a profound proponent of the properly used passive
construction.
<Zach> And alliteration, as well.
<zentao> He meant a-literation.
<Zach> Or il-literation.
<Casey> I was going to lump all active voice discussions together, then
all passive voice discussions together, but I want to give the reference
books from which my notes are taken, so will alternate.  You wouldn't
believe how hard it is to find good active/passive references!!
<zentao> abliteration.
<seawitch> Hey, watch it with the big words already
<shorty103> Casey, would you say that in my writing, that I have a
passive voice over the active voice?
<Casey> Yes, Rose, you do.
<BeckyB> Other than knowing what is active and what is passive, I have
little comment so I'm going to mostly listen and learn.
<shorty103> It's a hard habit to break, since I am very passive to begin
with
<Casey> I think (hope) you'll see the differences between the two
tonight and understand how to convert your sentences from passive to
active--where appropriate, that is.
<seawitch> Do you think that dialect is a problem? The Lancashire accent
is quite passive
<Casey> Dialect should be written realistically or not at all.
<Casey> If passive is the dominate form, then by all means, use passive.
<seawitch> Not what I meant.  Until fairly recently I had a tendency to
write as I speak.  Big mistake.
<Casey> Oh!  Understand now.
<zentao> In the US, publishers urge writing as one speaks. 
....Unfortunately most of the time.
<BeckyB> What is wrong with writing as you speak?
<Casey> Luckily, I don't write like I talk.  I don't think that's
necessarily a good practice
<shorty103> Casey, I don't really make clear what I mean in some of the
things that I have written,
<seawitch> I am hopelessly passive
<Chipmonk> Could get some of us in a lot of trouble.
<zentao> Passive done correctly can be powerful.
<Casey> Exactly, Zen.
<seawitch> I'm all ears
<Casey> Before we jump ahead of ourselves, let's look first at what
active and passive is, in order to identify it for those who are
uncertain.
<zentao> Nothing is wrong with writing as one speaks, Becky, provided
one speaks comprehensively.
<BeckyB> Good point.
<Casey> Who among us speaks with proper grammar?
<zentao> Not.
<shorty103> not I
<seawitch> Bain't me noither
<Casey> If writing as you speak gets the story on paper, that's fine. 
Do so.  But once it's written, do go back and edit it for grammar and
technique and effect.
<BeckyB> I used to be just about perfect because my mother would correct
anything that was wrong, but I've been slipping a bit over the last few
years.
<shorty103> in that case Casey, if one doesn't have a good handle on
grammar, wouldn't editing be a little difficult.
<Chipmonk> So, get a book on grammar.
<Casey> Yes, it would be, Rose.
<zentao> Shorty, if you don't have a good handle on grammar, you should
get one before you try to write a novel.
<zentao> Grammar is utterly necessary.
<Casey> Okay:  A passive verb tells what has already been done to the
subject.
<Casey> Subject =3D noun, what or who the sentence is about.
<BeckyB> For example - Active - The cat ate the rat.  Passive - The rat
was eaten by the cat.
<shorty103> I do to a point, but there is still somethings I still have
to learn, and by writing, I feel that it will strengthen it
<seawitch> Will someone please tell Max that?  He had another go at me
on Friday
<seawitch> He thinks I'm one step down from the antichrist because I
told him to buy a grammar book
<BeckyB> It's okay to break from the grammar rules with a purpose, but
if you don't understand them to begin with your meanings won't be clear.
<Chipmonk> I think you should all stay after and clap erasers for talking
in class.
<zentao> If he persists in this, he will be given a conditional
membership -- on probation, so to speak.
<Casey> An example of passive is:  The *glasses and bottles* (subject)
with their exploding highlights sounded like a battery of little bells
when they *were touched together* (verb) by the bartender.
<Zach> Grammar is certainly necessary.  If you write ungrammatically for
20 years, how will that help you learn grammar?
<Casey> Good point, Zach.  Writing without the proper foundation simply
reinforces a bad habit or habits.
<shorty103> Casey, I'm sorry for intruding, but how was my grammar in
what you had read of my story?
<BeckyB> Just a bit of trivia.  Writers who spell and use grammar
correctly have a lower incidence of Alzheimer's than those who don't.
<Casey> Continue to write, but get a grammar book and incorporate one
new lesson at a time, in order to reinforce and practice what you are
learning.
<shorty103> thank you and understood
<Casey> An active verb tells what a subject does NOW.  A revision to the
above example:  "The glasses and bottles, their highlights exploding,
*rang* like a battery of little bells when the bartender *touched them
together.*"
<Casey> The effect of the second example on the reader is immediate and
vibrant.  We see this action taking place before our eyes.  We're
watching it happen.
<Casey> In the first example, the action has already happened, so we're
being told after the fact.
<Casey> Active voice lends immediacy to the third-person point of view.
