CHAT ARCHIVE - 8-21-99, Beginnings

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CHAT ARCHIVE - 8-21-99, Beginnings

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       ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Aug 22 01:08:23 1999

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<shorty103> Hello
<shorty103> I know your pulling everyone in, but can I share something
with you that I wrote this morning.
<Casey> Sure
<shorty103> I wish the people would learn to love, not only themselves,
but each other. I know there is so much destruction in this world
without the help of man. Somewhere in the middle of all this, is a young
man, and a young woman who are just beginning their flight into life.
One has mastered the art of survival. The other will soon learn. Two
separate journeys. Two unsuspecting players. Drawn together to learn one
of life's many tests.
<shorty103> Thanks Casey for letting me share this
<shorty103> any thoughts?
<Casey> "their flight into life" has interesting connotations. It
sounds either like they're running away, or brings up the image of baby
birds getting ready to fly.
<shorty103> I wrote it this morning, just off the top of my head, I
don't if it will go anywhere, but it may fit in somewhere
<shorty103> well, it's the first draft on it
<Casey> How do you "learn tests"? Usually, you learn a lesson.
<shorty103> I just wrote what came to mind, but I can fix it up later
<Casey> Spinner will be joining us after we've completed the grammar
lesson, which tonight is about punctuation of quoted material.
<Casey> We all use dialogue, so I thought this was a useful grammar
lesson.
<Casey> The general rule is that the ending punctuation comes inside the
quotation marks.
<Casey> "I don't want to go."
<Casey> "No!"
<Casey> When something like He said comes before the quoted material,
it's set off by a comma.
<Casey> He said, "We should all go."
<Casey> When He said follows the quote, the period is replaced by a
comma: "We can all go," he said.
<shorty103> Oh, I haven't done that before! interesting twist
<Casey> If the quoted material is a question or exclamation, that is the
punctuation: "No!" he shouted.
<Casey> When the dialogue tag comes in the middle, it gets a bit more
complicated.
<kissfan> this is where I run into probs
<Casey> If you're simply interrupting the flow of the quoted sentence,
set the speaker off with commas.
<Casey> "There is no use in working," he complained, "when it only makes
me sleepy."
<shorty103> " like I said!" she began to explain," you do it like this,
not like that!"
<Casey> Yours would have to be, "Like I said," she began to explain,
"you do it like this, not like that!"
<Casey> An exclamation point ends the sentence.
<shorty103> okay, I do see the difference
<Casey> "You heard me!" she shouted. "You do it like this, not like
that!" is another way of handling it.
<shorty103> understood
<Casey> Notice the period after "shouted"?
<shorty103> yes
<Casey> They are actually 2 different sentences.
<shorty103> okay
<kissfan> I got it now I see I have punctuation mistakes to fix LOL
<Casey> Punctuation will also tell the reader which half of the quoted
material the dialogue tag belongs to.
<Casey> Anyone care to attach the tag to the second half of our sample
sentence rather than the first half?
<Casey> "Didn't you hear me?" He explained again, "You do it like this,
not like that."
<shorty103> " Yes! " she shouted back.
<Casey> By capitalizing He, it begins the next sentence which contains
the "You do it . . ." quote.
<Casey> lol, Rose!
<kissfan> HEHEE
<shorty103> sorry, I couldn't help myself
<Casey> You used perfect punctuation!
<Casey> To use a quote within a quote, you begin with " then enclose
the inside quotation in single '
<shorty103> grammar for me is putting in the words that are suppose to
be there, not a hit and miss!
<Casey> Note the ending punctuation in the following example.
<Casey> She turned and said, "Remember Mom's advice, 'When other people
run, you walk.'"
<Casey> That's a period, ', then "
<shorty103> yes, I see where your going on this, that's why Chip turned
and ran!
<Casey> he he. I suspect that Chip knows this.
<shorty103> same here, but it was a good laugh why it lasted! LOL
<Chipmonk> I did not run! I walked slowly carefully stepping over dogs.

<kissfan> HEHEE
<Casey> Indirect quotations are not put in quotation marks.
<Casey> He told me not to go. Is an example.
<Chipmonk> My dog said that I had better not step on him.
<kissfan> she told me to set the table
<Casey> They look so much like rugs, though.
<shorty103> and that why my kitten climbs my legs so I don't step on him

<Casey> Exactly, Kathy. But you forgot to capitalize She and end with a
period.
<Chipmonk> No, greyhounds look like TV trays lying on the floor.
<shorty103> LOLO
<kissfan> HEHEE Ya I know I saw that after
<Casey> And you did that in a grammar class! For shame.
<shorty103> I can tell this is going to be an interesting evening
<kissfan> OOPS sorry HEHEE
<Casey> Anyone have questions?
<Chipmonk> Stand in the corner! Stand in the corner!
<kissfan> <----runs to corner and pouts
<kissfan> HEHEE
<Casey> There is one other form I didn't mention. He yelled "Stop!" and
grabbed the wheel.
<Casey> That's enclosing the quote in narrative.
<Casey> Poor Kathy has enough work ahead of her correcting dialogue
punctuation. We should feel sorry for her.
<Chipmonk> Okay, she can come out.
<kissfan> yep about 10 chapters of it
<Casey> Ouch!
<shorty103> that's a good one! " I guess somebody saying, " Will she
shut up already and get on with the lesson at hand! " Casey snaps at
the class.
