CHAT ARCHIVE - 3-6-99
Devices, Part II: How to Show, Not Tell

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Started on Sun Mar 07 01:09:16 1999

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<Casey> Welcome to another fun-filled night at New Writers (I hope)
<Chipmonk> Fun filled?
<Casey> Well, it sounded better than "drudgery-filled"
<Chipmonk> True.
<BeckyB> I think I'd rather have cream filled. Yum.
<Chipmonk> LOL!!
<BeckyB> So what is the topic tonight?
<Casey> Part II:  Devices:  How to Show, Not Tell
<Casey> Last week we ended with Metaphors and Similes.
<Casey> This week we pick up with Foreshadowing.
<Casey> Foreshadowing is simply setting up information that is significant
later in a story.
<BeckyB> foreshadowing can be really fun.  I'm working on trying to figure
out a mixture of acurate forshadowing and false forshadowing so the reader
will be held in suspence and not sure which it will be.
<Casey> chuckle.  Becky should do a How to Confuse Your Reader for Greatest
Impact class.
<shorty103> okay, so it's just the opposite of flashbacks
<BeckyB> now that would be fun. :-)
<Casey> Yeah.  Flashbacks are slipping in past history; foreshadows are
predictors or hints of things to come.
<BeckyB> well, except it isn't a flashforward.
<Casey> Foreshadows help to eliminate the shock of objects suddenly
appearing from nowhere, like guns, that are what the protagonist uses to
save his skin.
<BeckyB> So when you suddenly pull a heat seeking missile out of your bra
it doesn't sound out of place. :-)
<shorty103> so one could say that a foreshadow is a thought by a character,
or something that may happen to that character later on in a chapter of
towards the end  of the book
<Casey> If a protagonist sells his grandfather's gold watch to pay for his
child's tonsilectomy, the writer should, earlier in the story, have the
character glance at the gold watch so that it becomes a viable object the
protagonist can use.
<Casey> Yep, Becky!  I love your example.
<BeckyB> thx
<Casey> Such use helps to prevent the reader from feeling blindsided or
cheated.
<Chipmonk> Like laying things out to be used later.
<Casey> Yep.  And foreshadows don't have to be merely objects, but can be
thoughts, past events that have occurred within the story, etc.
<Casey> Even the creation of a mood, I think, can foreshadow events to
come.
<Casey> The oldest clique is the thunderstorm preceding the murder.
<BeckyB> So you could go for the shock affect and have the murder on a
bright sunny day durring a picnic in the park.
<Casey> Yep. 
<shorty103> if a character saw or did something in one chapter, in first
POV, that foreshadow it into another chapter which made those earlier
thoughts known in, say two chapters later, that is forshadowing?
<BeckyB> yep.
<shorty103> okay, it is still a little confusing for me, but I'm learning.
lol
<Casey> Say, your character glances out the window and casually notices a
blue car parked in front of the neighbor's house.
<Casey> Or in front of her own house.
<Casey> Later, there's a robbery, and she begins to wonder if there's a
connection.
<BeckyB> And you could have it be either true or false forshoadowing.  The
car could send them on a wild goose chase, or be involved.
<BeckyB> Has to be a wild goose chase that helps the plot though.
<Casey> The kind of foreshadowing Becky's suggesting actually blends into
Suspense, which is our next device.
<Chipmonk> Like meeting another character.
<BeckyB> Oooohhh.  Suspense!!!
<Casey> Suspense builds tension and uncertainty within a reader.
<Chipmonk> duh duh   duh duh   duh duh
<Casey> Will the protagonist achieve his goal in time to make a difference?
<shorty103> I have trouble getting the third character in there.
<BeckyB> Or will he bite the dust?
<Casey> (Becky's into murder and mayhem!)
<Chipmonk> Or both?
<shorty103> Oh dear, my worst enemys
<BeckyB> And the creepy music fills the screen, as our hero walks through
the dark parking lot, occasionally looking over shoulder.
<Casey> There are specific methods for creating suspense.
<Chipmonk> M&Ms
<BeckyB> Yes, working on a fantasy murder mystery. 
<Casey> Becky's got it.
<shorty103> boy does she ever! lol
<shorty103> I've got goose bumps already
<BeckyB> If only I could get it to translate into my writing without
sounding corny. Sigh.
<Casey> Ways of creating suspense are:
<Casey> creating a situation and then delaying its resolution.
<Casey> Posing a question, then delaying its answer.
<Casey> (notice a pattern here?)
<Casey> The "ticking clock" is another device.
<BeckyB> Is it just her imagination, or is something really there, lurking
in the shadows.
<Chipmonk> When will jaws pop up and bite Quinn?
<Casey> It's 4:08, and by 5:10, the pipe where the baby's stuck will have
filled with water and drown the child
<BeckyB> And who made that sound?  A cat?  a dripping water pipe, or
something more sinister?
<BeckyB> That's scarier Casey.
<Chipmonk> It's the human liver fluke!!!
<Casey> Human liver fluke??
<Chipmonk> X-files episode.
<BeckyB> AAAAAARRRRRGGGGG!!!!!
<Casey> lol, Becky!
<BeckyB> Never heard of a human liver fluke. Just scared me. :-)
<Chipmonk> And the old cliche, will the car ever start.
