CHAT ARCHIVE - 9-18-99, Voice

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Sep 19 01:25:56 1999

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<shorty103> so tonight's topic is voice?
<kissfan> yep
<shorty103> that should be interesting, since I am still trying to find
mine
<Casey> Everyone, I sent you an email that I'll be referring to in
tonight's discussion, so check your mail.
<Chipmonk> You agonna learn us howda talk good, Casey?
<Casey> Yup, yup, Chippy-poo.
<shorty103> so how loud do you want the volume on the voice machine?
<Casey> You have a voice machine? Maybe you should teach tonight's lesson,
Rose.
<shorty103> no, joking
<Casey> Everyone who thinks Rose should teach tonight's class, raise her
hand.
<shorty103> not!
<kissfan> LOL
<Chipmonk> I hain't learnin nothin from no galdarn machine, ya'll.
<kissfan> I ain't neither
<Casey> Okay, tonight's grammar lesson addresses conjunctive adverbs and
their punctuation.
<Casey> We know the term "conjunction" from an earlier class--those 7
little words that join clauses and such.
<Casey> (Chip, I'm being distracted--and laughing over--your comments.)
<Chipmonk> Sorry. I'll be good. Card's "ya'll" got to me.
<Casey> So, we automatically know that conjunctive adverbs are going to
join two somethings together. In this case, two clauses.
<shorty103> Casey, do you think the book " the Artist way will help any
with all that I learned from you
<Casey> I don't know that book, Rose, but reading anything can't hurt.
<shorty103> true, it was a gift
<Casey> conjunctive adverbs are words such as however, therefore,
nevertheless, moreover, consequently, furthermore, likewise.
<Casey> (Not a comprehensive list.)
<Casey> They usually join two independent clauses and are set off with
punctuation. A semicolon before and a comma following.
<Casey> Do we know what independent clauses are?
<shorty103> no, not really
<Casey> Independent clauses are phrases that actually could be complete
sentences if we wanted to end them with a period.
<Casey> We will be going to the store, is an independent clause.
<Casey> We will be going to the store; however, we won't go until tomorrow.
<shorty103> okay
<shorty103> understanding now
<kissfan> ok I knew that just couldn't think HEHEE
<Casey> (forgive my bad grammar in that example! That's what happens when
I make them up on the spur of the moment.)
<shorty103> me too,
<Chipmonk> (I'm being good.)
<Casey> Chip's being very good.
<shorty103> yes
<Casey> Each of you make up an example.
<shorty103> I will be glad to get all my research done; however it is going
to take forever to go through.
<Casey> Good sentence, Rose. Just remember to put a comma after the
"however."
<shorty103> okay, sorry
<shorty103> but statement is true, I can't wait until my research material
is all here
<Chipmonk> Chipmonk was a naughty rodent; consequently, she had to stand in
the wastebasket where she couldn't see the computer screen or reach the
keyboard.
<Casey> Kathy's ignoring the assignment. We'll put her in the wastebasket,
too, so Chip has company.
<shorty103> LOL
<Chipmonk> She can hold me up so I can see better.
<kissfan> Lmy mind is much tonight; however, I will do my best
<kissfan> that was supposed to be My mind is mush; however, I will do my
best
<Chipmonk> period. Kissfan missed a period!
<kissfan> darn it I left out a word HEHEE
<kissfan> and a lousy word !!!
<kissfan> told you that my mind is mush HEHEE
<Casey> Forging ahead. If the conjunctive adverb does not begin the second
clause, a semicolon still separates the two clauses, but the conjunctive
adverb is set off by commas.
<shorty103> now you have done lost me!
<Casey> Example: (I won't make you come up with one) Americans spend
millions of dollars for road-building; our roads, however, are rapidly
deteriorating.
<shorty103> thank you and now understand
<kissfan> ok cool
<Casey> Now you're pros when it comes to conjunctive adverbs; therefore, we
can move on to Voice.
<Casey> (I'll stop being obnoxious now. Maybe.)
<Chipmonk> Do re me fa so la te dooooooooo!
<shorty103> so how would you do this "Be ye also ready" In memory of those
who gave their live, so we the world, remember the coal miners of Nova
Scotia.
<shorty103> any thoughts
<Casey> I'd add an "s" to "live" for starters.