<Casey> I pulled Spinner in because that's the end of the grammar lesson
unless there are questions.
<shorty103> No!
<kissfan> actually most of it is just checking to make sure it is right
<Casey> That's tedious enough.
<kissfan> yep it is
<Casey> Okay, tonight's discussion is about beginnings.
<Casey> If our beginnings don't work, readers won't read on to discover
how brilliant our premise is.
<Spinner> In e-pub, if your beginning doesn't work, they'll go read
someone else's second paragraph
<shorty103> mine is still hidden from sight from the reader and me! LOL

<Casey> What are some of the admonitions we've all heard about
beginnings? I know you folks have heard them, too.
<Chipmonk> Don't start, "It was a dark and stormy night."
<Spinner> don't start with description
<Chipmonk> Don't start with a lecture.
<Casey> It's funny, Chip, but one of the best-known SF stories around
begins with, Once upon a time . . .
<Chipmonk> Which one?
<Casey> Once upon a time there was a Martian named Valentine Michael
Smith.
<Casey> Stranger in a Strange Land, by Robert A. Heinlein, copyright
1961
<Chipmonk> Ah!
<shorty103> should one start in the middle of action?
<Spinner> I usually do.
<Casey> Yes, beginning in the middle of action is the place to start.
<shorty103> what if there is no action until later on in the story?
<Spinner> then you probably won't sell the story.
<Spinner> sometimes you can do something else, if it's unusual or
interesting enough.
<Casey> The other way to begin stories is by establishing mood.
<Spinner> shorty, your description of action may be too narrow.
<shorty103> okay, but that is what I'm working on now, trying to find a
good place to start my story, even though, I have written down over 7000
words, it still needs a good place to start.
<Casey> You began with the pivotal point for the protag, Rose: The day
she discovers she's adopted. Everything that follows is related to that
discovery.
<shorty103> okay
<Casey> Spinner's right. "Action" doesn't have to be a gun fight.
<shorty103> I see that.
<Spinner> If done right, dialog is a form of action.
<Spinner> Of course, I have begun stories with a gunfight.
<Casey> But it does need to be something significant: a turning point
for the character, usually.
<Chipmonk> It needs to be something that gets attention and makes the
reader think who what huh?
<shorty103> yes, I've learned that too! Not trying to be smart, but I
have done so much reading on writing, but some of it is really sinking
in.
<Spinner> Of course, I've also started one with a version of 'once upon
a time'.
<kissfan> ya same here Rose
<Spinner> I admit I haven't done any reading on writing, but I've read
an incredible amount of writing and looked for why it was good.
<shorty103> yes, a story question for the reader, that is to make the
reader go further into the book to find the answer.
<Casey> One of the neatest beginnings I can recall (I don't have the
book to quote from it directly) is to be found in Something Wicked This
Way Comes. It combines action with ominous mood.
<Spinner> Very true.
<Chipmonk> Something about the wind changing and lightening rods, wasn't
it?
<Casey> A lightning rod salesman coming to town immediately before a
storm.
<Spinner> Of course with that one, you were hooked from the title.
<shorty103> yes, I can see that title Casey
<Casey> Reading is essential for getting a feel for writing.
<Spinner> Read, read, read and write,write, write
<Casey> I've learned through my own work that theory and application are
two entirely different things.
<Casey> I can understand how writing should work by reading about
writing, but it takes writing and more writing to figure out how to
apply those theories.
<shorty103> yes, you are right again Casey
<kissfan> yes that is very true
<shorty103> so with what I've shared at the beginning of this chat, if
cleaned up it could be a somewhat good opening
<Chipmonk> Want my favorite beginning of a story I've read?
<Casey> Yes, Chip.
<Chipmonk> True, nervous, very, very, dreadfully nervous. But why will
you say that I am mad? A disease that sharpens my senses, not dulls,
not destroys, but above all, was my sense of hearing acute. I heard all
things in heaven and earth. I heard many things in hell.
<Casey> Wow! What a beginning.
<kissfan> WOW
<Chipmonk> Oops. left out a sentence.
<Chipmonk> Mr. Poe will be upset with me.
<kissfan> I thought that was Poe
<Casey> Interesting. I was just reading some of Poe this afternoon.
<Chipmonk> That's Telltale Heart.
<shorty103> was that by Edgar Allan Poe - Tell - Tale Heart
<Chipmonk> Yes.
<kissfan> I thought I recognized it but it has been a while since I had
read it
<Chipmonk> A frantic beginning, I'd say.
<kissfan> ya very true
<Spinner> Back and said "Poe!" definitely a master of beginnings
<kissfan> yep
<Casey> Someone else have a beginning they'd like to share?
<Spinner> you've got some from me.
<shorty103> okay, I was just reading it, and that is why I went and
found out how to spell his name and the name of the poem
<kissfan> I didn't have time to send mine but I do have it here
<Casey> That's okay, Kathy. Want to give yours now, and I'll collect
one of Spinners next?
<kissfan> ok]
<kissfan> walked along the quiet road. He could hear the roar of the
ocean to his left, the smell of it hitting his nostrils full force like
the scent of a spring day after a rain. He stopped to listen briefly to
the rhythm of the waves hitting the shore below,like an old favorite
song that had no words. He licked his lips tasting the bitterness of
the sea salt that was caked on his them making him thirsty. He adjusted
his backpack and reached for his water skin, he pressed it to his lips
and drank from it like he hadn't had a drink in days. He looked around
him, there were trees to his right and the rock cliffs that dropped to
the ocean below on his left, making him feel more alone in his travels,
but he knew that he must go on.
