CHAT ARCHIVE - 4-17-99, Suspense

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Apr 18 00:32:40 1999

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<Casey> Frankay isn't Frankay. Is this Steph?
<Chipmonk> The Frankay impersonator!
<Casey> Hello, Bookpal.
<Bookpal> Hello everyone
<Spinner> clue me. What's about over?
<Bookpal> A librarians conference I am in charge of - pacific northwest
<Bookpal> I'm going to take Zach's book Man-Like and see if I can push
it
<Spinner> Gee, want to take some floppy disks?
<Chipmonk> Cool! You're allowed to do that!?
<Bookpal> yep, we have lots of vendors coming - selling their wares
<Casey> Wow! Talk about promotional opportunities . . . The things we
learn here.
<Chipmonk> If we only had flyers (DUCK!)
<Spinner> Who's frankay? i've got a big space for him/her and no
person.
<Casey> She's one of our youth members, but tonight Frankay is really
Steph, her sister, who's taping tonight's session for Fran.
<Casey> Meanwhile, I guess I better earn my cookies.
<Spinner> Suspense, huh?
<Casey> See how I cleverly kept you all in suspense as to the topic of
tonight's discussion?
<Spinner> hehe
<Casey> There are a wide variety of techniques used to create suspense
in a story.
<Casey> Thwarting the protagonist's success is one.
<Casey> delaying goal attainment.
<Casey> creating roadblocks.
<Casey> Anyone care to name others?
<Spinner> having the characters decide to go that-a-way and not knowing
what they're up to until you write it?
<Bookpal> putting the protagonist in danger?
<Casey> Or having the reader know that that-a-way is the wrong way to go
but the protag doesn't know it.
<Bookpal> Yes, that really works - like reading and saying out loud -
No!
<Chipmonk> Unavoidable disaster or dead that must be gotten out of
somehow since there's two hundred more pages to go.
<Casey> lol, Chip! You have such a way with words.
<Bookpal> lol
<Chipmonk> can't spell worth diddly tho.
<Spinner> Yes, I like it when the heroes think their way out of a
situation when i have NO idea how they're going to do it.
<Casey> Chip's example is called the "certainty suspense."
<Casey> Right on, spinner.
<Chipmonk> Oh? There's a name for it?
<Casey> Yep. There is an event that's going to happen and the protag
has to figure a way around it.
<Bookpal> like defusing a bomb?
<Casey> Yep.
<Casey> Defusing a bomb also uses the "ticking clock" tactic.
<Casey> Where in 1 hour, 14 minutes and 28 seconds something awful will
happen.
<Chipmonk> A how done it instead of a who done it?
<Bookpal> yes, I'm using that in one thing I am working on
<Bookpal> it includes the part I had you read - chains
<Casey> Or the old, a meteor is headed straight for earth and there's no
way to stop it!
<Casey> I love chains!
<Chipmonk> REALLY!!!
<Bookpal> that works
<Spinner> I really don't... plan anything in a book. I don't think
about suspense or any other 'plot elements'. they just... happen. of
course, they also start out with a biiiiig problem.
<Bookpal> yep, that one
<Casey> The big-problem-beginning automatically creates interest and
tensions, which in turn create suspense.
<Bookpal> sure does
<Spinner> it works. ;)
<Casey> WILL the protag find a way out of this mess? How will he do it?
<Casey> Is there anyone who can help him?
<Casey> Why did he piss off that guy pages back who was the only one
who could have helped him?
<Bookpal> lol
<Casey> That's the uncertainty suspense.
<Casey> Not knowing what will happen or how the big problem will be
resolved.
<Chipmonk> That's a good point, Casey, about pissing someone off
pages back.
<Bookpal> this works in some of the "innocent bystander" protags I've
read
<Spinner> I don't know how much suspense my books actually have. I've
never even thought about it. Of course ten books to assure they EXIST
probably qualifies.
<Chipmonk> Have to not throw things in suddenly that lead to the
solution--must foreshadow and such.
<Bookpal> no one to help - so they have to do it
<Bookpal> yes, Chip to make it believable
<Chipmonk> Without giving the solution away.
<Spinner> My protags are usually in deep doodoo on the first page.
<Casey> Or having someone witness an event but refuse to come forward
and testify for fear of life, limb, or home.
<Bookpal> yep
<Casey> Yeah, it doesn't work when the cornered protag suddenly pulls a
heat seeking missile out of her bra and blows the bad guys away when we
didn't know she carried a heat seeking missile.
<Spinner> LOL
<Casey> Bad form, that.
<Bookpal> true - loses me every time I read that :-)
<Casey> lol, BP!
<Chipmonk> Wondered why she bulged funny.