<Casey> Long narrative passages that describe action but seem weak may
benefit from the change from passive to active voice.
<BeckyB> Because I lack much experience in my writing so far, I have
usually tried to keep things in active unless I think the passive
portrays the emotion better.  Not because one is better than the other,
but it is much easier to screw up passive.
<Casey> Passive conveys mood and atmosphere better than active does, in
my opinion.
<seawitch> I agree with you Becky 100%
<Casey> These examples and much of the information already presented
comes from Revising Fiction:  A Handbook for Writers by David Madden,
copyright 1988, NY: Penguin Books, pp. 54--55.
<BeckyB> We should try an exercise writing a paragraph using both active
and passive to see the impact change.
<Casey> We can do an exercise now.  Here's the passive; everyone write
an active version.
<Casey> My first visit to Boston will always be remembered by me.
<seawitch> I will always remember my first visit to Boston
<BeckyB> I will always remember my first visit to Boston.
<BeckyB> My visit was unmemorable.
<Casey> lol!
<Chipmonk> Boston is going to stick in my head for along time!
<zentao> I remember Boston.  First trip was last trip.
<Casey> You've got it!
<Zach> Boston!  What a first trip.
<seawitch> Are we talking about Boston, Lincolnshire or Boston, Mass?
<Casey> Either one.
<zentao> I was speaking of the Massachusetts version of that reality.
<Casey> You can specify one of them in your rewrite if you want that
clarity.
<Casey> It might be warranted!
<shorty103> When I went to Boston, there were things I couldn't forget. 
<BeckyB> I think shorty's is still passive.
<BeckyB> Her verb is still in front of her subject.
<shorty103> I can't help it, I trying
<Casey> Think actively.
<Casey> Like you are doing this thing right now.
<BeckyB> Having the subject before the verb isn't always active, but it
is usually a good indicator.
<Zach> But Shorty's is about as good as you'll get that sentence.
<seawitch> How about - Boston, that first trip I'll never forget
<shorty103> stepping out on a Boston street is like taking your life in
someone else hands
<BeckyB> Taking would be removed.
<zentao> Like could be removed as well.
<zentao> And that would make it "more" active for it would then remove
the analogous.
<shorty103> so that is an active voice?
<BeckyB> Yes.
<zentao> Grammar:  ...is like putting your life in the hands of another.
<BeckyB> Zen is right.
<shorty103> okay, I'm learning slowly, but learning
<Zach> Going from simile to metaphor, Zen old buddy?
<Zach> I always prefer metaphor, myself.
<Casey> And there's a rumor that editors don't care much for "like"
comparisons.
<zentao> oh metaphor and simile, how doth we abide with thee?
<Bookpal> carefully
<zentao> Very!
<BeckyB> The sights, sounds, and stench of Boston (Mass) fill my mind as
I try to block the memory of my "holiday".
<zentao> How about the blasted traffic!!!
<seawitch> Boston, home of the Lincolnshire Potato.  Naw, that sounds
more like a title.
<zentao> ROFL
<Casey> Passive voice usually uses some variation of an auxiliary verb,
such as "there is," "was" "will be" "have been" "is being" and "could
be," to name a few--plus a past participle ("built" "written" "directed"
etc.), plus if a person or actor is mentioned, "by"
<zentao> So we do away with all past predicate -- not.
<Casey> "This book was written by me." is an example of what I just
wrote.
<seawitch> This is good stuff.  Keep it coming
<Casey> "I wrote this book" puts it into active voice.
<Casey> I'll write the active, you guys put it into passive.  (Here's a
fantasy:)
<Casey> The publisher gave me an advance.
<BeckyB> I'm discovering I have a much harder time changing from active
to passive.
<Bookpal> An advance was given to me by the publisher
<seawitch> I was given an advance by the publisher
<shorty103> with the advance the publisher gave me, I decide to go out
on the town.
<Zach> An advance was received by me, having been sent by the publisher.
<snore>
<BeckyB> Zach's was pathetically passive.
<Chipmonk> The advance the publisher offered was accepted by me without
dickering even though it was only twenty dollars to cover my postage
expenses.
<Zach> Thank you, Becky.  <bowing>
<Casey> Zach's good at whatever he writes.
<Bookpal> true
<Zach> Hey, stop that.
<BeckyB> I think it's interesting that Chip kept it passive by changing
who was doing the action in the sentence.
<zentao> I accepted the advance from the pub- even though it only
covered my expenses.
<BeckyB> instead of publisher gave, I accepted.
<Zach> Are you going to talk about those necessary uses of the passive
voice, Casey?
<Casey> Yes, Zach.  Getting there, oh impatient one.
<Zach> Okay, okay.  <pant>
<Casey> If you notice, passive voice almost always requires more words
to write than active voice does.
<zentao> A sure sign, that!
<shorty103> that I agree with Casey
<Bookpal> good point
<zentao> Not.