<BeckyB> And will someone be in the back seat.
<Casey> Or the person waiting in the shower stall--unbeknownst to the
protagonist.
<Chipmonk> And what's at the A. bottom, b. top,. of the stairs.
<BeckyB> We got a clear shower curtain for that reason.
<Chipmonk> Hey, lets not bring Norman into this.
<Casey> Between Psycho and Steven King, we're not safe anywhere.
<shorty103> really
<BeckyB> I've never even seen it, and I need a clear shower curtain.
<Chipmonk> My favorite is still Wait Until Dark.
<Casey> Even the title's scary!
<BeckyB> Tame, but quite scary.
<shorty103> did you see the movie by Steven King, "Storm of the Century"
<Chipmonk> Blind lady chased around in complete darkness.  All you here is
the sound.
<BeckyB> Audrey Hepburn casually taking clothing out of a closet with a
dead body.
<Chipmonk> Yep.
<BeckyB> Nope, haven't seen it.
<Casey> Can anyone name other suspense-generating techniques?
<Casey> Or Whatever Happened to Baby Jane!
<shorty103> now that had me on the edge of my seat
<shorty103> or Rosemary's Baby.
<Chipmonk> Ira levin does this almost kind of suspense.
<Casey> Explain, chip.
<Chipmonk> Almost gets away, doesn't repeated several times.
<Chipmonk> Or almost gets the bad guy, but misses
<Chipmonk>  Up and down emotionally over and over.
<BeckyB> I think any of the senses picking up on something odd can add
suspense.  Sight, sound, taste, touch, smell, even a change in equilibrium.
<Casey> Yep. 
<Chipmonk> Yes, that something not quite right that you can't quite put
your finger on.
<Casey> Another technique is the "Certainty suspense."  Where something
WILL happen until the hero can prevent it.
<Chipmonk> Like Speed.
<BeckyB> The asteroid heading toward earth and earth's attempts to stop it.
<Chipmonk> And time is running out.
<shorty103> like Deep Impact, is that what you mean Becky
<Casey> Yep.
<BeckyB> Yep.  Preferred it to the one with Bruce Willis.
<Casey> There you have both the time factor (the clock ticking down) and
the faced with annihilation event.
<Casey> Another trick is "closing gaps."  The race between man and shark,
for example.  Will the man reach the shore before the shark gets dinner?
<BeckyB> Good example.
<Casey> "Hot pursuit" movies is an example.
<Chipmonk> Will he win the race and save the farm?
<Casey> Yep!
<Chipmonk> And of course the bad guys cheat.
<Chipmonk> Ben Hur.
<shorty103> or the movie, Iron Will, it is about a boy who runs a race in
Alaska to save his fathers farm.
<BeckyB> Question: In stories where you have someone who knows something
(and the reader knows it too) but can't tell or something worse will
happen. Example broke the code but can't warn the town or the enemy knows
you broke it.  Is that suspense or something else?
<Casey> that creates suspense.
<Casey> Definitely.
<BeckyB> thanks.
<Chipmonk> A good twist too.
<Casey> It creates the situation, then delays it's resolution.
<BeckyB> and a little forshadowing working its way in.  A lot of elements
intermixing.
<Casey> How will the town be warned?  Will the protag finally risk his life
to save 5,000 people?
<BeckyB> Or is it toast?
<Casey> Especially if this guy is presented as being extremely selfish,
then there's real question of his becoming noble and caring about someone
other than himself.
<Chipmonk> Heh heh, he could be the toast of the town or the town could be
toast.
<shorty103> so in writing suspense, create a situation in the first
chapter, then do a little foreshadowing within the next two, and resolve it
in the last chapter or two. Am I on the right track now?
<BeckyB> Don't forget, I'm a youngster raised in the era of "go ahead and
blow up major cities for impact.  The special effects budget isn't spent
and we need a good ending."
<Chipmonk> Plot twists and character development, in one book!
<Casey> Becky, don't ever run for president, okay?
<BeckyB> Hahaha.
<Casey> The trail of dead hamsters that leads to the White House!
<Casey> I can picture it now!
<Chipmonk> Aaaaaaaggghhhh!
<BeckyB> I couldn't be president.  I don't have even one mob connection.
And blue dresses seldom excite me.
<Chipmonk> My least favorite form of suspense is what is the monster.
<BeckyB> What do you mean Chip.
<Chipmonk> most horror novels/movies.  Something is killing or doing evil
and the point is to discover what it is.
<Chipmonk> Its always a big disappointment.
<Chipmonk> Never lives up to the suspense.
<BeckyB> I'm more into human monsters in my plot ideas.
<Casey> Rose, there isn't really a set formula of when these elements
should be brought into a story.  My personal opinion is that writing should
not all be "one way or no way."
<shorty103> I do realize that, but just a guide line
<Casey> Except that, the major problem should be introduced within the
first chapter, but other than that, writing should have some flexibility as
long as it sustains a reader's interest.
<shorty103> true
<Casey> Powerful story tellers can usually get away with things that
writing teachers and critics say are no-nos, because they CAN tell
fascinating tales.
<shorty103> it was only a thought, but everything in life has things that
break the rules no matter what  has or had happened in the past.