<Bookpal> lol
<Spinner> Yeah, my pet peeve in fantasy is "It's magick!" to get the
protag out of the corner the writer got into.
<Casey> She should use it to play fetch with the dog a couple of times
before it becomes a weapon.
<Bookpal> that would work
<Spinner> LOL. Yeah
<Bookpal> I agree, Spinner
<Casey> Exactly.
<Chipmonk> Magic needs rules too.
<Bookpal> When that has happened I go back and read - thinking I missed
something - then I'm pissed
<Casey> And the stricter the rules, the greater tension is created.
<Spinner> I can handle it if it has internal logic, but NOT as an excuse
when you just don't want to rewrite the story to make sense. grrrr
<Casey> Will the protag be able to make that personal sacrifice to save
(his skin) (his prince's skin) (the world)
<Chipmonk> Or a character we've never seen shows up to save the day.
<Spinner> Mary Jane.
<Bookpal> that one is BAD, Chip - but you see it happen
<Casey> Or even one who's made a 2 paragraph entrance 300 pages back
ends up saving the day. that's just as bad.
<Bookpal> The protag needs a reason to do that, Casey - more than his
job
<Chipmonk> I suppose it would be okay as an intro to a character in a
minor mishap, but not the main plot.
<Spinner> Well, my characters always have a reason. they're usually
REAL pissed. :)
<Casey> Exactly, Bookpal. The never to be underestimated motivation
(personal motivation) thing.
<Chipmonk> But being pissed, they might have several options. Why do
they take the one they do?
<Casey> And being pissed does wear off.
<Spinner> Responsibility and idealism in my books.
<Spinner> Not if the reason your pissed is an abusive society headed for
self destruction and you're fresh meat for the grinder.
<Chipmonk> I mean, you can beat someone up, blow their head off, turn
them in, or do something mean and twisted. What makes them choose one
over the other?
<Casey> When the heat of the moment's worn off, they still need a reason
to continue or they'll simply want to turn around and go home where they
can eat chocolates.
<Casey> That's a tad bit more than "pissed" alone, Spinner!
<Bookpal> lol
<Spinner> i said REAL pissed.
<Bookpal> rofl
<Chipmonk> And what makes that person save the day instead of being a
whining coward like everyone else?
<Bookpal> you have to give them a good reason
<Spinner> responsibility, ethics and ideals. they CAN do it, so they
choose to do it.
<Casey> I have responsibility, ethics and ideals, but not to the point
that I'm willing to hang around when there's live gunfire happening.
<Casey> For me to hang in there, my son's life had better be on the
line.
<Spinner> I write mashals, judges... prostitutes ;)
<Casey> Or my husband's.
<Chipmonk> Well, there's always being in the line of fire and having no
choice but fight or die.
<Spinner> well, in my books, everyone's life is on the line.
<Casey> Yep.
<Chipmonk> Then you can't go home and eat those yummy choklits.
<Spinner> yeah, that's the one.
<Casey> And the motivation of saving your buddy's life because his life
increases your likelihood of longevity works, too.
<Spinner> My characters save anyone they can, but the 'buddy' is deeply
loved as well.
<Casey> Love is a power motivator. We all can understand that.
<Casey> Powerful
<Chipmonk> Uh, and then there's because it's their job--as in police or
soldiers etc.
<Casey> Another suspense technique not yet discussed is the "closing
gaps" trick.
<Chipmonk> ?
<Casey> The guy's been thrown overboard and the shark is coming after
him and it's race to the beach or be eaten.
<Casey> Will the shark get supper or the man escape?
<Spinner> I liked power motivator. I think it describes what I do well.
I don't write 'ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances.' It's
pure heroic fantasy, just in an SF setting.
<Spinner> that one I do.
<Chipmonk> Shark gets a snack and most of the man escapes?
<Casey> Did you have supper already, Chip?
<Bookpal> Hemingway's Old Man in the Sea was an example without bullets,
missles, etc
<Chipmonk> Yeah, but I'm still hungry:(
<Casey> I figured that out.
<Bookpal> lol
<Casey> Okay, we've dumped this guy into the middle of the worst week
he's ever had.
<Casey> Now, how do we control the suspense so we don't accidentally get
him killed?
<Bookpal> solve a problem, create a new one?
<Chipmonk> solve in stages?
<Casey> Those work.
<Spinner> We say "you want to live through this, you better think fast."
and see what they come up with?
<Casey> It works, too, to decrease, even temporarily, the perceived
consequences of his actions.
<Casey> Or the severity of consequences.
<Casey> (Didn't I say the same thing twice? I knew I was tired!)