<seawitch> Well that explains the doorstop novels I suppose
<BeckyB> great, find me a publisher who pays by the word and I'll be
sure to write passive.
<Casey> Switching from passive to active:
<Casey> 1) transpose the subject and the object
<Casey> As Becky pointed out earlier.
<zentao> I should pull one of my super half page compound complex
sentences that are written in active voice.  heh, hhe.
<Casey> Example:  The bill will have to be approved by Congress.
<seawitch> Congress will have to approve the bill
<Bookpal> Congress must approve the bill.
<seawitch> Isn't an imperative active voice?
<Casey> I would say so.
<Chipmonk> Congress doesn't approve of Bill.
<zentao> Congress won't approve the bill until they let a lot of hot,
foul air.
<BeckyB> In order for the bill to be approved, Off their butts the
congress must get.
<Casey> lol!
<zentao> *trying to be polite, mind you*
<Zach> Satire: Congress must break wind yet again.
<zentao> Love it, Zach!
<Zach> heh heh
<Bookpal> good headline, Zach
<Zach> Yeah: CONGRESS BREAKS WIND.  RECESS CALLED.
<Chipmonk> Congress broke wind loudly.
<Zach> Wind was broken by Congress. Panic ensued.  Flatulation
continues.  Details at 11.
<Zach> Aiiieeeeeee!
<Casey> LOL!  We've got Zach on a roll.
<seawitch> Japanese terrorist blamed for outrage
<Zach> Hideous biological weapon set off in subway.  Hundreds evacuated.
<Zach> Hazmat claims not to have viable defense.
<Casey> Okay, okay.  Second way to switch:  2) Give the sentence an
active subject.
<Chipmonk> Congressional Cafeteria Banned from Serving Boston Baked
Beans for Lunch.
<Casey> 2)  give the sentence an active subject.  i.e.,
<Casey> The book was written in 1981 becomes, Mary wrote the book in
1981.
<Casey> You guys do:  The tire will have to be changed.
<Bookpal> Change the tire.
<zentao> Change the tire, wife!
<BeckyB> I should change the tire.
<Casey> lol!!  Leave it to Zen . . .
<Chipmonk> The tire changed.  It is now a pogo stick.
<Zach> The tire will have to be changed.
<Bookpal> love it, Chip
<Zach> Let's see.  You'll have to change the tire.
<Zach> Change the tire!
<Zach> But if your POV character is some lazy boob, he would surely say,
"The tire will have to be changed."  It demonstrates and develops the
character.
<Casey> Dialogue falls within its own rules and handling.  You're
absolutely right, Zach.
<Chipmonk> How can you make this active:  Zen and Zach were made by Zen
and Zach?
<Zach> Man, that's good, Chip.
<Casey> Zen and Zach are mad. (as in crazy)
<Zach> Z&Z made Z&Z
<Chipmonk> Can't transpose.
<zentao> Zen made Zen; Zach made Zach.  Or did they?  Perhaps the Devil
in the Deep Blue Sea?
<Chipmonk> Zen and Zach made themselves.
<Casey> To make active subjects:  "It is expected . . ."  can become,
"We expect."
<Casey> It is felt . . .          I feel
<Casey> It is thought . . .      Many people think . . .
<Casey> That also gets rid of that nasty "it" that makes me so crazy.
<Casey> Now if I can just eliminate a few that's . . .
<zentao> It is appropriate when neither a he nor a she :-)
<BeckyB> In some of my college classes they taught that using it in that
way is grammatically incorrect.
<Casey> Yep.  But that goes along with the need to have passive voice at
times.
<shorty103> how do get around using, like names, or anything else too
much, and Casey, you know what I mean by this statement.
<Casey> By playing with your sentences--rearranging them, trying
different ways of saying the same thing.
<BeckyB> Rose you mean " Sara was reading Sara's book and thinking about
what Sara would do tonight?
<zentao> so now we have no neutral gender ?
<shorty103> yes
<Casey> Look at all the different ways of saying the same thing that
have already been given tonight.
<Bookpal> I haven't met a "neutral gender"
<BeckyB> I try to go back and see if I can stick pronouns in instead
when it gets wordy.  But you have to think about if they can still tell
who is doing what?
<shorty103> okay, but I just thought I would throw a monkey wrench in 
lol
<seawitch> I have they hang out at the Funny Girls bar in the town
centre
<zentao> Perhaps it would be "genderless", Booky
<Bookpal> that's better, Zen
<zentao> But the point is, it is the neutral for he/she.
<Chipmonk> I've been neutered.
<Casey> Then do you use they to form the plural of it?
<Zach> they, their, them
<zentao> Of course, one editor (NF) said, "now we use 'they.'"
<Casey> Great!  More obscurity!
<Zach> It's a tough issue, since we aren't allowed to use the masculine
to indicate either gender anymore.
<Casey> The infamous "They"
<zentao> During that fad, they became both the singular and plural.