<shorty103> Casey, I hope you don't get mad at me, but I still have
completed that assignment you gave me, there have been lots of things
to do, and I just remembered it just now
<shorty103> Wow! that was great kissfan
<kissfan> thank you
<Casey> My immediate realization from reading that, Kathy, is that every
single one of your sentences begins with "He."
<kissfan> that is one of the things I am going to change, this is first
draft
<Chipmonk> Yes, you need to vary your sentence structure.
<Casey> As an exercise, you might try to rewrite them so some begin
differently.
<Spinner> I noticed that too.   yes, you can drop the He and slightly
rearrange and make it stronger
<Chipmonk> Like the last part, just leave out "he looked around."
<shorty103> I did notice that, but I didn't say anything, bad me!
<Chipmonk> Start with "The trees on his right....
<kissfan> yes I had already noticed that I knew that I would have to go
back and change it
<Spinner> Like... Trees on his right and cliffs that dropped to the
ocean below on his left made him feel more alone, but..
<kissfan> yes I see. That does sound better
<Casey> One other trick for strengthening this paragraph is to eliminate
the redundancies.
<Casey> You mentioned the ocean twice: once in the second sentence and
again later. One single description that gives us the image of the
waves at the base of the cliff on his left is enough.
<Chipmonk> I think the trees need a lonely adjective though. I don't
know why the trees would make him feel alone.
<Spinner> Sometimes you can strengthen and increase pace by dropping the
articles.
<Chipmonk> There are some sensory discrepancies too.
<Chipmonk> Quiet road/roar of ocean.
<kissfan> ok
<Spinner> the sea salt I'm familiar with isn't bitter, it's sweet.
<Chipmonk> Yes, the sea tastes salty not bitter.
<Chipmonk> Ocean doesn't smell like rain.
<kissfan> oops
<Spinner> No, it smells fishy, sometimes dead fishy
<kissfan> I see what you mean
<Chipmonk> And Spring smells wormy/
<Spinner> yep.
<kissfan> Yep like I said I have a lot of work to do
<Spinner> you'll get it. You're off to a good start, despite the
commentary. it's not slow.
<kissfan> I knew there was a ton of mistakes that needed fixing
<Chipmonk> But I think I see what your working toward.
<kissfan> cool
<Chipmonk> Lonely, dejected, maybe desperate.
<Chipmonk> Needing something he hasn't been able to attain.
<kissfan> yep
<Chipmonk> See? It came through in spite of the mistakes.
<shorty103> What about;   Journ walked along a sea-side road. The smell
of the salt air woke up his senses.
<Casey> That's telling, not showing, Rose
<shorty103> okay, I get confused, I'm a master at that! LOL
<Casey> "The smell of the salt air woke up his senses" isn't giving us
the feel of his senses being alive, and which senses are stimulated, and
how.
<kissfan> I know I will get it to sound right sooner or later LOL
<shorty103> okay, but isn't that what salt air does, wake up the senses
<Casey> Kathy did that by having him taste the salt on his lips.
<Casey> And people who live in the midwest and have never been to an
ocean would not know what you were talking about.
<Casey> Reva turned around. It wasn't easy. The ledge was narrow with
a crumbling edge and she didn't move well, but she was too damn mad to
die. The ledge was over the place her ship had been. Her partner had
been on it. She'd been with their passenger. The passenger was why her
ship and partner were gone and she was going to get her back from the
slime who'd grabbed her, but she didn't have much time. Valady could
not be coerced. She would die first and she was quite capable of
deciding to get herself killed. She moved another centimeter. She
didn't count the ones left to the place the crater sloped and she could
get to the top. She counted the ones she gained.
<Chipmonk> I like "she was too damn mad to die."
<Casey> That's my favorite line, too.
<kissfan> ya me too
<Spinner> That's Reva.
<shorty103> sounds like Jim, he says something like that all the time,
great line.
<Chipmonk> Valady. Is that a name?
<Spinner> this is from a work in progress titled Beau Zen, and that
title was rather my introduction to our Zen.
<Casey> The only preposition that throws me is "going to get her back. .
.." I don't know who or what "her" refers to.
<Spinner> yes, valady is a name.
<Spinner> the passenger
<Chipmonk> Yes I was a bit confused on who was being talked bout, Reva
or Valady.
<Casey> I wasn't sure whether it referred to the ship, her partner or
the passenger.
<Spinner> Valady is going to get herself killed and take the nasty bunch
with her the next paragraph, but she leaves a will, and that's where the
story starts.
<Casey> It's definitely beginning in the center of action!
<Chipmonk> This reveals a lot about the character's personality.
<kissfan> It sure is
<Casey> the ones left refers to centimeters?
<Spinner> yep
<Casey> She's definitely not a wimp.
<Casey> Someone else have a beginning they wish to risk with us
vampires?
<Spinner> the first paragraph is intended to cause questions. it should
make the reader want to read on.
<Casey> Rose, do you want me to bring down the one you wrote this
morning for a more in-depth chopping?
<Chipmonk> I do hee hee!
<shorty103> yes
<Casey> Go for it, Chip!