<kissfan> was going to say that HEHEE
<shorty103> yes, I knew I forgotten something in there
<Casey> "Be ye also ready."
<Casey> (Is this a book dedication?)
<Casey> (This book written) in memory of those who gave their lives so that
we, the world, will remember the coal miners of Nova Scotia.
<shorty103> yes, yes, that term was used at a memorial for the miners at
the last mining accident at Westray mine claiming 26 lives
<shorty103> okay I see, now, that happened in 1992
<shorty103> that sound much better, but yet I would like to use this quote
<kissfan> could you put it at the end?
<shorty103> yes that is true
<Casey> I changed verb tense from "gave" (past tense) to future "will"
<Chipmonk> That would work.
<shorty103> yes it would, and thank you
<Casey> That disturbs my verb sense.
<shorty103> why?
<Casey> Because tense is supposed to remain consistent.
<Casey> "would" is past tense, instead of "will," but it subtly changes
the thrust of what you're saying. But then, you're going from the past and
looking toward the future.
<shorty103> I see, so what do think it should be, I do understand, I want
it to be a powerful pull in, but I also want them to continue to read to
find out what's in the rest of the book
<Casey> Chip, do you know how acceptable such a verb tense change is?
<Casey> I suppose it's not terribly different from changing point of view
within a sentence.
<Chipmonk> Actually, it sounds like they did it intentionally.
<shorty103> okay what about this, "Be ye also ready " at the very top.
Then underneath it put, " In memory of those who gave their lives, so we,
the world, remember the coal miners of Nova Scotia"
<shorty103> leaving out will or would
<Casey> You can double check yourself by leaving out the parenthetical
statement, "the world."
<Chipmonk> This book was written so that we, the world, will remember...
<Casey> It's more powerful with will left in.
<shorty103> okay, yes chip, I do want the world to know about this little
town that was forgotten
<Chipmonk> The original sounds like the coal miners said, lets give our
lives so the world will remember coal miners.
<shorty103> everyone knows of the Springhill disaster in Nova Scotia, well,
this town was not that far away
<Chipmonk> The book was written so people will remember. The coal miners
didn't die so people would remember.
<shorty103> no that wasn't my intent chip, I want to remember all the coal
miners that did give their lives so we, the world could keep warm because
of their efforts
<shorty103> did I open a hornets nest or what!, sorry Casey
<kissfan> Ya Chip it did sound like that.
<shorty103> I did it again!
<Casey> This is editing in action, Rose. It's what you need to consider
when you reread and rework what you write.
<Casey> It's not wasted effort here.
<shorty103> okay, and thanks
<Casey> Hopefully, it helps you understand the process.
<Chipmonk> Do you see what I mean, Rose?
<shorty103> yes, it does help a lot
<kissfan> sometimes I have rewritten and reread paragraphs over and over to
get them to sound right and then they still need work.
<shorty103> in a way chip, but still a little foggy here and there
<Chipmonk> Compare:
<Chipmonk> The miners who died so the world would remember the miners.
<Chipmonk> The book was written so the world will remember the miners who
died.
<shorty103> In memory of those fallen miners, who gave of themselve, we
will remember.
<shorty103> " Be ye also ready"
<Casey> I'm really confused by what you just wrote, Rose.
<kissfan> ya me too
<shorty103> well, I just thought I would shorten it, and say, well, I'm
lost now too!
<Casey> Don't try to shorten something so much that it doesn't say
anything. Use the number of words you need to say what you mean clearly.
<kissfan> the way that you had it in the beginning sounded like the miners
died on purpose so that we would remember.
<shorty103> okay, I hear, and I'm thinking of how to make it sound better
<Casey> That's why I asked whether this was a book dedication and added
"This book," to separate the dying from the memory.
<kissfan> yes I know
<kissfan> do you understand now, Rose?
<Casey> When you change thoughts (even within the same sentence), remember
to name the subject you're changing to.
<Chipmonk> Did what I said make sense or am I just confusing the issue?
<shorty103> yes I want it to be a dedication to those miners who gave their
lives in their job as miners
<Casey> You said it very clearly just now!
<kissfan> It made since to me, Chip.
<shorty103> yes chip it did, and I DID Casey
<kissfan> yes you did, Rose
<kissfan> ok now stop and look at what you just wrote, Rose.