<Zach> I've seen the idiocy of switching between he and she.
<Zach> Then there's s/he.  Eeeuuuuuu.
<Bookpal> When I hear they I always ask "Who"?
<Chipmonk> Use plural when possible?
<Casey> I do too, Bookpal
<seawitch> Solves a lot of problems
<zentao> I use the masculine.  Formal writing is formal writing.  And
the feminists can go play with themselves, which they already do.  I am
known to stand for total equality.  Let's not castrate good grammar.
<Zach> I agree, zen old buddy, but you know as well as I do that English
grammar, being part of a living language, does and can change over time.
<Bookpal> I use masculine too
<Chipmonk> Combine She he and it into one word--shit.
<Casey> I still adhere to tradition, too.  I aim for clarity rather than
popular fad.
<zentao> A few years ago, one of my NF editors sent me the great "PC
guide" to writing.
<BeckyB> Chip!!
<Bookpal> love it, chip
<Casey> That's a great one, Chip.
<Zach> Boy, Chip, that's worse than anything I did tonight.
<Zach> Am I glad.
<zentao> Sometimes I use s/he
<Chipmonk> I will go wash my fingers off with soap now.
<Bookpal> Sheeeheeeit!
<zentao> Is that related to Shiite?
<Bookpal> southern accent maybe?
<seawitch> Oh god, not middle eastern politic puhleeese
<Zach> Yeah, zen, in the same way that rap music takes advantage of one
of the few words in the English language beginning with a silent "c."
<BeckyB> What I try to do is if we are talking singular then it isn't
hard to say earlier something about their gender and then you can really
mean he when you say he or she when you mean she.
<BeckyB> More people and you can use the plural They.
<zentao> What about the several living specimens of human hermies?
hermorphodites.(sp)
<BeckyB> But yes, it isn't always possible.
<Zach> Hermaphrodites.
<seawitch> It is the operative word here
<zentao> the ones that are, in fact, it, neither male nor female.  I
have to write about those individual anomalies sometimes.
<Casey> I'll stick with the traditional handling of gender, and the
editor can edit my he's into whatever form he/she prefers.
<Zach> That's the way I do it, Casey.
<Zach> <c>rap music has taken over the industry, they say.  Another one
bites the dust, as someone else said.
<Bookpal> I was asked to revise a 150 page policy - putting in he/she -
I just put "Officer" surprised everyone -
<Casey> When the passive voice should be used:
<Zach> Passive voice should be used when it best suits the character,
events, mood, or plot movement.
<zentao> Great defining there Zach.
<Zach> One of my short stories ends with the line, McMurty felt himself
lunge.  Boy, is THAT passive.  But absolutely essential.
<zentao> Except that it carries a powerful message.
<Casey> Agree Zach.  Also, when the subject of the sentence dictates
passive voice.  (At issue is whether the subject of the sentence is the
subject of the paragraph.)
<Casey> i.e., is the subject less important than what is acted on?
<Bookpal> active
<zentao> Passive actually carries much more power and potency than
active ever can.  But it must be utilized correctly.
<Zach> Yes.  McMurty was so psychologically shocked, he was out of his
mind.  How better to portray it?  And to say, McMurty lunged, would not
only have been wrong, it would have been stupid.
<zentao> Exactly.
<Zach> Thank you, zen.  I knew you'd know.
<Zach> But I'm here to tell you, there are idiotic "editors" out there
who would change that line.
<Bookpal> Zach, it tells me he was out of control- lunged makes me think
he chose to lunge
<Zach> Right, Booky.  It was all over for him at that point.
<Chipmonk> Give examples, Casey?
<Casey> Okay.  The Department of Commerce of the United States increased
the incentives to encourage producers to export.
<seawitch> They turned the labour force into slaves
<Chipmonk> Active.
<Casey> The what (the Dept. of Commerce . . .) is not necessary, and
only confuses our understanding of the issue.
<Casey> Here, the issue is more important.  It reads better in the
passive:  Incentives were increased to encourage producers to export.
<seawitch> Wouldn't it be easier to say - the US Dept. of Commerce... or
is abrev. not on
<Chipmonk> You want to emphasize the incentives, not who increased them.
<Zach> This passage you wrote, Casey, prompts me to ask a question: have
you held a session yet on Dramatic Writing?
<Casey> No, Zach.
<Zach> Do you think it's a worthy subject?
<Casey> Yes, I think it's a worthy subject.
<zentao> Perhaps it is time, then, Hardcase.
<Casey> Want to guest teach such a session, Zach?
<Goshwin> Dramatic yah I like.. yah yah
<Bookpal> I was going to say the same thing, Casey
<Zach> Example, from your passage above.  Commerce sweetened the pie. 
Producers fell all over themselves getting their stuff down to the
docks.
<seawitch> Gosh you're so good
<zentao> That's cliché all over the place, Zach.