<Chipmonk> My pet peeve is the protag getting beat to a bloody pulp and
he keeps on ticking like a timex.
<Bookpal> same here
<Bookpal> especially in movies
<Casey> Or is fully recovered half an hour later! Not an ache in his
whole body!
<Spinner> LOL, yeah. there's some real sturdy 'ordinary people' in some
books.
<Chipmonk> Or recovers over night or is able to make love with broken
ribs.
<Bookpal> when you know it would "kill" us
<Spinner> Now I have done that one, but Dutch is NOT ordinary.
<Casey> yeah, some people don't know when to stop.
<Chipmonk> Well, as long as there's a reasonable explanation or you're
writing satire.
<Bookpal> like cartoons - a hundred things can smash you, but you jump
up and keep going -
<Chipmonk> Lol. Bookie!
<Bookpal> you or a character, Spinner :-)
<Spinner> heehee
<Bookpal> lol
<Casey> The author can also control the quality of the consequences.
For example, he can fall in a pond and drown, or be dowsed with toxic
waste, or fall in a vat of acid.
<Chipmonk> She did it with Dutch when he had broken ribs?
<Bookpal> lol
<Chipmonk> Casey, that sounds like highlander, as long as he doesn't get
his head cut off, anything goes.
<Spinner> Actually, he'd been in fifteen battles by then, but we are
talking about dutch and Maggie did tell him he was impossible.
<Casey> I've never seen Highlander, tho I know someone who's a diehard
fan.
<Bookpal> point, Chip
<Bookpal> but you know he has to lose his head - does that make a
difference - who is going to chop it off?
<Chipmonk> It's books or comic books originally, I think.
<Casey> If he only falls in water, that's either okay if it's summer or
life-threatening if its - degrees out.
<Casey> Even in warm weather if the water is snow run-off, hypothermia
is life-threatening.
<Chipmonk> Or he thinks no biggie, but doesn't know about the falls but
the reader does.
<Casey> Different degrees of danger. Slow death or speedy.
<Casey> Life threatening or a big nuisance.
<Chipmonk> Or a blessing in disquise.
<Casey> Yep.
<Bookpal> it is like the old Saturday John Wayne movies - you knew but
he didn't - everyone shouted warnings (in the theatre)
<Casey> Another trick is to have the reader care about the character, or
be pissed at the character and not care if he's robbed or not.
<Chipmonk> Or, Don't go in there! Scary music is playing!
<Spinner> LOL yep.
<Bookpal> right on!
<Casey> Yeah, love the scary music as forewarning.
<Casey> You know something's going to happen then.
<Chipmonk> There's an idea for a book--a world with dramatic
underscoring.
<Bookpal> The only time I lock my doors is when I am in the shower -
thanks to Hitchcock!
<Spinner> LOL
<Casey> Are there writing clues, just like the scary music clue, that
are recognizable in stories?
<Bookpal> yes
<Chipmonk> Good question.
<Chipmonk> Changes in pace.
<Casey> Do you know some, Bookpal?
<Bookpal> the hair on the back of the neck?
<Casey> And feeling like you're being watched?
<Spinner> How about that, I have used one.
<Bookpal> not off hand - but they exist
<Bookpal> watched - feelings, yes
<Bookpal> sets the reader up
<Casey> I hadn't considered that aspect of this topic, so I'm thinking
hard too, with a defunct brain.
<Chipmonk> Changes in the writing--sentence length and such.
<Bookpal> Doug Clegg used extremely Short Chapters - one even one
paragraph - boy did it work in Bad Karma - readers still mention it to
me
<Casey> Yes, Chip. Shorter sentences that pick up the pace.
<Chipmonk> Or when everything is going too well, you know something is
going to happen.
<Bookpal> like in real life
<Spinner> It better or it will be a dull story.
<Chipmonk> Yeah.
<Bookpal> lol
<Bookpal> Dean Koontz did a good job of this stuff in Intensity
<Spinner> I have to admit most of the books I read these days bore me.
<Spinner> Haven't read that one.
<Bookpal> first book that made me want to shout out warnings
<Chipmonk> I usually don't like to use me as an example but, here's one.
<Chipmonk> In cave, which is multiple POV, I switch POV faster and
faster until its like a tennis match.
<Casey> And that effect can only be achieved when the reader knows
things the protag doesn't.
<Chipmonk> Cave? Scav!
<Spinner> cool!
<Casey> Good technique, Chip!
<Bookpal> It worked
<Chipmonk> Thanks. Of course in this case its a battle of minds.
<Bookpal> Speaking of Scav - I only read what was on the site about this
time last year - did you expand it?
<Casey> There are 2 Scav's: the short story and the novel.