<BeckyB> I like stories that take some time to get into the major problem.
Solving one than a new challenge comes.  But do you lose readers by not
giving them the big problem right off the bat.
<Casey> Exactly.
<Casey> I think that you can present a minor problem first, that leads to a
much larger crisis. 
<Chipmonk> Like Dorothy killing one witch which pisses of a worse one.
<Casey> Sort of like the gust of wind that precedes the thunderstorm.
<Casey> Exactly, Chip.  Good example.
<BeckyB> a way of growing into your problems.
<Casey> Good way to put it, Becky.
<Casey> I like that.
<Chipmonk> Its also a way of foreshadowing.
<shorty103> now I have written the largest part of my story, which was a
problem for a long time, now is the task of rewriting it so it sounds like
a story, which is my next hurdle
<BeckyB> Like the movie Mulan.  Meeting her and seeing that her big problem
is pleasing the match-maker.  Once you know who she is, you get to see new
challenges.
<BeckyB> Good work rose.  I'm still in the getting it down.
<Casey> Yep. 
<shorty103> so no matter whether it's a story or life, there are many
things to over come.
<BeckyB> Julie's watching Mulan right now so it came to mind, actually I'm
now seeing that it started with the scene of the Hun's getting over the
wall.
<Chipmonk> Or twister.  You have a little tornado in which we learn about
how awful tornadoes are which foreshadows how really awful the big one will
be.
<BeckyB> Twister started with the great big tornato that sucked up Dad.
<shorty103> very true
<Chipmonk> Ah yes, which was also foreshadowing as well as character
motivation.
<Casey> And the challenge is for the female protagonist to face her past
and her fears.
<BeckyB> Have we talked about character motivation, last week I mean?
<Casey> Nope.  We haven't addressed the topic per se.  It does come up in
other discussions, tho.
<Chipmonk> Sounds like a future topic to me.
<Casey> Agreed.
<shorty103> I know the fear that I felt at first, when saying I was going
to write, but that fear has gone, and a new one has stepped in, a fear of
making the words work within what I have written.
<Casey> Because no matter what your story deals with, it's always about
people and how they handle crises--internal or external.
<BeckyB> Same fear I have Rose.
<Chipmonk> That's every writer's fear, i think.
<shorty103> but when it's late at night, no one around, one does feel like
they are the only one with that  fear.
<Casey> Fear of others' disapproval, or of not finding the right way of
expressing yourself?
<BeckyB> Well, It's frustrating to write something and then when you reread
it to doesn't work quite right, or someone else interprets it completely
wrong.
<BeckyB> Mine is more the fear of not being able to express myself, but
I'll admit, I'd rather others approve too.
<shorty103> it seem strange, I know what I want to say, but everything
comes out wrong when I write sometimes. My sentences are to long, wrong
words, and silly things like that.
<Casey> I suspect that we all want approval and acceptance, which comes
from others being able to feel and see what we're feeling and seeing by
what we write.
<Casey> But those things are correctable, Rose. 
<BeckyB> I hope they are correctable in my case.  Sometimes it just feels
that the only hope is to throw it out and begin again.
<Casey> Instead of throwing it out, have you simply tried rewriting?
Taking one paragraph and reworking your words until they work for you?
<BeckyB> Except the plot has changed by then to require not just changing a
paragraph, but the entire thing.  I'm writing when I don't know what I want
to write.
<shorty103> yes, that is true, but it that feeling you get when you reread
you own stuff, it sounds good to you , but to someone else, well, I think
you understand what I mean.  I just wish sometimes, that I could write
something that means the same thing to that person as it did to me at the
time that I wrote it
<Casey> that's a problem, Becky.
<BeckyB> But you can't expect it to mean the same thing to all readers.  We
all have different experiences and points of view.  Best to write it in a
way that each get something out of it and expect it to be different for
everyone.
<BeckyB> that is why I'm working on shorts right now until the plot of the
novel stabilizes.
<Casey> We understand clearly what we want to say, but even a single
misplaced word or poorly chosen word can drastically change your meaning
for someone else.
<shorty103> yes, I do agree with that Becky, but  it to find the
commonality in that topic what ever it is.
<BeckyB> Or at least the characters stabilize.  Pregnent, not pregnent,
magic, no magic.
<BeckyB> Or even is the main character a man or woman.
<Casey> Yep.  those are issues that need to be worked out ahead of time.
<Chipmonk> I get scared to write, like do I want to go there?
<Casey> Each one presents different consequences and problems.
<BeckyB> Can you give an example Chip?
<Casey> Yes, Chip.  Like, do I want to address highly controversial topics?
<Casey> At all?
<shorty103> as corny as it sounds, I keep seeing the same thing," write
what you know" and trying to find a commonality in that, is like trying to
find a needle in a hay stack.
<Chipmonk> I just heard an interview with Niel Simon and he said his mind
can't tell the difference between what is reality and what is his story.
<Chipmonk> He really feels the pain etc. of his characters.
<Chipmonk> Sometimes its hard knowing that if you really write it well,
you're going to have to live through it emotionally with the characters.
<BeckyB> My characters are more real to me than most people are.  You guys
are more real to me than the cashier at the store.  It's pretty normal for
those who develop imagination.