<Zach> I think zen disqualified me, Casey.
<zentao> Zach, you are not taking the tease well.
<zentao> You hardly write cliché, much less hackneyed.
<Casey> Zach, I can't get you to teach a workshop yourself, so the next
best thing is to have you guest teach NW.
<Casey> References used for this half:  Edit Yourself:  A Manual for
everyone who works with words by Bruce Ross-Larson, copyright 1982, NY:
W. W. Norton & Co., pp. 29--31.  (Which is a great, although highly
technical book for those who are interested.)
<Casey> Also, Strunk & White, The Elements of Style, 3rd ed., copyright
1979, NY:  Macmillan Publishing Co., Inc., pp. 18--19.
<Casey> Depending upon the choice of active or passive, can change the
meaning and emphasis of a passage.
<Casey> for example:  The dramatists of the Restoration are little
esteemed today.
<Casey> Modern readers have little esteem for the dramatists of the
Restoration.
<Chipmonk> The first sentence sounds like they should not be
esteemed, while the second sounds like a matter of taste.
<zentao> That is true, Chipper.
<Casey> The first also emphasizes The dramatists, while the second is
talking about Modern readers.  The subject shifts.
<zentao> There is more info given in the first version.  The second,
though voiced actively, loses the sublties of inference.
<zentao> The subject does shift.  And so does the slant.
<Chipmonk> Yes.
<Zach> Slant--good observation.
<Zach> Both work.
<zentao> I did take journalism a very long time ago <g>
<Casey> Here, the choice comes down to clarity, and what point(s) the
author intends to make.
<zentao> Except that the slant of the first is more to my taste,
politically speaking.
<Casey> Further complications come when half a sentence is active and
half written passively.
<Casey> Zen's given me permission to use a wonderful excerpt from SE1.
<Casey> That they were translights, the hunter was sure; that they were
High Fleet registered, he couldn't really tell.  Were they High Fleet
ships, they were masked and silent runners, no insignia apparent, no
beacon resonating signature--an illegal thing, except in war.
<Casey> Defining a sentence as active or passive is dependent, not on
the active or passive sense of the dependent clauses, but only upon the
active or passive sense of the main clause
<Casey> (Now I'm quoting Zen verbatim.)
<Casey> The first sentence has its main clause last in both elements. 
And those are active.  The dependent clauses, which appear before in
both elements, are written in passive.
<Casey> Chip, Russ and I had great fun early this morning trying to
rewrite Zen's excerpt in active voice.  I thought I'd share the
excitement we had with you guys tonight.
<zentao> One point.  The second sentence is written in passive voice.
<Casey> See if you have better luck than we did eliminating the passive
voice while retaining all the information Zen managed to get into his
two sentences.
<Goshwin> The hunter was sure they were High fleet registered
translights..
<Chipmonk> The hunter was sure they were translights, but couldn't tell
if they were High Fleet registered.
<zentao> But he wasn't sure they were High Fleet.
<Chipmonk> No drama there.
<zentao> Try again.
<zentao> He was only sure they were translights.
<zentao> Keep the facts when rewriting.
<Goshwin> The hunter was sure they were high fleet registered
translights, yet could not tell.
<Casey> The ships were translights, but there was no insignia to confirm
their High Fleet registration.
<Chipmonk> That shifts the whole meaning, Gosh.
<Casey> You just contradicted yourself, Gosh!
<Chipmonk> Couldn't tell whom?
<Goshwin> I took it to mean, he had a hunch but could not prove it
<Casey> The hunter had a hunch they were High Fleet registered ships but
couldn't prove it.
<Chipmonk> Oh, I thought you meant he wasn't allowed to tell anyone.
<Goshwin> Casey got it
<zentao> Such evocative style. <teasing>
<Casey> But it's lost all the mood of Zen's piece.  It's simply
straightforward and sterile.
<Goshwin> now comes the trick.. mood
<zentao> Go for it.  Insert mood and rewrite the entire snip in active.
<zentao> The mood is ominous.
<Casey> (And using background music doesn't count here.)
<zentao> Oh, and write it with "style", your own, but with style.
<Goshwin> The hunter knew they were high fleet registered, but there
forms were black and unreviling.
<Casey> But their black forms were void of insignia.
<Goshwin> that would be in the next sentence
<zentao> But he DIDN'T know.
<Goshwin> ahh then it would change entirely
<zentao> He only KNEW they were translight battle carriers.  Huge,
powerful, dangerous.
<Chipmonk> The hunter saw the translights only as a dark nothingness
against the stars.  Unmarked, unregistered, they foretold of war or
worse to come.
<zentao> Read the snip.  Hold all the information in rewrite.
<Casey> That they were translights, the hunter was sure; that they were
High Fleet registered, he couldn't really tell. Were they High Fleet
ships, they were masked and silent runners, no insignia apparent, no
beacon resonating signature--an illegal thing, except in war.