<Spinner> that's the whole point, isn't it? If it works it can't be
wrong. if it doesn't work, it can't be right, even if it's correct
technique.
<Bookpal> ooooh - I just got to read the ss
<Casey> Sometimes a mental battle can be more tense than a physical one.
<Bookpal> good point, Spinner
<Chipmonk> No, unfortunately I have lost some of it and don't have
access to a scanner right now. I have too much to do to type the whole
book over right now.
<Casey> Exactly, Spinner.
<Bookpal> Sheeeet!
<Bookpal> I mean about Scav
<Spinner> I thiUh, huh, HATING to transcribe is why i bought Dragon
dictate. Works well and wasn't expensive.
<Chipmonk> I like mental battles.
<Spinner> Uh, I seem to have started two thoughts on that one.
<Bookpal> I think you need both at times - thrillers especially
<Casey> mental battles are much more likely to be experienced in real
life--something people can immediately identify with.
<Chipmonk> There's a thought--dictation software, hmmm.
<Spinner> My this is true. It's 'civilized conflict.'
<Bookpal> you said it, Casey
<Casey> Do you have many word recognition problems with Dragon?
<Casey> (My scanner is nice, but I end up correcting a lot of typos that
weren't in the original)
<Spinner> It takes time to 'train' it, but once you have, no problem.
<Bookpal> SF would be a challenge - I would think
<Spinner> It's got a nice BIG custom dic size
<Bookpal> cool
<Spinner> put it in once, you'll get it the next time.
<Casey> Am glad to hear that.
<Bookpal> wow
<Chipmonk> Couldn't do Help Wanted by dictation, I don't think--too many
alien languages and mispronunciations.
<Casey> Thank you for the consumer report.
<Spinner> Sorry.
<Bookpal> I wonder how that would work with a rough draft - tell the
story and then revise it once it is on the screen
<Chipmonk> Oh? You can get it to type invented words then?
<Spinner> yes. that's how I use it Book
<Casey> If you pronounce the invented word the same way each time, it
should.
<Bookpal> great tool
<Spinner> no problem with invented words.
<Chipmonk> Who makes it?
<Bookpal> how much is reasonable?
<Spinner> Dragon Dictate.
<Bookpal> like a secretary
<Spinner> It was 99.00, but various capabilities cost various amounts.
I didn't want to do e-mail, computer commands, etc.
<Spinner> I just copy and paste the latest piece into my ongoing
document.
<Bookpal> sounds good
<Spinner> I bought it when it was fairly new. It dropped in price when
a new 'model' came out.
<Chipmonk> I'll have to look into that. I'm a really slow typist.
<Bookpal> could you use a tape recorder and play it to the computer?
<Casey> Learning to compose prose verbally would be a new skill for me
to learn.
<Spinner> So am I. terrible. I like using a pen and pad and reading it
in.
<Bookpal> I use a recorder when I'm driving, etc. Then have to type it
in - maybe I could cut out the middle
<Casey> That's an idea, Spinner. I like pen and pad.
<Spinner> I edit while I do it. I don't think that would work because
you do have to command quotes and paragraph breaks and such.
<Bookpal> ok
<Casey> If she made those commands on the tape player it might work.
<Spinner> however, you could listen to it, then repeat it with the
commands.
<Casey> Both are speaking.
<Chipmonk> Unless you didn't mind sticking those in later.
<Spinner> It probably would work that way, Casey.
<Bookpal> You could learn to record that way with practice - maybe
<Casey> I've had customers give me tapes with punctuation given within
sentences.
<Spinner> you could also just put the quotes and such in like chip said,
then the only thing you'd have to say was 'cap' and 'new paragraph'
<Bookpal> technology - it's amazing. We are in the future
<Casey> Dragon offers a wide range of possibilities.
<Bookpal> This would all be SF to Shakespear
<Spinner> that's very true.
<Casey> Final elements for creating suspense:
<Casey> or controlling it
<Spinner> Eighteen years ago, i told a group of electrical engineering
students, most grad students, that in years, their computers would
chose news items according to their 'preselected criteria and read them
to them while they got ready for work. they told me that was impossible
in that length of time. :)
<Casey> An Achilles' heel in your character; a specific, known weakness
that becomes threatened or a large issue.
<Bookpal> mine does now and I love it - I was a newspaper junkie
<Spinner> Oh, definitely. superman's krytonite.
<Bookpal> Yes, Casey
<Casey> The weather.
<Chipmonk> A phobia.
<Bookpal> a fear
<Bookpal> a disease
<Casey> When your protag has to get from point A to point B and there's
a hurricane warning.
<Chipmonk> A significant other that's threatened if he wins or attacks.