<Chipmonk> Entire first chapter.
<Chipmonk> Uuugh   how does this thing work? Wait a     Oh, I don't
believe this! The computer is typin evrything I say. Aw Jeez!
<Chipmonk>
<Chipmonk> It even mipronounces stuff! I can't do this. This is dumb!
I'm sittin here watchin   watching   the computer write down evrything
ev er y thing I'm sayin. I can't do this. This is just too weird.
<Casey> he he! I recognize that one, Chip!
<Spinner> LOL. good one, Chip.
<Casey> Very good.
<shorty103> interesting
<Casey> By his dialect, we get an instant feel for him.
<Casey> Also, by his interaction and reaction to the computer, we gain
further information about him as a person.
<shorty103> Casey, when Chip is done, can you bring that one down, I
know it could be improved
<Casey> Yes, Rose.
<shorty103> thank you
<Chipmonk> The second chapter is him apologizing because he can't write.

<Casey> I wish the people would learn to love, not only themselves, but
each other. I know there is so much destruction in this world without
the help of man. Somewhere in the middle of all this, is a young man,
and a young woman who are just beginning their flight into life. One has
mastered the art of survival. The other will soon learn. Two separate
journeys. Two unsuspecting players. Drawn together to learn one of
life's many tests.
<shorty103> what do you think of the first sentence Casey
<Casey> This is for everyone's comment.
<Spinner> first person. author viewpoint?
<shorty103> I wish people would learn to love themselves, and each
other.
<Chipmonk> It looks like it switches viewpoint.
<Casey> The second sentence I'm more curious about.
<Casey> "so much destruction in this world without the help of man."
That would refer to nature's destruction. Is that what you mean?
<shorty103> yes
<Chipmonk> Is man preventing or causing destruction?
<Spinner> You switch from first person narrator to third person
omniscient in the middle.
<shorty103> I did!
<shorty103> I didn't even knew I did that
< Chipmonk> And there is no action here.
<Casey> These are mostly statements.
<shorty103> good questions, I have to rethink it over
<Chipmonk> I feel like I'm going to be taught something.
<Casey> Rather than state, two journeys, two people drawn together to
learn (a lesson), I would rather simply have their story begun.
<Spinner> Me too.
<shorty103> yes
<shorty103> I do agree
<Chipmonk> But I want to read an interesting story, not a lesson.
<shorty103> yes, I agree Chip
<Casey> If there's a moral involved, I would rather figure out what that
moral is for myself.
<Spinner> this is like Rod Sterling doing a twilight zone intro with his
own opinion of the state of the world first.
<kissfan> I was thinking that
<Chipmonk> That should just happen without telling me I will be taught
something about life.
<shorty103> is that good, or should I change the whole thing
<Spinner> You should change it.
<shorty103> okay
<shorty103> I wil think about it, and see what comes of it
<Chipmonk> Not unless you want to end it, but this is no ordinary,
school, it exists somewhere in the Twilight Zone.
<Casey> Don't be afraid to be specific, Rose.
<Spinner> Casey, the one that starts the gavel came down... is an type
of allegory that has a very strong moral.
<shorty103> explain Casey
<Casey> Rose, frequently you make broad statements. Like your second
sentence here. Don't be afraid to say something like, "There are enough
earthquakes and tornadoes in the world without man adding to the
destruction."
<Casey> Personally, I don't have a problem with stories that have morals
as long as they are subtly woven into the action and ending. Where I
can finish reading and think, wow, isn't that true?
<Spinner> Mine are a bit more subtle than that. they're intended to
make a person realize they're doing what was in the story, just before
they do it, sometime later.
<Chipmonk> Yes, but as you said, you want to figure it out or get a
revelation, not have someone shake their finger at you and say now see?
<Spinner> yep
<Casey> Exactly, chip.
<Casey> Writing is and should be a reflection of our current or past
societies.
<shorty103> so if I wanted to show someone that they are not alone
within a situation that they might be experiencing now, they can read
about one person way of getting out of it and it might give them the
strength to get out of it for themselves.
<Spinner> this begins like it's a person who intends to change 'the way
it is' then you drop two characters into it and make me blink.
<Chipmonk> Interesting, Spinner. A difficult trick.
<Chipmonk> That was in reference to your description of your own story.
<Spinner> I do it a lot.
<Casey> Yes, Rose. Only, you do that by simply telling the
protagonist's story. People will recognize their own situation or
selves in that story if it's skillfully done. And how the potag gets
out of their predicament can give someone else the hope of improving
their own life situation.
<shorty103> yes, that point is becoming clear to me
<Spinner> Exactly. there's no better way to teach a lesson than with a
story.
<shorty103> yes, I am beginning to see that I am making one mistake
after another, and I don't know what to do, I feel I am getting further
away from the story I want to tell.
<Spinner> rose, start the story with the story. it's probably down
there in your second or third paragraph.
<shorty103> okay, Spinner, I will look at the hard copy that I've made
and see if I can capture that paragraph
<shorty103> with a rewrite
<Chipmonk> Wherever the action starts.
<shorty103> okay
<Spinner> *grin* Rewrites, the writer's bane and friend. definitely
cohort to editor.
<Chipmonk> Next?
<shorty103> well that seems I'm doing more rewriting than writing, but I
don't mind if it brings me closer to the end
<Chipmonk> That's a good start.
<Casey> Rewriting is where we learn the craft of writing.