<shorty103> okay, I just did, and it does make more sense that what wrote
before
<Chipmonk> Remember, Rose, when someone reads your story, you can't be
there to explain what you mean. You have to be very, very clear.
<Casey> Chip's right.
<Casey> Until you're very, very comfortable with grammar and the creation
of complex sentences, stick with more straight-forward sentence
constructions. That might help, too.
<Chipmonk> SAy what you mean and mean what you say,my dear said ? to Alice.

<shorty103> This book is dedicated to those who's job was within the mines.

<Casey> whose job was working in the mines.
<Chipmonk> I liked who lost their lives in the Coal Mines of Nova Scotia.
<shorty103> I know, okay , I did it again, I'm bound to get it right
sometime in the next century
<Casey> I like that part, too.
<kissfan> so did I, Chip
<Casey> It's more specific and vivid.
<kissfan> It explains the who and the where.
<Chipmonk> And the why they deserve a book.
<kissfan> yep
<shorty103> brb, going to print out those words so I can think better,
<Chipmonk> I was born a coal miner'sdaughter.
<shorty103> okay, I'm waiting for the printer to finish
<Chipmonk> In a cabin dumdedum in Butcher Holler.
<Casey> Silly Chip! You were born a chipmonk.
<kissfan> HEHEE
<shorty103> LOL
<Chipmonk> I'm singing!
<Casey> I figured that out on the second line.
<Goshwin> Born as flea fodder
<Casey> I like the dumdedum part.
<Chipmonk> Loretta Lynn.
<shorty103> that's what you call it, I thought you were telling me
something that I should already have known
<Casey> You're just readying your voice for tonight's topic.
<kissfan> so did I Casey
<Chipmonk> Voice! Voce!
<Casey> Okay, on to Voice.
<Casey> Chip's been demonstrating our topic all night long, actually.
<shorty103> thanks folks for you help
<kissfan> LAA LA LA LA
<Casey> You're welcome, Rose.
<Goshwin> *Burp*
<shorty103> Gosh, how rude! excuse your self
<Casey> Voice, in speech, is the tone, inflection, and even the vocabulary
you use with different people.
<Chipmonk> LAA la la la Burp Bethoven's 5th?
<Casey> lol!
<Goshwin> DA DA DA *BURP*
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> You don't talk to your children the same way you speak to your
boss.
<shorty103> no!
<Chipmonk> (Chip slinks back to waste basket.)
<kissfan> hope not
<Casey> You probably have a telephone voice, a company voice, an annoying
sales person voice.
<Goshwin> Who?
<Casey> (How you address annoying or incompetent sales people.)
<Chipmonk> Yelling at the dog voice.
<Goshwin> Hello.. *Hyuck* (my voice)
<Casey> Each voice has its own vocabulary, sentence structure, diction, and
a pattern of speech habitual for that relationship.
<shorty103> feeling silly or shy voice.
<Casey> Exactly. Y'all have the idea.
<kissfan> yep we do
<Casey> (That's my Southern dialect coming through.)
<kissfan> I noticed HEHEE
<Casey> In the same way, we write differently depending upon what we're
writing.
<Chipmonk> Carry me back to ol' Virginny! Oops (paws over mouth)
<Casey> We don't write a business letter using the same tone and vocabulary
that we would use to write to our best friend.
<shorty103> no! well, I hope not anyway
<Casey> A story's voice usually conveys the "voice" of our protagonist.
<Casey> If anyone's read Chip's Help Wanted on her web site, you know
exactly what I'm talking about.
<shorty103> I have no idea where her web site is
<Casey> You get an instant feel for the educational level, outlook, and
dialect of the protagonist, Steve. Because the story is told first-person,
and Steve's vocabulary is the one used to tell his story.
<Casey> That's not only Steve's voice, but the voice of the story as well.
<Chipmonk> Steve: Hey, you makin funa me?
<Casey> When do voices change within a story?
<shorty103> that is one thing that I could consider, telling it in first
person, from someone point of view, BUT no mine of course,
<kissfan> when person is angry
<kissfan> or confused
<shorty103> sad, confused
<Casey> Kissfan's going in the right direction: with dialogue.