<Casey> a predictor of doom.
<Spinner> Or a volcano, landslide, earthquake, river breaking a dam.
did ALL of those in one sequence once. :)
<Chipmonk> Did anyone see Snake Eyes?
<Casey> an element of the unknown: an alien that can change shapes or
is extremely difficult to detect (I'm thinking of the Puppet Masters)
<Bookpal> every thing I've studied tells me even the cop needs another
motivation besides it is his job - an old flame, his kid in danger, etc
<Casey> No, Chip.
<Spinner> me neither.
<Bookpal> no
<Chipmonk> If the protag turned in the antag, everyone would find out he
was a cop on the take and he'd lose everything.
<Bookpal> yep
<Casey> Ah-ha!
<Chipmonk> He turned him in anyway and he actually lost everything.
How's that for a twist?
<Bookpal> just finished today An American Killing - didn't start off
good but sure had a good ending - along these lines
<Spinner> I like it.
<Casey> Is there a trend toward realism developing among modern novels?
<Bookpal> in the ones I read, yes
<Casey> Geez, it's about time!
<Spinner> there's a trend toward whatever sold well a year ago.
<Bookpal> male characters are more 90's kind of guys - feelings, etc
<Bookpal> taking care of the kids, etc
<Chipmonk> Maybe a realization that life is complex and good guys aren't
always squeaky clean and there's not usually a happily ever after, but
that's okay?
<Bookpal> good, chip
<Casey> And even when you do the right thing you can suffer for it.
<Chipmonk> Yes.
<Chipmonk> And bad guys aren't always obvious and totally evil.
<Bookpal> this all fits with the book I just mentioned - sure was not
impressed to begin with but the author sure got you in the last third
<Casey> I like the trend.
<Spinner> how about the villain isn't a person?
<Chipmonk> Sometimes the bad guy is doing what he's doing for what he
thinks is a good reason.
<Spinner> he's always doing it for what he thinks is a good reason.
otherwise he wouldn't be doing it.
<Casey> Or because he's a school drop-out, it's the only way he has to
earn a living for his family.
<Bookpal> that's the same as the protag - the antag must have a reason
more than just being evil
<Chipmonk> Right.
<Casey> Exactly, Bookpal.
<Chipmonk> I have to blow up the ship because there's a disease on board
and I'm saving humanity.
<Casey> Evil isn't a pleasure, it's a world view.
<Bookpal> can I ever give you real life examples of that! ;-)
<Chipmonk> Please!
<Bookpal> right, Chip
<Spinner> I define evil as that which is destructive to the species.
Anything else is just villainy.
<Casey> you have us interested, BP! Out with some!
<Bookpal> I mean from my prison experience - they always had a reason -
sometimes I found it hard not to laugh
<Spinner> I can believe that.
<Casey> I figured that. Prisons are wonderful conglomerations of
humanity.
<Chipmonk> But in their minds it makes sense.
<Casey> And their actions were justified.
<Bookpal> one guy went to a house and asked to use the bathroom - came
out to the living room and stabbed the stranger who was kind enough to
let him in.
<Chipmonk> And his reason? No toilet paper?
<Bookpal> The killer didn't like what the guy was letting his kids watch
on tv
<Chipmonk> Wow!
<Bookpal> true story
<Casey> OH! And watching Dad get stabbed was better for the kids to
watch!
<Bookpal> I guess in his mind
<Casey> Whew!
<Bookpal> see what I mean? lol
<Chipmonk> Geez!!
<Chipmonk> I have a question.
<Casey> Instant reactions.
<Bookpal> yep, I had him in the unit for a year - I used to give him a
bad time
<Casey> What, Chip?
<Chipmonk> Teacher! Ooo! Oooo! (Paw up)
<Casey> Chipmonk?
<Chipmonk> When is there too much suspense? I've been told I drag it
out too long sometimes.
<Bookpal> must be a long ?
<Bookpal> hummmmm
<Bookpal> maybe the reader tires of waiting for the shoe to drop?
<Casey> I've heard of stories being too long--where endings should have
happened sooner, or irrelevant stuff being cut, but not of too much
suspense.
<Bookpal> same here
<Casey> Maybe too long sustained without a breaK? I mean, readers need
to take potty breaks, too.
<Chipmonk> Yes and gets depressed over things getting worse and worse.
<Bookpal> I've read some where I thought my heart would be on fast-beat
forever
<Casey> suspense is what keeps readers moving to the very last page.
<Bookpal> it does me
<Casey> If at some point suspense is not there, the reader is likely to
stop reading and not return.
<Chipmonk> In my case it's not usually heart pounding action
suspense--just the problem getting worse.