<Goshwin> The hunter knew they were translights by the shear number of
stars they blocked, That was all he knew, they had no markings nor
transmitted ID. (now that really messes things around
<Goshwin> Replace one coma with period
<zentao> What about the rest of the information, Gosh?
<Goshwin> next sentence I guess.  he he
<Casey> I like Chip's attempt best so far.  But even that omits the
hunter's uncertainty.
<Chipmonk> The hunter pulled the translight over to the curb and asked
to see the registration.
<Casey> LOL!
<Goshwin> he could not know if they were high fleet ships, their lack of
marking being illegal except in war (a stab a finishing)
<Casey> Chip's got the right idea!
<zentao> ROLF.
<zentao> Oh gawd, chipper. No fair.  I can't stop laughing.
<Chipmonk> So they shot him.
<Chipmonk> Then they shot the witnesses and went off to eat pancakes and
say F-k and Aw geez a lot.
<shorty103> somewhere in the darkness, the hunter saw what looked like
High Fleet registered, but could tell for sure. The insignia was not
apparent, and the beacon wasn't resonating a signature, an illegal
thing, except in war.
<zentao> By the way, in rewrite, you don't have to hold to two
sentences
<shorty103> I know that I might have forgotten something, but what I'm
not sure, but how was that, if it passes
<zentao> Now I am glad I chose this back-assward example, Hardcase.  We
would have never gotten chipper's "get out your registration" piece.
<Goshwin> A hole appeared in space as a translight made its presence
known. The hunter could not tell if they were fleet registered since no
markings or beacons were present. Such things were illegal except during
war and that is what worried him
<zentao> Teacher, tell Rose how she did.
<Chipmonk> Hmmm, some day do a satire on Gathering.  Put note in file.
<Casey> Am trying to go back to read it.
<zentao> ,drumroll....>  Rose chews nails.
<zentao> the waiting is killing us....
<zentao> Will she pass muster.
<Casey> I'm screaming.  The screen keeps jumping; but Rose did good.
<zentao> I'm teasing, trying to tell you "you did well."
<zentao> Great grammar, Hardcase
<shorty103> I'm glad, I try to think about it , and then write, instead
of write before I think
<Chipmonk> Good idea.
<Casey> I went back and read Gosh's, too.  Now we've begun to get mood
in this segment.
<zentao> I can't write in think-mode.  I write in not-think mode.  Else
it turns out like shit.
<shorty103> But still I feel that I had missed something within that
paragraph.
<Goshwin> This is much as I write, several passes required before it
falls into place
<Russ> Hunter detected translights, but couldn't tell if the ship
carried High Fleet registry.  They ran masked and silent; no insignia,
no beacon resonating signature--an illegal thing, except in war. 
(there's my quick two cents)
<Chipmonk> Nothing matches the mood Zen imparted in the original though.
<zentao> Good job, Russ. Like it.
<Casey> Very good, Russ!
<Chipmonk> That's the best.
<Casey> Now our protagonist has a name:  Hunter.
<zentao> That's because Zen writes in writers trance.
<Russ> Thanks <blushing>.  BEWARE ALL, I have been inspired tonight!
<Goshwin> Distorting blackness suddenly appeared before the hunters eyes
as translights made there presence known.
<Casey> A date with a wife will always inspire  :-)
<Russ> LOL, Casey
<zentao> I like that, Gosh, but it isn't in my story.
<Russ> But also true ;-)
<Goshwin> he he now I'm writing my crap.. he he
<zentao> Except that you don't write crap. Well, unless of course your
are writing crap.
<Goshwin> Stars deflected and space shivered as the huge forms of
translights suddenly obliterated the stars from the hunters view..
<zentao> So, do we insert the rewrites into SE1, or do we preserve the
original?
<Russ> I decided tonight I will no longer write to please the ever
present 'they'.  I will only write to please and inspire one person,
myself.  So, let the crap flow as long as I like it
<zentao> sounds like shifting as described in Gath.
<Casey> Excellent philosophy, Russ.
<zentao> Good, Russ.  Now we'll see some real writing from you.
<Russ> I hope so, for my own sanity
<Chipmonk> Oh, poor Russ, he is now demented and rebellious.  Never to
be published, just like us.
<zentao> One never knows.
<Casey> Exactly, Zen.
<zentao> Publishing has to change soon.  Or they go to ash.  And I think
we will live to see it.
<Chipmonk> I of course, was teasing, Russ.
<Goshwin> (now it has little resemblance to what we started with )
(grin)
<zentao> We know that, chipper, but I thought it would be good to
address the issue anyway.
<zentao> Back to passive active.  So what can passive voice do?
<Russ> There are enough options as far as self publishing out there now
that if I do write something I truly like, I can do it myself, Gosh
darnit! (and I know, Chip <g>)
<zentao> And how does one construct it so that it has power.