<kissfan> yep
<Casey> Senator George Turnbill won't speak the same way Steve does (unless
you want to show him "talking down" to a high school dropout.)
<shorty103> may I ask a question Casey
<Chipmonk> Steve: I graduated! With a C average too!
<Casey> Used in such a way, voice can become a useful tool in conveying
information about a character without simply stating such a fact about him.
<shorty103> I was wondering, if I wrote this story in first person, using
flashbacks would be okay
<Casey> Flashbacks should be used as infrequently as possible. They
disrupt the flow of the story and are difficult to work in seamlessly.
<Chipmonk> First person only looks easy.
<kissfan> I wouldn't use too many flashbacks
<shorty103> okay, I am trying to figure that part out right now
<kissfan> oops you already said that, Casey HEHEE
<shorty103> I thought I would ask anyway
<Casey> A rule that I've heard before is to use no more than 1 flashback
for a normal sized book, and no more than 2 for a very long one.
<shorty103> understood
<kissfan> I think Zen talked about that at a workshop didn't he?
<Casey> Yes, he did.
<Chipmonk> I think so.
<shorty103> I don't remember
<shorty103> leave it to me to be the old ball
<Chipmonk> Teacher?
<Casey> First person is difficult because you can't include more
information than the character himself is privy to.
<kissfan> Ya and it made me go back and make sure that I didn't have too
many in my book HEHEE
<Casey> Yes, Chip?
<shorty103> okay, and understand
<Chipmonk> Change voice between narrator and characters in 3rd person?
<Casey> I'm not sure I understand your question, Chip.
<Chipmonk> Does the narrator have a voice in 3rd person?
<Casey> Yes, he or she does.
<Casey> Usually, the narrator's voice is the protagonist's voice.
<shorty103> okay, I see, so everyone including the narrator has a voice
within each story
<Casey> Steve's dialogue is so unique, that it would be shocking if the
narrative was written in a distinctly different (say, well-educated) voice.
<Chipmonk> Or Huck Finn's.
<Chipmonk> Some times isn't the narrator someone telling the protags story?

<Casey> Yes, Chip. Fried Green Tomatoes is a narrator telling the two
protags' story.
<shorty103> yes, that was a unique voice as well chip
<Chipmonk> Thanks Casey, I couldn't think of an example.
<kissfan> or even pip's voice in great expectations
<shorty103> yes, that 's a good one too kissfan
<Casey> Some choices for voice are slangy, formal, relaxed, with or without
profanity . . . basically, any choice we have in our own speaking.
<kissfan> even though my caps didn't work. (must clean keyboard) and learn
to spell
<Casey> And as tension in the story rises, tension in the voice can also
change: shorter sentences, vocabulary conveying tension.
<shorty103> so we could use our own way of speaking as use it as our
characters
<kissfan> My characters take a life of their own, Rose
<Casey> Probably, none of us writes exactly like we speak, Rose. Each of
our styles is uniquely different.
<shorty103> yes, I do know that, but it would be a start for someone like
me
<Casey> I suspect that most of us (if not all of us) began writing the way
we speak. That's natural. Then we learn grammar, and later we learn
techniques unique to writing.
<shorty103> to get used to it, and then find my characters voices may come
out, while I am trying to use my own way of speaking
<Casey> For an exercise, everyone write a couple sentences depicting a
whining child. (Kathy will ace this one!)
<kissfan> HEHEE
<Chipmonk> She's an expert.
<Casey> I don't wanna. Joey's mom doesn't make him eat broccoli. Why do I
have to?
<Chipmonk> Do I hafta! I don't wanna and you can't make me! You're not
the boss of me!
<shorty103> Ma, do I have to! I din't do it!
<kissfan> Why do I always have to pick up the living room? I didn't make
the mess, he did.
<Chipmonk> That's weird!
<shorty103> what?
<Chipmonk> We all did "Do I have to".
<Casey> I knew Kathy would get the realism right!
<shorty103> I guess that is the mood we're in, we don't want to things, but
we just did! LOL
<kissfan> I have a good one to go by I hear it every day HEHEE
<Casey> Now, write a couple sentences depicting a judge's final statements
to a couple of litigants.
<Chipmonk> I wanna pet the chipmonk! Catch it so I can pet it! But I want
to!!