<shorty103> it's the same with my story, or at least some of it, I did feel
the pain, and the hurt, and I did cry from confusion of not knowing things
I should have known. I was not street smart at all.
<Chipmonk> Hey, I'm real!
<BeckyB> Of course in my imagination you now look just like the pictures of
you that I've seen.
<BeckyB> Yep, I interface therefore I am!!!
<Chipmonk> And do you tell your friends you talk to chipmonks?
<BeckyB> Good point Chip.  I couldn't write the scene where Rachel lives
through trying to nurse her sick daughter back to health and watches as she
slowly fades and dies.  Finally just cut it.  In my mind Julie was dieing
and there was nothing I could do to save her.
<Casey> The next device is Analogies.
<shorty103> there is one thing that I have realized tonight, I'm beginning
to come out of my shell that I have built around myself for years. I am
truely beginning to think that my words are important enough to be heard
and understood. I am me and those who don't want to listen, well I know in
my heart they are missing something very special.
<Casey> You are absolutely right in what you just said, Rose.
<Chipmonk> Important lesson Rose.
<BeckyB> Yep.  and one I'm still working on at times.
<Chipmonk> Analogies?
<Casey> Analogies are, A comparison of two things that basically are not
alike in order to show similarities.  Analogies introduce a second
dimension to an experience.
<BeckyB> What makes an analogy different from a metaphor?
<Casey> For example, The statement of fact in Henry James's, The Portrait
of a Lady was changed from:  the Countess "delivered herself of a hundred
remarks from which I offer the reader but a brief selection."   to:  the
Countess "began to talk very much as if, seated brush in hand before an
easel, she were applying a series of considered touches to a composition of
figures already sketched in."
<Chipmonk> If nothing else, writing is therapeutic.
<Casey> See how the changes likens the Countess to an artist?
<BeckyB> yep
<Casey> Which also follows the image presented by the Title of James's
story.
<shorty103> I am looking at what you wrote Casey, I didn't see, but now I
do, Confused, but I see it.
<BeckyB> This is something I seldom have successfully been able to put in.
I think it doesn't often make it into a first draft and must be carefully
added during polishing. 
<Casey> As I explained last meeting, these techniques are used in classical
literature, but can be applied to any writing.
<Casey> And yes, Becky, these ARE techniques used in rewriting and editing.
<BeckyB> I like classical literature.  It has so many means on many levels
that it is worth reading again and again.
<Casey> Drafts should be just that:  getting the story on paper, where you
can see where flaws of logic require changes.  The final version is where
these techniques and changes are applied.
<Casey> Allusion is the reference to people, places, historical events,
mythic events, biblical or other literary references, or references to
elements presented earlier in your story.
<Casey> Allusion, like symbolism (which I will address next) must be used
carefully, else your reader may not understand the reference.
<Casey> You don't want to allude to something esoteric unless it is
revealed full-blown in the end as a significant plot twist.
<BeckyB> Also if you are alluding to something Biblical, many readers won't
have that in their background.
<Chipmonk> Or Shakespeare anymore.
<Casey> My favorite allusion is still C.D. Ectherling's passage where Steve
is sitting at the dining room table after dinner, his last night home,
looking at a picture of the Last Supper.
<BeckyB> you might have to explain a historical event in order to allude to
it.
<BeckyB> Good one.
<Casey> There's an ominousness to that scene that is slowly revealed as the
story progresses.
<Chipmonk> He sees himself as Judas.
<Casey> And the allusion is well-known enough that even non-Christians
can't miss it.
<BeckyB> Wow.
<shorty103> Wow! is right Becky.
<Casey> Symbolism, the same way, should reference something well-known.
<shorty103> this reminds me of the story of Moses
<Casey> Symbolism are objects that represent something greater than the
literal object.
<Casey> Like, a rose is the symbol of true love.
<Casey> Can you name other symbols?
<BeckyB> So that wax paper symbolizes sneaking christmas chocolates might
not work unless I make it well know earlier in the story.
<Casey> Yep.
<shorty103> and a white rose is the symbol of everlasting love, is what I
have heard.
<Casey> I've never heard that one, Becky!
<BeckyB> Of course not, it is from my memory of early christmases.
<Casey> That's interesting, Rose, because I grew up understanding that a
white rose was worn at Eastertime to represent a loved one who had died.
<BeckyB> And I thought it was friendship.
<Chipmonk> Weather is often symbolic of emotions.
<shorty103> this is what I have heard, just like a yellow rose or flower is
a symbol of friendship
<Chipmonk> I thought it was purity.
<Chipmonk> White roses that is.
<Casey> The color white is universally used to represent purity.
<BeckyB> The problem with using weather is that it is also misunderstood.
To me a light rain shows happy contemplation and a feeling of personal
space.  To someone else any rain is like tears.
<Chipmonk> Snakes, knives, swords, nails, cucumbers....
<Casey> I think we're demonstrating admirably well how tricky symbols are
if used in a story.
<BeckyB> Not neccisarily Casey.  I've seen it to represent chaos in quite a
few stories.
<Chipmonk> I'm getting freudian.
<Casey> I'm still stuck on the cucumber, but don't want to know.
<BeckyB> The color white I mean.  And yes, it gets very trickly.