<Spinner> Pitch another one of mine up there for the slaughter if you
haven't got more ready, Casey.
<Casey> They were brother and sister, maybe ten and fourteen years old
respectively, lying shoulder-to-shoulder in the hay cart. Neither was
conscious. The girl's face was swollen with irregular purple blotches,
a symptom of the blue death that Yutrenta saw in nightmares when she was
able to sleep at all. The boy's disease had not progressed as far, but
with their father's eyes upon her, Yutrenta examined the boy first.
Diplomacy, and thus credibility, might have to sustain this family when
compassion failed.
<Russ> Shouldn't start so passive. Not a good hook
<shorty103> yes, and I will keep on going until I learn to do it right,
all most right, it will take as long as it take to get to that point,
<coyote> i kinda like it , its a little slow but there alot in there i
think
<coyote> underneath it so-to-speak
<Spinner> Pull the piece about nightmares out of the middle and put it
at the front.
<Chipmonk> I started out thinking boringly pastoral, then we get a yucky
disease. Cool.
<Casey> lol, Chip!
<Casey> Good suggestion, Spinner.
<shorty103> yes, it reminds of my own disease, Lupus, but that is not as
bad as the one mentioned here
<Russ> How about combining the first two sentences into one active one
<Casey> Spinner suggested putting the nightmare sentence first.
<Russ> Do we need to know the ages right off?
<Casey> That's not crucial information.
<Russ> Get rid of it then
<coyote> i think it helps establish that they are younger
<Spinner> This needs rewording more than anything else. it needs to
carry a stronger emotive punch. the nightmares bit is sort of lost in
the middle and it's the sentence with real impact.
<Chipmonk> I can't figure out how to put the nightmare first, but how
about they were brother and sister. Neither was conscious. Then the
nightmare sentence.
<Casey> Or, Neither brother nor sister were conscious?
<Chipmonk> Just leave out the ages and the hay cart.
<Russ> the brother and sister lay unconscios in the back of the hay cart

<Casey> What I just wrote would do that.
<Casey> eliminate the ages and hay cart.
<Casey> Then go into the nightmares.
<Chipmonk> Yup.
<Spinner> Nightmares of blue death carried into the day, the disease
called the blue death was far too real.
<Casey> Then you mention blue death twice, Spinner.
<Casey> Nightmares carried into the day . . . then the rest is better.
<Spinner> oops, changed the end of the sentence and forgot I'd put it at
the front. Remember, I watch my fingers when I type
<coyote> "uncouncious they lay in a hay cart, brother and sister, there
faces marked by the blue death"???
<Chipmonk> Nightmares of swollen purple faces, pain and fear carried
into the day.
<Russ> Yutrenta looked back at the blue splotched face of his daughter.
The swollen face recalled all to real nightmares that haunted his nights

<Russ> And his days
<Casey> Except that Yutrenta is a she and this isn't her daughter, Russ.
<Russ> Oops, sorry <g>
<Spinner> i got she's a healer and helpless in the situation.
<Casey> You're right, Spinner.
<Chipmonk> Yup.
<shorty103> brother and sister lay unconscious in the hay cart, their
faces scared with the signs of blue death.
<Russ> I just read too fast and miss things all the time
<Chipmonk> I'm gonna have Black Death flashbacks.
<Casey> Opps! sorry, Chip.
<Spinner> Two more children, brother and sister , about ten and
fourteen, thae back of the cart held the dying future.
<Casey> The gavel came down and it was over. It had been a farce. A
bad dream. They'd kept thinking they'd wake up. They'd kept thinking
someone would stop it. They'd kept thinking their world would protest.
Perhaps it had. Or perhaps seven hundred nine people were too few for
Madras to bother with. Seven hundred nine and one trial and one
verdict. Guilty. Guilty of being in the wrong place at the right time.
Guilty of being on a ship that had needed emergency repair. Guilty of
asking for help. Guilty of asking the Yano to aid them. The charge was
trespass. They hadn't even set foot on the world until the armed guards
herded them into a shuttle, then transports and from them into a cage.
<Casey> This is the gavel one that Spinner mentioned earlier.
<Chipmonk> I like it except for "they'd".
<Spinner> LOL! A top editor for Avon told me to use the contraction to
give it more contemporary feel, Chip
<coyote> 2 groups you just cant trust are aliens and governments
<Chipmonk> And humans, and squirrels, and foxes, and...
<Casey> A choice between aliens and governments, I think I'd have to
trust the aliens.
<Chipmonk> I don't like they had either.
<coyote> yes i think the squirrels are the worst, accept 4 the camels
<Spinner> the Yano aren't aliens. they're humans and it's their world
<Chipmonk> Any way you could just make it they?
<shorty103> I'm not sure what to think, you end up getting from both
ends of that stick.
<Spinner> It's past tense.
<Chipmonk> I know, but it sounds better with they. It's almost poetic.
<Casey> The pronouns that bother me are the two "them's" in the last
sentence. The first refers to the prisoners, the second to the
transports--and it's the second them that stops me and makes me reread.
<coyote> even though they're human aren't they still aliens to anyone
not of their world?
<Spinner> hmmm... it could be from those into a cage.
<kissfan> ok that is why I have read it 5 times. I was wondering what
didn't make sense to me
<Casey> That would read better, Spinner.
<Spinner> hang on, let me see something...