<kissfan> HEHEE
<Chipmonk> (Shiver)
<Casey> The chipmonk's in the trash can. Just watch that it doesn't bit
you.
<shorty103> LOL
<Chipmonk> No petting!!
<Chipmonk> It's my pet peeve!!
<shorty103> what is litigants? just so I can get it right
<Casey> ha ha, Chip!
<Goshwin> might get fleas
<Chipmonk> Humph!
<Casey> It's the two people who are disputing something.
<shorty103> Chip! I told you to keep your fleas to yourself! But you didn't
listen! Now I'm scratching
<shorty103> okay, thanks Casey
<Goshwin> *scritch scritch*
<Casey> Both parties have demonstrated their intelligence and their concern
for the sake of the child, but there are other factors that must be
considered. The child is 17 and has expressed a desire to live with his
father, so I'm awarding custody to Mr. Ashbury.
<Chipmonk> Mr. Smith, in all my years on this bench, I have never had a
defendant come before me who displayed such a lack of respect for the rules
of jurisprudence, nor such recalcitrance, therefore I am recommending the
harshest punishment that the statutes of this state will allow!
<Casey> Wow! Chip got a fiesty one!
<shorty103> Herb McDonald, do you understand that you could be sent to
jail. Your only 16!
<shorty103> this is all I could come up with at the moment Casey
<Casey> That's fine, Rose. It didn't have to be complicated.
<kissfan> I see that the one thing that can't be agreed upon here is who
gets the hutch. you, Mrs. Jones want it to be able to give it to your
daughter, but since the daughter lives with the father then it shouldn't
matter who gives it to her; therefore the hutch stays in the home with Mr
jones for the daughter.
<Chipmonk> Who gets the rabbits?
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> This might be the other kind of hutch, Chip. The one without
rabbits.
<Chipmonk> Oh!
<kissfan> yep
<shorty103> the one you put dishes in
<Casey> Although, it could be filled with porcelain rabbits.
<shorty103> true
<kissfan> true Casey
<Casey> So, Kathy: Who gets the rabbits?
<Chipmonk> Humans are weird!
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> Don't know LOL
<Chipmonk> So, humans, what's the difference between whiny kids and judges?

<shorty103> voice!
<Casey> Vocabulary is most obvious.
<kissfan> Judges don't whine
<Chipmonk> Lol
<Casey> Judges just don't whine in front of the litigants.
<kissfan> HEHEE ya only to their wives or husbands.
<Casey> Even sentence length increased with the judges.
<kissfan> yes very true
<Chipmonk> Whiny kids say, do I hafta and judges say you hafta or else?
<kissfan> HEHEE, Chip
<Casey> Yep. Then the litigants get to whine.
<kissfan> and most do.
<Chipmonk> Definitely an air of authority with the judges.
<shorty103> Casey, can I share something, I would like an opinion on this,
that is, if it's okay, I know you don't going off topic
<Casey> figures of speech ("I'm as depressed as a chipmunk in a fox's
mouth."), regional dialects (green beans versus snaps), attitude (cynical,
flippant, wondering, cold, loving, nostalgic, diplomatic, etc.), and level
(crude, slangy, informal, formal, elevated--exalted or joyful, and
magisterial--authoritative) all contribute to the establishment of a
specific voice as well.
<Casey> Can you wait until I get through this next section, Rose?
<shorty103> yes, and thank you
<Casey> Thanks.
<Casey> Person and voice can also change when you have a character telling
a story within your story.
<shorty103> interesting
<Casey> I sent you the little chart on Person that Orson Scott Card did to
help clarify "person" for anyone who might be uncertain about that.
<shorty103> I really didn't look at it, but I will check after
<Casey> The most common Person used in fiction is either first person
singular or third person.
<Casey> When you start telling a story in something other than one of
those, the uniqueness of the writing becomes a part of the story and can
distract a reader from the story you're telling.
<shorty103> that is what I have read to about first person and or third
person being the most common
<Casey> Knowing how other "persons" are used, however, can lend
authenticity to your writing.
<shorty103> yes, I am now discovering that
<Casey> For instance, every recipe written is written in second person.
<Casey> The "you" part of the instructions are understood.
<Casey> (You) beat the margarine and sugar until smooth.
<kissfan> yes very true
<shorty103> yes
<Casey> The Ten Commandments are also written in Second person.