<Casey> Passive can instill a mood that active, by its vary nature, is
unable to produce.
<Casey> Or at least equal.
<Goshwin> Power.. humm
<zentao> Can we construct active that evokes?
<zentao> Let's try.
<Russ> What is the scene?
<zentao> Any.
<zentao> Whatever you want.
<Russ> Do you have a preference of emotion to evoke?
<Casey> He'd never felt as strong or as angry or as hurt.
<zentao> Needs more, Casey.
<Russ> Pain coursed through his body, centered in his groin so recently
kicked
<Casey> I go to passive to evoke mood, so I don't think mood in active
mode.
<Casey> Another kicked in the groin scene!
<Casey> . . . his recently kicked groin???
<Chipmonk> No! No!
<Goshwin> The hunter could not know if they were fleet registered for
they bore no markings (yah I'm still at it)
<Casey> tap tap.  Uh, Goshwin, you can stop now!
<Goshwin> he he
<Russ> He rubbed his eyes, hard.  Nothing.  No light, no movement.
<Casey> All those incomplete sentences!!
<zentao> Nervous now, the mist around him settling, the hunter scanned
as best he could, listening for, feeling for, any sign of the elder's
imminent return.
<Chipmonk> The dark heaviness of depression sat on his shoulders like a
living presence of gloom.
<Russ> He he.  I break all rules tonight!
<zentao> That one is still complex, but completely active.
<zentao> And it has mood, holds style, and evokes.
<shorty103> She rubs cream on her hands as the pain crips up to her
elbow, hoping it would ease it before it got to there.
<Casey> Russ really is revolting.
<zentao> I love it.
<Russ> I don't smell that bad, Casey
<Casey> (Actually, I'm revolting, so you have to be something else.)
<Russ> Despicable?
<Casey> That's good!
<Chipmonk> I'm disgusting.
<Chipmonk> Hmmm, what happens if we turn our sentences around?
<shorty103> so what kind of voice did I use for my sentence, I believe
it was passive, but I could be wrong .
<Casey> Your piece gives me a vivid picture of your protagonist, Rose.
<Chipmonk> It was active Rose.
<zentao> around sentences out turn we if happens what, hmmM
<shorty103> really!
<Russ> Look at the main clause of your sentence, Rose.....She Rubs,
active
<Chipmonk> She rubs cream, instead of The cream was rubbed...
<Casey> You have her actively acting.
<zentao> or ?dnuora secnetnes ruo nrut ew fi sneppah tahw,mmmH
<shorty103> oh, now I think I'm getting the idea, I think it's starting
to sink in like the cream, slowly!
<Casey> Yes, Chip, explain yourself before Zen continues.
<Goshwin> The building was shattered by the missile as was the air.
(shrug)
<Chipmonk> Turn our active sentences passive.
<zentao> The missile shattered the building; it shattered the air.
<zentao> Which sentence? Any?
<Russ> His body was wracked with pain from the recent kick in the groin
<shorty103> the pain had begun to reach the elbow before she got the
cream rubbed in.
<shorty103> now is that a passive voice?
<Russ> ( are we all fascinated by pain tonight? )
<Casey> (pain evokes--easy out.)
<Chipmonk> Dark and heavy, the depression was felt  as  if it were a
living presence of gloom.
<shorty103> Casey, did I use a passive voice this time?
<Casey> Yep
<shorty103> sometimes with a little thought, I can do it.  But other
times, I don't have a clue
<zentao> Corded, rippling muscles bulged on her thighs as she took, in
one great effort, the 7 foot wall.
<zentao> Now, what is that?  Passive or active?
<Goshwin> Humm I am still not sure of the active/passive.. I just write
by feel.. (shrug)
<zentao> the jumper is a horse.
<shorty103> I think that was active voice Zen
<Casey> The more you practice consciously, then one day it will become
second-nature.  You'll begin to write effectively unconsciously.
<Chipmonk> Muscles bulged is active.
<Chipmonk> She took is active.
<Russ> Gosh, if the subject of your sentence is doing something, that's
active.  If it has something done to it, that's passive
<shorty103> okay, I starting to get it, so I have a lot of rewriting to
do, isn't that right Casey
<Casey> Yes, Rose.  But then, this is your first draft, and first drafts
almost always need reworking.
<Russ> Unless your name is Asimov
<shorty103> understood on that one
<zentao> Rewriting is imperative.
<Casey> Right.  Few writers produce publishable work the first time
their words are put to paper or screen.
<zentao> And not just editing on screen.
<zentao> Actual retyping -- physically retyping.
<Chipmonk> Rose, I am rewriting a book for the--oh, eighth time right now.
<zentao> I do it at least twice to three times.
<Chipmonk> Zen is forcing me.  He is so mean!!!
<shorty103> Zen, Casey has a hard copy of my story, and she is going to
give me pointers on where I can improve on something, just about
everything in my eyes.