<Chipmonk> In some Asian countries white is a symbol of death instead of
black.
<BeckyB> cucumbers represent youthful fears.  Didn't you know that?  Or is
it broccoli . . .
<Casey> The letter "A" is used as "adulterer" when referring to The Scarlet
Letter, but also is a school grade.
<Chipmonk> All those things I mention are freudian phallic symbols.
<Casey> (Almost everything can be twisted into a phallic symbol!)
<BeckyB> Yes, and we all have cucumber envy, right?
<Casey> LOL, Becky!!!
<Chipmonk> There is a book called why cucumbers are better than men.
<shorty103> we are all taught that different colors mean different things,
and that symbols of any kind should show a meaning within the story we each
write as we understand it.
<BeckyB> LOL, Chip.
<Casey> I think it's become clear, tho, that any symbolism we use in our
stories should somehow be "explained" when they're used.  Either by context
that makes the meaning obvious, or by omniscient explanation.
<BeckyB> I think that we just have to be very careful to put in several
clues to show what we are really trying to show.  If you have to have a Phd
to figure out what is meant, then it's time to express yourself better.
<BeckyB> Unless you are writing for Phd's.
<Chipmonk> I think the first time you use a symbol there should be some
kind of contextual explanation.  After that the symbol becomes a sort of
shorthand.
<Chipmonk> Or, by repetition the reader learns the meaning of the symbol.
<Casey> You can even create your own symbolism.  Say, have a foreign coin
be your protagonist's good luck piece, which he only fingers or pulls out
when he's nervous.
<Chipmonk> Like rabbits in of Mice and Men.
<Casey> Yep.  Repetition is a good way to convey importance or meaning to
an object or action.
<shorty103> yes, that does make a lot of sense.
<Casey> Contrast is a nifty way of conveying information, too.
<Casey> Contrast:  between characters.
<Casey> Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson are probably the most famous pair.
<BeckyB> Jekel and Hyde.
<Casey> Yep.
<Casey> Jim and Huckleberry Finn.
<shorty103> Bonnie and Clyde
<Chipmonk> Laurel and Hardy.
<Casey> These contrasting characters show what?
<Casey> Or do what for a story?
<BeckyB> In a lot of cases they seem to show how different people will
react to the same situation.  So we can see and relate with them on how we
would also react.
<shorty103> Abbett and Costello, and they show at two different
personalities can understand one another
<Casey> With Jim and Huck, not only is there showing the differences in age
(young and older) but also the differences between slavery and freemen.
<BeckyB> Sometimes it is used to increase reader appeal.  If you don't like
one type of hero, you have 5 types to chose from.  But I absolutely hate
the - 5 herose out to save the world, 1 black, 1woman, one handicaped, 1
fat, 1 old.
<Casey> Agree, Becky!
<Casey> That's like trying to please everyone at once, and alienating
everyone in the process.
<Casey> Contrasts can bring into a story much more information than is
possible with a single protagonist.
<shorty103> they have a commonality, friendship, but yet they see things in
a different light, sometimes because of age, race, and so on
<Casey> In Holmes and Watson, Watson is considered the "foil,", the
character that helps to show off the skills of the protagonist (Holmes).
In their conversations, information and details and history can be brought
out.
<BeckyB> In one story I am working on, the first half of the book has 2
protagonists who are working for a common goal.  Then after that goal is
acheived, they disagree on the next step and become enemies.  both with
flawed points of veiw but for their own reasons.
<Chipmonk> They point out each others traits by contrast and give each
other someone to argue with.
<Casey> Exactly, Chip.
<Casey> Contrasts can be made between the young and old, between ways of
life, between the past and present, between cultures, and between settings.
<Chipmonk> The bold one and the cautious one.
<Casey> The smart one and the less intelligent.
<Casey> Or leader and followers.
<Chipmonk> Hero and side kick.
<Chipmonk> I always like sidekicks better than heroes.
<shorty103> me too!
<Casey> A lot of times, the sidekicks are more fun and get away with a lot
more than the hero can.
<Chipmonk> Heroes tend to be dull.
<Casey> And "sidekicks" can be little kids trying to outsmart their
parents.
<BeckyB> It is making me think of what you were saying about not being sure
if you want to go there.  In the story I have one character for slavery for
good reasons and one against it for good reasons.  I picked something that
most people today agreed on, but if I were to pick the abortion issue, the
message of understanding reasons and learning to change would never get
across.
<BeckyB> sidekicks get a lot of the comic relief.
<Chipmonk> r2d2 and 3cp0 are much more interesting than Luke.
<shorty103> the sidekicks remind me of the Appledumpling gang, comedy.
<Chipmonk> Barney Fife.
<Casey> the reasons would reach some people, Becky
<Casey> The topic of abortion would require a lot of research, and solid
reasoning.  It would be (is) much harder to write about than less
controversial subjects, that's for sure.
<BeckyB> Yes, but in that case I am trying to stress the point of working
out a winning situation for all, and if I pick something that people are
regularly spending time thinking about their point of veiw, they would get
caught on the I agree with this, or I disagree, not I understand and they
need to work it out.
<Casey> But think of the impact you could make if you COULD find a solid
point of agreement.  (I can't think of one, but the what if remains.)