<Casey> "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife."
<Casey> The author's choice of which person to use comes down to what you
want to achieve. What effect, that is.
<Casey> First person tells what I saw, did, and what happened to me. The
narrator is usually a character who takes part in the story being told.
Which necessarily limits what can be told.
<shorty103> understood
<Casey> The character can only learn what he doesn't know from another
character or by observing and deducting information from what he witnesses.
<Casey> Third person can be a character telling the story who did not have
anything directly to do with what happened in the story.
<Casey> If he is a character telling the story, normally he has to survive
the events of the story. (Otherwise, how is he able to tell it?)
<Chipmonk> From his death bed.
<Casey> That would still be surviving the events, at least long enough to
tell about them.
<Chipmonk> True.
<Casey> The narrator in 3rd person doesn't have to be identified as a
character at all.
<shorty103> yes, becoming clearer in which person to use in telling my
story now
<Casey> Most stories are written in past tense. Present tense is used
mostly in nonfiction (how-to books, philosophy, theory; anything that
happens repeatedly, not just once.)
<Casey> I'm not going to get into moods. We'll discuss that another time.
We've already run into overtime. Any questions?
<shorty103> not at the moment
<kissfan> Nope mot me.
<shorty103> that's a good one kissfan
<Casey> I'd mot you if I knew what that was, KF!
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> LOL sorry about that one it was not
<Chipmonk> I was thinking about Ayn Rand's book Anthem, I think.
<Casey> What's that about?
<Casey> Or what's unique about Anthem?
<Chipmonk> Where people are all We.
<Chipmonk> First person plural.
<Casey> You can write addressing your reader (using "you"), but that calls
attention to the way in which the story was written and takes total focus
away from the story.
<Chipmonk> Can't remember if it was like that all the way through to the
end.
<Chipmonk> It was anti-communist/collective.
<Casey> I had an exercise using present tense that I was going to use
tonight, just for something odd to do.
<Chipmonk> Okay.
<Casey> If you're up for it, I'll still use it.
<shorty103> Hmmmmm, am I ready for this one, I don't know
<Chipmonk> I am.
<kissfan> go for it, Casey
<Chipmonk> Be brave, Rose.
<Casey> I'll give the first 3 sentences of a "story," and you folks give
the next couple of sentences.
<kissfan> ok sounds good to me
<shorty103> okay
<Casey> You have to write in the same tense as the beginning sentences.
<Casey> Go up the stairs. Pay no attention to the child shivering in the
dark corner on the first landing. Step over the vomit and don't put any
weight on the railing.
<Chipmonk> When you get to the second floor, you must be absolutely quiet.
Do you understand? Then go!
<kissfan> At the top of the stairs turn right and open the first door. Go
into the room and wait for me.
<shorty103> In the bedroom, pick up that suitcase. Watch out for the first
floor board, it is loose.
<Casey> Your key opens half the doors in this building, the others don't
lock. Take a deep breath before you open door number 24. The guy there's
been dead for three days.
<Chipmonk> Do not look at the child!! I warned you! Run!!
<Casey> Good going, guys!
<Casey> Chip, you're still making me laugh!
<shorty103> in a way, that wasn't that hard, but it made you think real
hard
<Chipmonk> Did you not see the eyes! The evil! That is no child!
<Casey> It makes you figure out how to get in descriptions while you're
telling your story.
<shorty103> yes, I see that.
<Chipmonk> Cuts down on dialogue.
<Casey> You weren't supposed to look at that child!
<kissfan> I like doing things like this. It makes me think quick
<shorty103> yes, I wish I could " think quick", but I am a slow poke when
it comes to things like this
<Casey> Don't encourage me, Kathy!
<kissfan> AWWWWWWWWW why not HEHEE
<Casey> You'll have classwork coming out of your ears if you're not
careful.
<kissfan> HEHEE
<shorty103> OH NO!
<shorty103> Casey, are sending out buffers of tonight?
<Casey> I send them to those who didn't make it tonight and ask pretty
please for them.
<Casey> Do you want a copy of the buffer?
<shorty103> may I mommy, please
<Casey> I'll be glad to, Rose.
<Casey> Rose, you had something to share?