<Bookpal> like today - when I should have been doing laundry - lol
<Bookpal> maybe that is the difference and a break is needed
<Casey> It would be a problem only if the problem is so large the protag
has no solution.
<Bookpal> then put them back into the same problem
<Bookpal> shift to something else that is happening just for a few
paragraphs, etc and then come back where you left off ????
<Casey> I wouldn't want to read about a protag who's non-stop depressed.

<Chipmonk> In scav, I used Raymond for comic relief, but I'm not sure
about Help Wanted.
<Casey> Vary his challenges and his moods. Hopeful at some point,
hopeless at another.
<Bookpal> yes, that would make the reader experience the ups and downs
<Casey> I can identify with ups and downs! It happens even within the
same hour, sometimes, in my life.
<Bookpal> know the feelings
<Chipmonk> I know the feeling.
<Chipmonk> Twinkie fingers!
<Bookpal> yep
<Spinner> LOL!
<Chipmonk> We are flawed characters.
<Bookpal> I'm here alone tonight - no noise, interruptions - it's
making me sleepy
<Casey> This particular hour probably isn't helping you either.
<Bookpal> LOL!
<Spinner> perfect people are difficult to love. there's no room for a
smile and fond headshake.
<Bookpal> to bad we can't hear our laughing
<Spinner> Giggles are contagious, even in cyber reality.
<Bookpal> this is a good lesson in voice - we all have one
<Casey> Definitely. How many nights have we gotten punchy together?
<Chipmonk> Yup!
<Bookpal> true
<Bookpal> you gals have the hour to blame - I don't. Yikes
<Bookpal> must be old age here
<Casey> Spinner's down your end of the U.S., BP.
<Bookpal> right - we are on the same time now
<Bookpal> we use to be neighbors - so to speak - side by side states
<Casey> Well, NW's is officially over, so we can degenerate at leisure.
<Spinner> yes, wish I could have stopped by on the way through, but...
<Chipmonk> So do you speak the same slanguage?
<Bookpal> I know - I was looking forward to that - but do understand,
Spinner
<Bookpal> yep, no accent either
<Spinner> there's really not much slang specific to any place but the
north and south east coast.
<Bookpal> true
<Bookpal> we get someone here from NY and we giggle the whole time they
are talking
<Spinner> we're a lot more 'standardized over here. In England, if you
travel forty miles the accent changes.
<Chipmonk> Hey, I go one state south and can't ask for pop.
<Chipmonk> East either.
<Bookpal> it's pop here, too - not soda
<Spinner> Where are you, chip?
<Chipmonk> Indiana
<Casey> "Pop." You want your dad, right, Chip?
<Spinner> I don't usually come to NW because I don't really belong here.

<Spinner> If you'd had a bunch of them, I'd have probably said hello and
gone.
<Chipmonk> No my dad wants pop.
<Bookpal> talking about suspense - I got an email the other night from a
friend here in town - she heard a noise upstairs and went to investigate

<Bookpal> she told me if she was killed she would come to me - and don't
be afraid
<Chipmonk> And?
<Bookpal> she forgot to hit send before she went to look!
<Spinner> LOL
<Bookpal> Did I ever yell at her
<Bookpal> how was that as far as keeping you reading?
<Casey> That's the part in the book when you start yelling, No! don't
do that! Don't be dumb! Stay downstairs.
<Chipmonk> Lol! Yes!
<Bookpal> right - it was her husband who came home early
<Chipmonk> Darn!
<Bookpal> they live out in the woods and her computer room is in the
basement
<Chipmonk> What a let down.
<Spinner> I don't worry about strange noises. the cats have already
investigated.
<Bookpal> lol
<Casey> CHIP!!!
<Bookpal> she would get a kick out of that Chip
<Chipmonk> Just kidding! I was hoping for a ghost or something cool!
<Bookpal> I was excited about her "coming to me - I was ready
<Spinner> anyone else include animals in their books?
<Chipmonk> Rats.
<Bookpal> not yet
<Bookpal> lol, Chip
<Spinner> I mean pets, not alien creatures.
<Chipmonk> Their are rats in my books!
<Spinner> yeah, I did a dungeon with rats that gave the friend helping
me type it nightmares.
<Bookpal> my cat is named Beaumont after a J.A. Jance character
<Casey> Oh, yes. I like animals.
<Spinner> I can't imagine space traders not having cats on ships. well
some might not, but I think many would.
<Bookpal> I'm sick of the CAT WHO books - quit reading them - the cats
were the only good parts
<Chipmonk> Haven't read them.
<Spinner> By who?
<Bookpal> they sure sell - and readers wait for them
<Chipmonk> Seems like there are a lot of cats in books.