<BeckyB> True, but the best I've been able to come up with on that issue is
a compromise that makes no one happy.
<Casey> Maybe that is the moral point of that story then, Becky.
<BeckyB> Not of that story, but the point of another.
<BeckyB> My goodness, it almost sounds like I actually know what I want in
that novel!!!
<Casey> That this issue will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction,
but they should agree at least not to murder each other over it.
<BeckyB> That I definately agree on.  And yes, I'm extremely anti.
<Casey> using murder to prevent murder?  Is there sense in that?  (Even
includes the death penalty)
<Casey> Which brings up Irony.
<BeckyB> See and one point is yes, there is. 
<Casey> Yep.  I know the arguments.
<BeckyB> Irony is one of the strongest points in a story.  But you must be
careful not to bash the readers brains in with it.
<Casey> Verbal irony:  "Nobody can call *me* a bigot, but don't you think
blacks ought to stay in their place?"
<Chipmonk> O Henry is not in style.
<Casey> Dramatic irony (what a character intends to do versus what he
does).  "Wanting to show the thirsty old black man that not all whites are
bigots, he took him six blocks down the street to where there was a For
Colored only water fountain."
<BeckyB> "I've got nothing against gay people, but I just think they all
should be locked in a building and burned."
<Chipmonk> I like that water fountain one.
<BeckyB> Actual quote my husband told me someone said at work.
<BeckyB> I like the fountain one too.
<Casey>  Or even, "People should have the right to chose their sexual
preferences, but gays should be locked up."
<Casey> Bizarre, isn't it Becky?
<BeckyB> Bizarre that people say 2 opposites.  they should say what they
really mean.  Not always easy.
<shorty103> I, myself have nothing against anyone, as long as they respect
me for my choices
<Casey> That's the irony, Rose.  That the person making such statements
would not ever tolerate such statements being made against them, yet think
their position is justified.
<BeckyB> I'm in conflict over a lot of issues.  I don't want to stop others
from exercising their free will, but I don't want others introducing my
little impressionable kids to things they aren't ready for.
<Casey> "Irony is a major device in literary fiction . . . as
sentimentality is a major device and source of pleasure in commerical
fiction.  Often, serious writers use irony to control sentimentality.  The
writer who wants to convey the complexity of human behavior may use the
device of irony because it requires of the reader an ability to see an
event through a double perspective:  what is literally happening and how
the writer intends that happening to be seen differently." P. 210, David
Madden, Revising Fiction:  A Handbook for Writers, NY:  Penguin Books,
1988.
<Chipmonk> True irony:  The guy who invented blood transfusions died
because he didn't get one.
<BeckyB> I try, but I think we all have our biases and preferances.  The
older I get, the less tolerant I become because of the ways I've been
burned and the things I'd rather avoid.
<Casey> That is ironic!  Sad.
<Chipmonk> He was black and they wouldn't let him in the hospital.
<BeckyB> Wow, that is irony.
<shorty103> but it's strange, my sons father, the oldest one, he is gay,
and  abuser, but  I got out of the situation, and as far as he as a person,
well I don't think to highly of him, I just don't want his kind around me,
as they bring me down spiritually and emotionaly.
<Casey> Even with all I've been through, I don't make sweeping judgments
based on race or profession or whatever.  There are good and bad people in
every facet of society, whatever it is.
<shorty103> that is very true Casey
<Chipmonk> How about a character who wants to stop killing so he invents a
weapon that is better than the enemies' weapons and somehow ends up getting
killed by it.
<Casey> While I see the irony, the logic of stopping killing by making
larger weapons turns me off.
<Casey> There's poetic justice there as well.
<BeckyB> So you learn to avoid certain situations.  I'm always very careful
with trying to view any black man I meet as a new person that I don't know
instead of lumping him into the same catagory as the guy who threatened to
kill me for evicting him.  He owed over $1000 in unpaid rent and said I was
evicting him because "that's what you get when you deal with white people."
<Chipmonk> That's the point of the irony, to show how stupid that was.
<BeckyB> There may not be logic in the bigger weapons, but historically it
has worked, that's what keeps it going.
<Chipmonk> Actually, I think what's worked is they've gotten to the point
where they're just too expenxive.
<BeckyB> Good point Chip.
<Casey> Which seems a good opening for presenting Satire and humor.
<Chipmonk> Aha!
<Casey> this is Chip's area much more than mine, so I'll just present the
clinical aspects and Chip can fill in what I'm missing.
<Casey> "The classic examples of satire adhere to this description:
satirical fiction ridicules mankind generally or an actual person, group,
class, nation, system of thought, movement in art, or social, political, or
religious institution through a serious moral vision in a tone either of
gentle amusement and delight or of a ferocious moral indignation, the aim
of which is to expose, to diminish, or to destroy the target so that the
reader gains insight into specific excesses, follies, and vices . . .
Satirists are often basically conservative; some would restore the original
vitality of withering institutions.  In the greatest satire, as in great
tragedy, the target and the issue must have stature. . . Great satire
destroys a false vision of life as it suggests a better one." 
<BeckyB> Anyone ever read "A Modest Proposal"?
<Chipmonk> Oh yes!  Great Satire!!
<Casey> No, I haven't, Becky.