<shorty103> it may take me a moment or two to type it out okay
<shorty103> Herb McDonald was considerable muscular then most men at the
mine. Six foot four, jet black hair, and eyes to match. When he looked at
you, you'd thought he'd cursed your soul into hell.
<shorty103> that is as far as I got
<Casey> his eyes match what? His height or his black hair?
<shorty103> yes, like I said, it needs work
<shorty103> his eye matched his hair color
<shorty103> dark as night
<Chipmonk> dark as the coal.
<shorty103> like mine, there so dark brown, there almost black looking
<Casey> That's better. eyes dark as night, although that's a cliche.
<shorty103> yes, I see that
<shorty103> dark as coal, is better
<shorty103> okay, what's next on the hit list
<Casey> you're making a comparison in the first sentence, so you have to
use the word "more." Herb McDonald was considerably more muscular than
(not then--than is always used when making comparisons) most men at the
mine.
<shorty103> okay
<Chipmonk> Is this in dialect?
<shorty103> understood, making notes
<Casey> Chip brings up a good point with her suggested change. You're
describing a coal mine in this book, so using coal-related references even
in the descriptions isn't a bad idea.
<shorty103> don't follow you what you mean, I thought I would describe him,
but I guess I didn't succeed
<Chipmonk> Who is talking here?
<shorty103> I guess I'm doing it in third person, and so I should after
tonight's lesson. I am still working things out chip
<shorty103> these are still thoughts and working out who's who, and who is
telling the story
<shorty103> I just wanted an opinion about it that's all
<shorty103> I have a long ways to go
<Casey> She's asking because your last sentence uses "you"--addressing the
reader.
<shorty103> okay,
<Casey> By doing that, there is some speaker who isn't Herb doing the
talking.
<shorty103> yes, I see what you mean Casey, and it is still early in the
process
<Chipmonk> If the narrator is a person who talks in the local dialect, you
could say "considerable more" and "you'd of thought", but if it is an
impersonal narrator, you would use more proper English.
<shorty103> okay,

<Goshwin> Unfortunately I am unusually tired... I think I am coming down
with the flu.... I should leave since I am not contributing
<shorty103> what about the sentence " when he looked at you, you'd thought
he'd cursed your soul into hell."
<shorty103> take care Gosh
<Casey> Oh, Gosh! Go get some sleep so you can get over the illness.
<Chipmonk> Nite Gosh
<kissfan> ya Gosh get some rest
<Casey> Take care of yourself.
<Goshwin> Yah and take my Vit C...
<Goshwin> Night then
<Chipmonk> Rose, I like your sentence, except "you'd thought".
<shorty103> okay, so I should leave that part out.
<Casey> As a test, write the sentence without using contractions and you'll
see what the problem is.
<Chipmonk> It should be either you'd of thought, or you would've thought,
or you'd a thought. Depending upon who is talking.
<shorty103> okay, now call me stupid, but what are contractions?
<Casey> you'd is the contraction of you would. Who's the contraction of
who is.
<Casey> you'd can also be, you had
<kissfan> words like shouldn't
<Casey> shouldn't = should not.
<shorty103> when he looked at you, he would cursed you soul into hell.
<Casey> Can you see where the problem is now?
<shorty103> sorry, I should have dropped the d in cursed
<Chipmonk> You are saying "You would thought". There's a word missing.
<Chipmonk> You can say , when he looked at you, you thought he was
cursing your soul too.
<Casey> That's one way to handle it, Rose, but that changes the tense of
cursed to present tense, which isn't what the rest of your sentence is
written in.
<Casey> (The rest of your paragraph, I meant.)
<shorty103> yes, I see
<Casey> would have thought would be correct, so if you reform the
contraction, it would read "you would've thought"
<shorty103> yes, that might work
<Chipmonk> So many options.
<kissfan> Ya there is.
<Chipmonk> You betcha!
<Casey> That's the joy and challenge of writing--making the decisions that
will achieve the effect you want.
<shorty103> yes, and their enough to drive you into next Sunday
<shorty103> Herb McDonald was considerable muscular more than most men at
the mine. Six foot four, jet black hair, and eyes like coal. When he looked
at you, you would've thought he had cursed your soul into hell.
<shorty103> how does that sound Casey
<Casey> That definitely improves the last sentence.