<Bookpal> Lillian Braun
<Bookpal> the cats always help solve the crime
<Spinner> Nope, never read and probably wouldn't.
<Bookpal> not to bother in my judgment
<Spinner> Oh, yes, heard about those.
<Chipmonk> Oh! I started a book with a cat in it--never finished it.
<Bookpal> cool cats - other characters suck
<Spinner> LOL!
<Bookpal> This is not how I describe a book at work
<Chipmonk> I even thought about getting Bookpal to help me with it, but
still don't want to write it.
<Spinner> I do some pretty cool horses too. remembering that domestic
species DO keep changing.
<Bookpal> what is it, Chip?
<Bookpal> good idea Spinner
<Chipmonk> A supernatural murder mystery.
<Bookpal> cool
<Bookpal> do it
<Chipmonk> It scared me too much.
<Spinner> Why don't you want to write it?
<Bookpal> is it too spooky for you?
<Bookpal> lol
<Chipmonk> Yes.
<Spinner> OK, answers that question.
<Chipmonk> I don't want to know what did it.
<Spinner> LOL
<Bookpal> if it scares you it would be a best seller
<Spinner> I always wonder if people who like books that scare them have
ever really BEEN scared.
<Bookpal> years ago when Robin Lee Hatcher started writing her
historical romances she made me read them knowing I never did
<Casey> I can read only a few really scary books, well spaced between
reads.
<Spinner> Wondering if they were going to live through the next five
minutes.
<Chipmonk> I think it has something to do with physiological need--need
to get their hearts pounding.
<Bookpal> all she wanted to know is if I laughed, cried and on what
pages
<Bookpal> if she could get to me she figured she had it made with the
romance readers
<Spinner> good point
<Chipmonk> How did you survive!
<Bookpal> you have to have been scared to really understand
<Bookpal> Robin has done well
<Chipmonk> Being forced to read romance novels scares me.
<Spinner> I kept very cool and thought fast.
<Bookpal> She is good,
<Spinner> some aren't bad. a lot of the e-published ones are pretty
good. they don't have to follow a formula and can put a lot more story
in the story.
<Bookpal> she is not run of the mill - very serious writer
<Bookpal> lots of research
<Chipmonk> That's good.
<Chipmonk> Hey wanna see me scare bookpal?
<Bookpal> go for it
<Spinner> romance writers were the first to turn to e-publishing.
dreams Unlimited and Hard shell both have a number of romances by
multilply published romance writers.
<Chipmonk> Bookie goes to work and they tell her
<Chipmonk> she has to
<Chipmonk> read the
<Chipmonk> HORSE WHISPERER!!!!
<Bookpal> I QUIT !!!!!
<Spinner> LOL
<Chipmonk> LOL!!
<Bookpal> That is a nightmare thought
<Chipmonk> (Our favorite book to hate)
<Bookpal> yes, it is
<Bookpal> marketing killed that one - if you ask me
<Chipmonk> I thought it was going to be about horses, not adultery.
<Bookpal> 7 million dollars and it was awful because it was not what you
expected - it was a stupid romance
<Bookpal> right, Chip
<Chipmonk> I thought A Thousand Acres was going to be about farming too.
<Bookpal> I haven't even tried his other book The Loop
<Bookpal> lol
<Chipmonk> Just another, why I hate men story.
<Spinner> Um, the book I'm about to finish, fire Eagles and Swan isn't
about birds, Chip.
<Chipmonk> Awww!
<Bookpal> marketing made Nicolas Sparks on the other hand
<Spinner> I did back up a whole chapter and change where i was going
once. didn't like the bit, felt wrong for the characters.
<Bookpal> some writers keep rewriting the beginning because it has to
change to fit the other parts - leave it and fix it when the rough draft
is completed
<Chipmonk> That's happened to me, Spinner, got stopped dead in my tracks
cuz the characters wouldn't go there.
<Spinner> I don't have time to be indecisive. I wrote 26 books in six
years and four of them are over 250,000 words.
<Bookpal> wow
<Chipmonk> I don't like writing that much.
<Spinner> heehee
<Bookpal> I have James Michener's Writer's Handbook sitting here - very
interesting how he does it.
<Chipmonk> I avoid it whenever possible.
<Spinner> I get going and... swear when I drop the pen because i HAVE to
stop to sleep.
<Chipmonk> How does he do it?
<Spinner> he starts with the formation of the planet.
<Spinner> Sorry.
<Chipmonk> That's why I hate writing. It takes over my mind, my life.
I get dangerously dysfunctional.