<BeckyB> It is common required reading when you talk about satire in
school.  An Irish man suggests that to solve the problem of overpopulation
and starvation during the last potato famine, that excess babies should be
eaten.  Raised for food.
<Casey> Ewwww!
<Chipmonk> And some people thought Swift actually meant it.
<Casey> Gulliver's Travels is one of the best known satirical novels.
<shorty103> your right about that Casey, I could not see myself doing that
no matter how hungry I was.
<BeckyB> It would solve the problems of beating wives to make them
miscarry, provide extra food during the famine, extra cash if you sell the
meat.  What could be a better solution.
<Chipmonk> It was actually commentary on how the English landowners treated
the Irish peasants.
<BeckyB> Gullivers Travels is a good one.
<Chipmonk> You treat them like cattle might as well eat them.
<shorty103> yes, I like that movie.
<Casey> Swift was a master.
<Chipmonk> It's a more interesting book, Rose.
<BeckyB> Worse than cattle was the point.
<Casey> Candide, Don Quixote, and Catch-22 are some of the other (few)
great satirical novels.
<Chipmonk> It isn't a children's book at all, it's social political satire.
<Chipmonk> I loved Candide.
<shorty103> I hardly read, I know I should, but I just can't get into most
books. How-to books sometimes interest me, but not very often
<BeckyB> I remember a poem called "The rape of the lock".  It is a satire
about how an admirer cuts a piece of hair from the girl he loves and the
scandel it causes.
<Casey> "Behind good satire there is a deadly serious moral vision; behind
quality humor there is a very tough, complex mind."
<Chipmonk> The Mouse that Roared.
<Casey> That's one I've never read.
<BeckyB> Rose, I mostly only read books that have been recommended to me.
That way you have less to wade through.  Think about what books you have
enjoyed and tell some of the group members and I'll bet you will get a
whole list of great reading.
<BeckyB> What's the one on Russia?  I keep thinking "Animal Farm", but I'm
not sure if that's the right title.
<Chipmonk> That is.
<BeckyB> So we have a lot of examples, BUT how to write it?
<Casey> By reading, you develop feel for how scenes can be described, you
can develop a feel for grammar--all sorts of things.
<Chipmonk> Two tricks to satire are exaggeration or down playing.
<Casey> HUMOR is the comic depiction of human foibles.  It differs from
satire in that the laughter is indulgent and the attitude is compassionate
and tolerant.  (In satire, the laughter is malicious and the attitude is
critical and intolerant.)  Both draw upon some of the same devices to get
their effects:  reversal and surprise; understatement or exaggeration;
contrast; irony; implication.
<Casey> (Chip is so smart!)
<Chipmonk> Or viewing events through the eyes of an innocent fool who
accepts the events as good.
<BeckyB> I'll admit, I'm more partial to Humor than satire.
<Casey> There are so few good satirists and humorists, and a huge interest
in humor.  Anyone who can do it well has a market.
<Chipmonk> I must not do it well.
<Casey> I can't do it at all.  Not write it, anyway.
<Chipmonk> Peoples senses of humor are so varied.
<BeckyB> Or not marketing it right.
<BeckyB> That is the trouble having both the right stuff at the right place
at the right time.
<Casey> Rex wrote an interesting article on writing humor that taught me
things I didn't know.  It was published in one of our newsletters quite
some time ago.
<Chipmonk> Well, when you start poking fun at other peoples sacred cows....
<shorty103> I just can't understand the English in the UK humor, it's so
dry, the only comedian that really made me laugh is  Red Skelton
<Casey> Chip, I like your sense of humor, but then I'm a little warped
myself.
<Chipmonk> Yes, that was a good article.
<BeckyB> Yep, Satire is a big risk. And humor is subjective.
<BeckyB> And I can't stand Red Skelton, but love most English humor.
<Chipmonk> I love british humor.  I'm a big Monty Python fan.
<Casey> I love the British sense of humor, but then, I lived there for a
year.  Jesus Christ Superstar's British version was much funnier and the
humor much more subtle than the American version I saw in Richmond.
<shorty103> I guess I'm a little boring then, because I  just don't get it,
British humor that is.
<BeckyB> No, just different.  Face value, remember.
<shorty103> understood
<BeckyB> If someone else likes something and I don't, it doesn't make
either of us wrong.  (usually)
<Casey> Some types of humor are lampoon, burlesque, travesty, parody,
mockery, black humor, farce.  They are not, in and of themselves satire,
but may be employed as transient devices of satire. 
<Casey> When humor is used as an incidental device in an otherwise serious
novel, ask yourself whether it works where it appears or whether it
disrupts a different mood.  No matter how witty or funny a line or passage
is in isolation, it must work in context.
<shorty103> what is satire? I  do not understand!
<Casey> For example,  From The Portrait of a Lady by Henry James, "Lily
knew nothing about Boston; her imagination was confined within the limits
of Manhattan" was revised to:  "Lily knew nothing about Boston; her
imagination was all bounded on the east by Madison Avenue."
<Chipmonk> The Brittish can be so conservative and hold back their
emotions, so they do the silliest things in their skits always with someone
not responding to it because that's how you are supposed to be.  So they
are making fun of their national characteristics.
<Casey> Satire is very close to irony.  You might say, it's humorous irony.