<kissfan> ya it sounds much better
<shorty103> making a note of it
<Chipmonk> Yup.
<shorty103> okay, thanks everyone
<Casey> In the first sentence, switch the order of muscular and more.
<shorty103> okay
<Casey> ly instead of le on considerable.
<Chipmonk> considerably more muscular.
<shorty103> okay, do you want me to type it out to see how it looks?
<Casey> To help in distinguishing when to use able and ably, remember that
able is pronounced "able-bodied men." That kind of able. When that
doesn't sound right, put ably.
<shorty103> okay
<Casey> You don't need to retype it, Rose.
<shorty103> Herb McDonald was considerably more muscular than most men at
the mine. When he looked at you, you would've thought he had cursed your
soul into hell.
<shorty103> too late
<shorty103> in a way I had to Casey, I needed to see it as well as type it
out so I know it worked
<Casey> If it helps you, then by all means, do it.
<Chipmonk> That's better.
<shorty103> much better in my eyes too!
<shorty103> thanks
<kissfan> yep much better
<Casey> Very good. Did you deliberately omit the description sentence?
<kissfan> ya I was wondering that too
<shorty103> what descriptive part
<shorty103> I just got lost
<Casey> The 6 foot, black eyes and hair part.
<shorty103> I didn't mean to
<shorty103> I will keep it in, but I just want to see the first and last
part of this paragraph
<Casey> Do you want to experiment with ways of working in the description
without making it a separate sentence?
<shorty103> yes
<Chipmonk> (shredding papers in the waste basket to make a little nest.)
<Casey> Want to make the first attempt?
<Chipmonk> (Rolling up in a ball.)
<Casey> Chip's about to fall asleep on us.
<shorty103> Oh NO!, well, I can understand, it is almost two am here
<kissfan> (places scrap piece of cloth over Chip)
<shorty103> I refuse to sing a lillaby to her, I might wake her up again
<Chipmonk> Snuffle, snort.
<Casey> At six foot four, Herb McDonald was . . . is one way to sneak in
the height description.
<shorty103> okay, that sounds good
<Casey> Someone else want to try with the eyes description?
<Chipmonk> Too sleepy. I think I'll say good night and take my leave.
<Casey> Understand, Chip. Goodnight!
<Chipmonk> See you next time.
<Casey> Or, Herb McDonald was six foot four and considerably more muscular
. . .
<Casey> The first way I wrote it implies that there's some correlation
between being 6' 4" and being muscular, which isn't necessarily true.
<shorty103> I like the first one Casey
<shorty103> okay
<shorty103> any ideas kissfan
<Casey> It depends upon what you want to say or imply, which one you use.
<shorty103> okay
<kissfan> working on something for the eyes hold on
<shorty103> okay
<Casey> Sometimes, you want to sacrifice poetic word flow for exact meaning
or clarity.
<Casey> Crip, you can play, too.
<crip> huh...wha
<shorty103> yes, and I was thinking, as a boy he did work in the mine, but
because he was so tall, he had no choice but to do another job outside the
mine
<crip> ok
<kissfan> his coal black eyes seemed to burn a hole into a person's soul
<Casey> A suggestion: name what job he did rather than make a general
statement "another job outside the mine."
<shorty103> recuiting
<shorty103> men and ponies
<Casey> Stating that gives us immediate information and makes the sentence
more interesting.
<shorty103> I don't know how to spell that word, but it's like scoting for
men and ponies
<kissfan> scouting?
<Casey> When he looked at you with those black eyes, . . . gets the info in
without changing the basic sentence structure or wording.
<kissfan> Ya true.
<Casey> recruiting men and ponies?
<shorty103> sorry, can't spell for beans, everything comes out sdrawkcab
<shorty103> yes
<kissfan> I think I am getting tired too
<Casey> It is late. I suspect it's time to give up and go to bed.
<shorty103> okay, thanks kissfan, you have been a big help
<Casey> Goodnight, Kathy.
<Casey> Thanks for all your contributions.
<kissfan> nite all and teews smaerd
<shorty103> LOL
<Casey> he he!
<Casey> Nite!
<crip> etin
<shorty103> what have I done, I have learn to read backwards now
<Casey> Everybody's weird tonight!
<crip> at least we're used to your weirdness
<shorty103> and there's no full moon, what happened
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