<zentao> You shouldn 't be so lazy, chipper.
<Russ> A quick question; when is it time to say enough is enough.  It's
as good as I can make it
<zentao> When you are happy with it.
<Goshwin> Humm there does come a time to simply call it done..
<zentao> when it says "YES."
<Casey> I stop when I find myself changing a word, only to change it
back.
<Casey> By the time I get down to changing single words, I know it's as
good as I will make it.
<Russ> The reason I ask is I met a self published author who had
obviously rewritten so many times, his work lost all of its passion.  It
came across dry and mechanical.
<Casey> That's a problem.
<Goshwin> humm I just realized I automatically write in the active.. By
default.  (boing)
<zentao> When one does that, it is destructive. Sometimes the first
draft is the final or a sentence, paragraph or portion.
<Casey> Did it have passion before he edited it to death?
<Russ> I don't know, but I do know the end result was just plain boring.
<zentao> But rarely can one write the final evocative work in draft.
<zentao> Always save all drafts, and rewrites.
<Casey> Some people don't write with passion to begin with.  That's why
I ask.  Their writing is simply, this happened, then that happened.
<Russ> that is a good question, Casey.
<zentao> Then some just don't ever believe that they should have to
rewrite.
<Chipmonk> And remember where you put the box you saved them in.  ;(
<zentao> Or some want an editor to do it for them.
<Casey> Very good point, Chip!
<shorty103> yes, I agree Zen,  but I hope that I do write with passion,
I feel that at least some of what I have to say is important enough to
be put that way.
<Casey> Your book is about passion, Rose.
<Russ> Passion is the one thing I strive for in my writing. 
Unfortunately, I feel I come up short most of the time.
<zentao> If it has passion, it evokes deep emotion in both the reader
and the writer.
<zentao> I call it "impact."
<Russ> This is a favorite topic of mine also, Zen
<shorty103> well, I feel that the impact that I will make, will evoke
passion in some of the reader, and I just need to find the passion to
finish it that way that I had started.
<Casey> A story that doesn't evoke emotion in the reader might as well
be nonfiction.
<Casey> Altho a lot of NF is quite passionate.
<zentao> Casey, does Rose's present manuscript hold passion?
<Russ> I feel a writer needs to be able to open up and explore his dark
side (I know, I know) to really evoke passion.
<Casey> It causes an emotional reaction in the reader.
<Casey> Which is exactly what all writing must do.
<zentao> I write lots of NF that evokes much passion.  so much so that
they want to string me up.
<Russ> Zen, My wife says "so it was you and not Salman Rushdie who wrote
Satanic Verses"
<shorty103> So I did begin with passion, and didn't even know until now.
I thought I was just releasing my frustrations.
<Goshwin> I might comment that it is wise to watch it with the passion.
It must have meter and place, Else you end up with something like one of
the those poems that indulgent angst ridden teenagers write.. (shrug)
<zentao> angst is not passion.  It's wallowing.
<Casey> Passion in writing comes from strong emotions in the author. 
Your feelings translate into what you write--consciously or
unconsciously.
<Casey> That's why when the author is ambivalent or confused, those also
come across in what they write.
<Russ> I am not speaking of uncontrolled emotions running rampant
through your story, Gosh.
<shorty103> Casey, is there a way that Zen could read a part of the ms
or the whole in any way possible.
<zentao> No, rose.
<zentao> Not until it is a final rewrite. Just before final manuscript
format.
<zentao> I only read finals.
<shorty103> understood Zen
<zentao> So get it to that stage, then ask.
<shorty103> okay
<Russ> Gosh, did you ever read "Into Thin Air"?
<Goshwin> Nope
<Casey> In the group (all of Z7), only polished pieces are given for
crit.
<Russ> Hokay, let me think of another example
<Russ> "Ender's Game"?
<Casey> Read that.
<Russ> did you like it Casey?
<Goshwin> yah I have/had it
<zentao> We will do crit small excerpts that are drafts, but that is
all.  max length being maybe a 2k word chapter.
<Goshwin> (nodding at Zen)
<zentao> But only when the individual is a member of a workshop.
<shorty103> am I a member???
<Casey> Yes!
<shorty103> okay, I wasn't sure
<Casey> I liked the book, Russ.
<Russ> What about it did you most enjoy?
<Russ> ( I do have a point here, Casey)
<Casey> There was a contrast of revulsion and empathy that the reader
experienced that was unusual.
<Casey> Story-wise, I liked Ender's progression up the ranks.
<Casey> (I figured you did have a point, Russ)
<Russ> Is that what made you like the book? Ender's progression up the
ranks? (he he)
<Russ> Or was there something else that kept you turning the pages?
<Casey> Actually, it was the total emotional involvement--my emotional
reaction to everything he experienced.  What would they do to him next?
<Russ> Exactly (and thanks Casey).  That book evoked passion.