<shorty103> still a little confused, but I will learn.
<BeckyB> It can be saying the opposite point of veiw to show its flaws.
Playing Devils Advocate.
<Casey> We think that our current prison system deters crime, but it
doesn't.
<Chipmonk> Okay, Rose, it's like making fun of the stupid things
politicians do.  Like Clinton jokes.
<shorty103> okay, beginning to understand.
<Casey> What if I wrote a book applauding our criminal justice
system--showing how wonderful it is, when in fact what I'm showing is how
devastatingly awful the whole system is?  That's satire.
<shorty103> okay
<Chipmonk> Now imagine doing a story where everyone did what Clinton did,
just because the president did it, it became the in thing and cigar sales
sky rocketed.
<Chipmonk> That would be satire.
<shorty103> Oh, okay, this head of mine will get it someday, but for now,
well,
<Casey> It's not an easy concept to grasp, Rose.  Nor is it easy to write.

<shorty103> I see that, but someday I'll understand, and then it will be my
turn to try to explain to someone else
<Casey> Charged Image is the next device.
<Chipmonk> That's a new one?
<Casey> It's "the controlling, dominant image-nucleus in a story" that
discharges its potency gradually as the reader moves from scene to scene or
chapter to chapter. 
<BeckyB> Translation?
<Casey> Not really.  I interpret it as mood.
<Casey> If you've read Something Wicked This Way Comes, that's an excellent
example of charged image.
<Casey> The opening scene is of a lightening rod salesman coming to town
ahead of a storm, and that image of dark, imminent danger follows
throughout the story.
<Chipmonk> Like the tatooed man, Casey?
<Casey> Yes!
<Chipmonk> Mr. Dark.
<Chipmonk> Bradbury had a thing about tatoos
<Casey> The overriding image crops up in descriptions over and over again.
<BeckyB> I think I know what you mean.  I can't remember the name of the
book, but I read one where the entire book was based arround the mother's
coffin.  I think this applies.
<Chipmonk> Captain ahab is similar.
<Casey> It is a device that isn't appropriate or desirable in every kind of
story, but when it's used, it can add coherence and unity to the story's
chapters.
<Casey> yes, Becky, that's an example of this device.
<Casey> The image can be of the coffin, or a particular color (as in the
Great Gatsby--the green light at the end of Daisy's pier), etc.
<Chipmonk> Rabbits.
<Chipmonk> Boo Radley
<Casey> usually the image is important for what it represents for the
protagonist.  It can be seen as lucky (such as the number 7), or can
represent a lost father, or abandonment, or marital love.
<Casey> It can also be used as a contrast to something else happening in
the story.
<Chipmonk> The glass managerie.
<Casey> Good examples, Chip.
<Chipmonk> Thanks.
<Casey> Symbolism can be tied into the overall image device, as an object
taking on the properties of the image--as in the coffin Becky gave.
<BeckyB> It was an unusual use of a coffin, they showed her no respect in
life and used her, then in death they used the excuse to bury her where she
had been from as an excuse to go to town.
<Casey> It's interesting, because I used an example of a coffin last week.
<BeckyB> Don't have a lot of knowledge on this aspect so I have been quiet
to avoid showing that lack.
<Chipmonk> Yes, the piano and the coffin.
<BeckyB> Death is hard to talk about so many writers use the symbolism of
the coffin or the grave.
<Casey> Those things also stir up a lot a emotion in each of us.
<Casey> Repetition, juxtaposition, and flashbacks are the 3 devices I have
left.
<Chipmonk> Maybe you should save flashbacks for when Rose is here.
<Casey> Okay.  That's the one that could elicit the most discussion anyway.
<BeckyB> The only thing I can think of for juxtaposition is "the prince and
the pauper".  Is that the idea?
<Casey> Actually, not quite. 
<Casey> Juxtaposition is The placing of two common elements side by side to
create a special effect.  (In cinema, this technique is called montage:
where two strips of film are run simultaneously, one "atop" the other.)
<BeckyB> Now I'm lost.
<Casey> In writing, the same thing occurs.  I found a great example that
shows it better than I can explain it.
<Casey>  From Wright Morris "The Ram in the Thicket:"  "That gun had been a
mistake--he began to shave himself in tepid, lukewarm water rather than let
it run hot, which would bang the pipes and wake Mother up.  That gun had
been a mistake--when the telegram came that the boy had been killed Mother
hadn't said a word, but she made it clear whose fault it was.  There was
never any doubt, as to just whose fault it was."
<BeckyB> The Gun intermixed with the common place shaving.
<Casey> Not only that, but he's in hot water--literally and figuratively.
<Casey> That's why I like this quote.
<BeckyB> No, he's in lukewarm water.  She controls everything.
<Casey> He'll be in hot water if the banging pipes wake Mother.
<BeckyB> Without saying a word she controls his thoughts and actions.  She
doesn't have to talk and he believes it's his fault.  Everything he does is
based on her wants.
<Casey> You're right, tho.  Shaving juxtaposed over the gun issue.
<Casey> either act/thought alone would not have as much impact as combining
the two do.  The reader gets a far greater impression and more information
by the two combined than by one or the other alone.
<BeckyB> That's very true.
<Chipmonk> Yup.
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