<Chipmonk> How about from there, into a cage.
<Casey> As much as Frenchmen are alien to Americans, coyote.
<coyote> ahh
<Chipmonk> undocumented aliens.
<shorty103> as they are here in Canada too! Quebec wants to be a
country of it own, and that would not sit well with the rest of Canada
<Casey> I see why she's using the plural those. Transports is plural.
<Spinner> yep, old copy. sorry. here.
<Spinner> vel came down and it was over. It had been a farce. A bad
dream. They'd kept thinking they'd wake up. They kept thinking someone
would stop it. They kept expecting their world would protest. Perhaps
it had. Or perhaps seven hundred nine people were too few for Madras to
bother with. Seven hundred nine and one trial and one verdict. Guilty.
Guilty of being in the wrong place at the right time. Guilty of being
on a ship that had needed emergency repair. Guilty of asking for help.
Guilty of asking the Yano to aid them. The charge was trespass. They
hadn't even set foot on the world until the armed guards herded them
into a shuttle, then transports and from those into a cage.
<Spinner> I suddenly realized there were more they'ds in there than
there should be, but not till after I thought. I think I changed that.
<coyote> I wanna live in canada
<Chipmonk> Sounds like Cubans in a leaky boat being picked up by the
coast guard.
<Spinner> Very good, Chip
<coyote> thats pritty much my life story so far
<Chipmonk> The second version sounds better.
<Casey> Coyote, do you have an opening paragraph you'd like to risk
here?
<Spinner> yeah, this is the one in the finished book. :) the other was
a copy out of my files.
<Casey> See, you can't slide drafts past us!
<coyote> um ahh ... ; )
<Casey> We caught you.
<Chipmonk> Hee hee.
<shorty103> did I miss something here? I feel like I lost part of the
conversation. I guess I'm not paying attention again
<Spinner> heehee. I went back and looked at the date and said "Oops!"
<Chipmonk> Go stand in the corner, Rose .
<shorty103> okay! <sigh>
<Casey> Just ask Kathy to make room for you. I'm sure she'll be so
kind.
<Casey> Coyote, it's not mandatory. We've already gone past our usual
ending time, but I'm not going to stop if people want to continue.
<Spinner> Rose, this story is the one that teaches a moral. It's about
prejudice.
<Chipmonk> I let Kathy out.
<coyote> well, I guess so , if its ok?
<kissfan> HEHEE
<Casey> Sure!
<coyote> what do I do just copy the 1st para. and paste it here?
<Casey> Yes.
<shorty103> okay Spinner, I just got lost in the many voices that were
speaking and I thought I had missed something
<Chipmonk> Okay you can come out.
<Casey> Odds are, you won't be able to read it once it's pasted, but we
will be able to.
<shorty103> thank you Chip.
<Spinner> I can always read what I paste. why can't anyone else?
<kissfan> so can I
<shorty103> I don't know how, so that is not a problem at my end
<Chipmonk> I can to, usually. Maybe it depends on the length?
<Casey> Sometimes I can (if I'm copying it from my WP), most times I
can't if I'm transferring it from the chat screen.
<Spinner> Do you paste into the chat screen or into your typing bar.
<Casey> Into the typing bar.
<Chipmonk> Owwwww woooowwww wwwwoooowww! (Calling Coyote)
<Spinner> I paste into the typing bar and then hit enter.
<kissfan> so do I
<coyote> A great dark sea of stone, underneath a black sky of no stars,
an aparent void. As far as the eye could see this was the landscape. The
ground jutted from the horizontal plane in every direction, sharp
angular cliffs and canyons laced the earth. Here and there were unusual
coral looking growths, some small some large. And if one looked very
hard they
<coyote> would see a managerie of invertibrates existing within and
among the rocks. Although the larger fauna would usualy go about unseen
to most. To the untrained eye, a rocky desert of perpetual night. But
this desert like most others was actually filled with life. To the few
human beings that existed hidden in thier laboratorys, this was a huge
zoo, teaming with life the likes of wich man kind has never before
known.
<Chipmonk> Not a place I'd want to visit, Coyote.
<coyote> hehe good
<Chipmonk> Intimidating landscape.
<kissfan> yes very
<Chipmonk> Discordant as in music.
<Casey> I wondered about the invertibrates existing within and among the
rocks. Are some of those fossils?
<coyote> whats discordant???
<Chipmonk> Discordant as in things jutting out all over.
<coyote> ok cool
<Spinner> missing commas make it read without emotive pauses.
<Chipmonk> I think you could shorten up onsome of the sentences.
<Casey> I would omit "But this desert like most others was actually
filled with life" since the next sentence says the same thing with more
punch.
<coyote> yes i have a run on problem
<Spinner> Try it this way, Coyote dis chord ant.
<coyote> right : )
<Chipmonk> I'd take out huge zoo too, since zoo implies captured and
controlled.
<coyote> ahh but they are
<Casey> To the few humans hidden in their laboratories, this was a zoo
teaming with life, the likes of which few had seen.
<Chipmonk> Oh it is a zoo, or seems like a zoo?
<coyote> well its a zoo pritty much, an artificial recreation of thier
natural environ
<Spinner> In general, one wouldn't start with a description, but this
one is odd enough to keep one reading.
<Chipmonk> How about...For the few humans, then?
<Spinner> Oh, beneath, not underneath.