<Bookpal> The samples (lol Spin) are so badly typed it is no wonder he
has a staff
<Bookpal> I'm just about to read the chapter titled Editing the lost
data
<Spinner> that's why I 'put it off' until I didn't have other demands on
my time, chip.
<Chipmonk> Wait! He starts with the formation of the planet? Every
book or a particular book?
<Bookpal> I thought I was there in my life Spinner, but found out I was
wrong. Now I am ready to demand my due
<Bookpal> You must not have read Hawaii, Chip
<Spinner> you didn't have any doubt which one I meant.
<Chipmonk> No, never read Michener. I'm afraid of very long books.
<Bookpal> You had to make it through how the islands formed before you
got to the story
<Chipmonk> They make you blind.
<Bookpal> I finally skipped all that
<Bookpal> lol, Spinner
<Bookpal> once he got to the meat it was good
<Spinner> yes, but I felt like I'd read half a geology text by the time
there WAS a story.
<Bookpal> One of my favorites of his is The Novel - really different
than most of his. About a writer
<Chipmonk> If he wasn't famous, could he get away with that?
<Bookpal> true - I kept quitting and then just skipped all that
<Bookpal> He wasn't famous then
<Spinner> I prefer clavell and costain to michener.
<Bookpal> clavell does a good job
<Chipmonk> I don't know who that is. You guys are going to think I'm
illiterate!
<Bookpal> I think Hawaii put him on the famous list
<Spinner> it did.
<Bookpal> Clavell - Sho-gun if I'm right
<Spinner> Clavelle- shogun Costain, the black rose, the Tontine, last
of the Platagenets. GREAT historical fiction.
<Bookpal> I'm getting brain dead because I brainstormed all day with
ideas from last night
<Casey> Am glad we inspired you last night, BP. that's really, really
neat.
<Chipmonk> How's your book coming, Bookie?
<Bookpal> you did - that's for sure
<Bookpal> well, I'm going to start over
<Bookpal> I think I can go with it now - wasn't happy with what I had -
need to tell the story but didn't know how to start it - still might
not, but have other ideas to work with
<Casey> that's the problem I was having with Moons' Kiss.
<Chipmonk> Great!
<Bookpal> I did reveal some info to Zach today and he got excited -
makes me feel good. So I am motivated - but I want you to read it not
knowing too much ahead so I can get a real reaction
<Chipmonk> Okay.
<Casey> Was never happy with the flashback, and can't believe it took me
so long to figure out to ditch it and begin where the flashback was.
<Bookpal> seems simple now doesn't it
<Spinner> that's what i told a writer to do a few days ago.
<Bookpal> I kept trying to think how to start with action but just felt
I had to set everything up first and I know better
<Casey> Yep. Could kick myself for not seeing it sooner. I'd be a lot
farther along with the story if I'd done so.
<Bookpal> same here
<Casey> I'll be glad to read anything you feel comfortable sharing, BP.
<Spinner> I start with SLAM and go racing on from there.
<Bookpal> I'm better with dialogue than anything and can use it to fill
in the blanks instead of trying to do it with uncomfortable narrative
<Spinner> I like using dialog too. It's the form of exposition we're
all really MOST familiar with these days.
<Bookpal> I do hate to throw out the s'mores bit - but now I won't be
able to use it. Another day another story perhaps
<Bookpal> I agree, spinner
<Chipmonk> I like a mixture, but mostly I like getting in characters'
heads.
<Spinner> We grew up with television as our main form of entertainment,
even those of us who read a great deal. doing it 'just like they did 50
years ago is silly. We have a different audience.
<Casey> I like the s'mores bit. You'll have to write a story involving
kids now.
<Bookpal> That was one thing that was bothering me - starting with
teenagers might have made people expect a different kind of story
<Chipmonk> Some stories are better told in books though.
<Bookpal> maybe a young adult mystery
<Chipmonk> Right.
<Spinner> I read one like that recently. the one I told the author to
go back and begin at the beginning. :)
<Casey> Adults picking up the book might be turned off when the first
thing they read are kids.
<Spinner> I thought it was a 'coming of age book'
<Chipmonk> I thought the kids would get killed or be witnesses or find a
body.
<Bookpal> You are right, Spinner
<Bookpal> Casey, that is exactly my point
<Spinner> Ooh, envy is USUALLY mixed with other emotions. notice that?
<Bookpal> good point
<Casey> Is it because we're taught envy is bad, she we suffer guilt,
etc?
<Casey> so we . . .
<Spinner> Guilt is a civilizing emotion. no emotion can be 'gotten rid
of'. they can only be dealt with. Lord, two sentences in a row that
ended with a preposition.
<Casey> LOL!
<Bookpal> lol - spinner
<Casey> Guilt in action.
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