<Spinner> Or below, instead
<Chipmonk> and few others had seen. The scientists have seen it I
suspect--lots.
<Spinner> huh, uh, chip. to is the appropriate.
<Chipmonk> No, I'm gonna have blue blotchy nightmares!
<Casey> You're going to have a variety of interesting nightmares
tonight, Chip.
<Spinner> LOL
<Chipmonk> Yep.
<shorty103> so this is very interesting, I just wish I know more about
editing and such, I'm not being very much help here
<Chipmonk> Well, watch then and learn.
<shorty103> I am
<coyote> you guys ever see tim burtons ' mars atacks'?
<Spinner> heehee, my chacter is going to be sealed in a pit in the heart
of a mountin with a fungus that makes oxygen and gives off light his
only company
<Spinner> Yes.
<Casey> No
<shorty103> no
<coyote> its on tv, pirtty neat movie, pritty wierd
<Chipmonk> Yes. We come in peace, you end up in pieces.
<shorty103> lol chip
<Casey> he he!
<Chipmonk> Fungus is pretty boring company.
<coyote> at at yat at (thats how they talk"
<Spinner> Yep, that's the one, Chip. It was MADE to be bad. and it's
good bad.
<coyote> but fungus that give off oxygen and light is neat
<Chipmonk> Yep, I enjoyed it. Especially Jack Nicholson and the granny.

<Spinner> the talking heads cliche is... something. I'm not sure what,
but i crack up every time she wags her tail.
<coyote> i like jack N he's cool
<coyote> ever see the shinning?
<Spinner> Nope.
<Chipmonk> He was the only good part in that.
<coyote> oooh its scaaarryyy
<Chipmonk> Are we done critting?
<Spinner> you want to throw up my last one as a very different action
feel?
<Casey> Sure. One sec.
<Chipmonk> No! Casey, don't throw up!
<Casey> Life had suddenly gotten complicated. Survival was no longer
probable. He needed to think and move fast and all he could think about
was how much moving hurt. He didn't know where he was, but he knew
where he was. He was deep in the Starscrape mountains and summer would
be gone before he could find a way through them. He rolled over and
looked at the sky. It was a few seconds before he could see anything
else. He had to lift his head and that took strength. He had to build
it first.
<Spinner> I thought about that when I looked at it Chip.
<Casey> That post is as much throwing up as I'm going to do tonight.
<coyote> hehe, throwup
<coyote> thats funny
<Casey> (Which is not a reflection on the work itself!!)
<Spinner> We spent quite awhile discussing barfing last night in Rebel
Writers, coyote.
<Chipmonk> Lol!
<coyote> hey i really like this one
<Casey> Is he building his head in the last sentence?
<coyote> i wrote a rather similar action intro a while back
<Chipmonk> No strength.
<Casey> Ahhh! Somehow that went completely over my head.
<Chipmonk> I like the Starscrape Mountains.
<shorty103> I can see by tonight discussion, I have a long way to go
within my own writing
<Chipmonk> Good name. Very visual.
<Spinner> thanks, the other mountain chain on the world is the
Skyfingers.
<Chipmonk> That's good too.
<Casey> I like that, too.
<Chipmonk> Very pointy.
<Chipmonk> Unlike the Grand Tetons.
<Spinner> this is a first draft with no revision so far. the piece is
titled Steel blade.
<coyote> its not unusual to be loved by anyone
<Chipmonk> He didn't know where he was, but he knew where he was? Am I
seeing that right?
<coyote> i like the title
<Spinner> exactly.
<coyote> he knew he was in the mountains but not where in the mountains
<Casey> I was just rereading that myself.
<shorty103> now are you trying to sing, your way off key! coyote
<coyote> hehe
<Spinner> It's intended to give the 'lost in this place' feel.
<coyote> i feel like that in day to day life
<shorty103> I'm lost in real time, the heck with imaginary time. LOL
<Spinner> ever gotten lost in a big city? You know you're in the city,
but not where?
<Casey> Heck, I've even gotten lost in a small city.
<coyote> hey what happened to him?
<shorty103> yes, more so when you have to think if your going East,
West, North or South within a city
<Casey> I think Spinner's hooked someone!
<Spinner> It takes him three years to get home, three chapters
<shorty103> Wow! spinner, that's a long time, but when you really look
at it, it's not that long.
<Spinner> His name is Harmon Vanity and it all began with a debate title
he won.
<coyote> ahh, but why is he hurt?
<Casey> Is the last name significant?
<Spinner> someone wasn't happy he won it.
<shorty103> Casey, How do tame a wild kitten that's into everything.
<coyote> ooo i like
<shorty103> Midnight is trying to get my attention, but it's not working
that well
<coyote> me too shorty
<Spinner> In some ways yes. he's an upper middle class college student
and he's going to have to prove the premise of the debate to survive.
<Casey> I don't think you need to tame the kitten as much as discipline
it.
<Chipmonk> That's intriguing.
<coyote> i once had a kitten
<Chipmonk> Get a water pistol.
<Chipmonk> What was the debate.
<Spinner> Yep. a water pistol is the great cat training aid.
<coyote> but I've heard that too (water pistol)
<Spinner> what is the single most valuable item a trooper fighting on
another world should carry. he said a steel blade.
<Casey> Ahhh. Good one, Spinner.
<coyote> thats good
<Chipmonk> That's interesting.
<Spinner> Start a fire, make a spear, build a shelter, skin and gut an
animal.
<Casey> So they dropped him in the middle of nowhere with only a steel
blade.
<coyote> i think some oxigen producing fungus would be a close runner up

<Spinner> Shoved up his ass, but at least it was in a sheathe.
<Casey> lol, coyote.
<coyote> ; )
<coyote> that might chafe
<Spinner> he laughed at himself for wishing it was bigger, considering
where it had been.
<Chipmonk> Lol!
<coyote> haha
<Chipmonk> 101 uses for a steel blade.
<coyote> but hair shaving
<Spinner> you'll find a lot of 'figure out how it could be done with the
tools at hand' in my books.
<Chipmonk> Toilet paper is not one of them.
<Spinner> LOL
<coyote> i like that spinner
<Chipmonk> yes.
<Chipmonk> Guess what!
<coyote> what!!!
<Casey> What?
<Chipmonk> I sent out a query letter!!!
<Spinner> in one of them, i designed a wagon that unfolds into a theater
with seating for sixty.
<Casey> Yay!
<coyote> whats that????? im dumb sorry
<Casey> Hard on the wheels, isn't it, spinner?
<Chipmonk> With lots of changes to the one you saw, Spinner.
<Spinner> interesting query letter. Hope it gets her the response it
should.
<Spinner> i figured you'd do a couple more rewrites.
<Chipmonk> They had an exact formula for what they wanted which is
unusual.
<coyote> hey whats a querry letter???
<Spinner> Query is qestion. the question is, want to see my manuscript,
so it has to be descried in interesting fashion.
<coyote> ahh, how does this go out? thru icq? email?
<Chipmonk> What you write to publishers and agents to ask if they want
to see your work.
<Spinner> It's pulled by six big horses, basically Clydesdales.
<Casey> Normally, through snail mail.
<coyote> ok i get it, thanks!
<Chipmonk> Uh, how is it sent out? It's pulled by six big horses.
<Chipmonk> This query was sent email and they already confirmed receipt
which is nice.
<Spinner> i've got a group of books that read more like fantasy than
science fiction, but the premise is each world is a part of an
experiment conducted by aliens on humans. they don't remember they came
from here and each has some imposed limit on technology.
<coyote> that sounds cool spin
<Spinner> i'm having fun with it.
<Spinner> the first should be done soon.
<Casey> Let us know when they reply, Chip.
<Spinner> Sailing ships and nuclear physics studied by candlelight in
this one.
<shorty103> Wow!
<Spinner> Lots of fun playing with the geography and currents of the
oceans.
<Spinner> definitely, Chip.
<Casey> interesting contrast: candlelight and nuclear physics.
<Spinner> this is the only one the humans know they came from earth. it
sets up the circumstances for the rest.
<coyote> that's the only way any descent nuclear physicist studies, not
too many people know that
<Chipmonk> I will most likely get rejected. They only take about 1% of
submissions, but it was such a helpful site. I'll post it on the
message board.
<Spinner> they're beginning to adapt out of the 'mental chains' and one
sees they're there.
<shorty103> good luck chip
<coyote> how are the restraints implemented on these people?
<Spinner> it's a device. it holds them to a policy of
non-industrialization on the world.
<coyote> a physical device or like a social device?
<Spinner> but they figure out how it's being powered. they're on their
way to drain a lake.
<Spinner> a physical device.
<coyote> thats very groovy spinner
<coyote> shagadelic baby
<Chipmonk> Do you like puzzles, Spinner?
<Spinner> Mental puzzles, yes.
<Chipmonk> It shows. sounds like you have fun figuring out the puzzles
you create for your characters.
<coyote> excellent observation
<Spinner> several of my books are about 250,000 and Paradox is 1.14
million, rose, but it's divided into ten books.
<shorty103> okay, that would be one big book if it wasn't
<Spinner> Heehee, i've printed it out and bound it as one before.
<Chipmonk> Our own James Mitchener.
<shorty103> I hope you had strong arms for that one spinner
<Spinner> It's about the size of the Oxford dictionary
<coyote> how does it feel to know you created something like that?
<Spinner> Actually, my books are REALLY fast-paced, they just have...
big plots.
<Chipmonk> Speaking of dictionaries there's a new international English
dictionary out.
<coyote> its a tool for mind control
<Spinner> that's an interesting idea, Chip.
<Casey> Does that mean that British and Australian English are
incorporated with American English?
<Chipmonk> It would help us understand Sea Witch!
<Chipmonk> Yes including colloquialisms.
<shorty103> how is sea witch these days
<Casey> As blood-thirsty and violent as ever.
<Casey> (i.e., she's doing well)
<Chipmonk> Yup!
<shorty103> okay, thought I'd ask
<Spinner> she's the one who got us on the subject of throwing up last
night.
<Chipmonk> And still eating srummie bickies and Bounty bars.
<shorty103> Oh no!, but it does sound like her
<coyote> ahh the old puke conversation
<Casey> She's cut back on the scrummie biccies. She's on a diet.
<Chipmonk> Are we all about cabbaged?
<crip> pardon my ignorance but what's a query letter?
<Casey> An inquiry to a publisher, laying out a story idea and asking if
they'd be interested in reading it.
<crip> ahhh i see
<Chipmonk> http://www.litopia.com/
<Chipmonk> He has some good advice for writers on his site.
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