CHAT ARCHIVE - 1-16-00, Premise

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Started on Sun Jan 16 03:38:34  00

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<Casey> Tonight's grammar lesson addresses semicolons.  When to 
use them.
<Sea Witch> I thought the lesson was about premise
<Casey> The main topic is about premise.
<Casey> Okay.  Can anyone remember the 7 coordinating conjunctions from 
a past grammar session?
<Sea Witch> You mean the and, but thing?
<Casey> Yes, Witchie
<Sea Witch> No  <g>
<shorty103> No, really short memory  
<shorty103> I think I've been working too hard!  LOL 
<Casey> and, but, or, nor, for, yet, and so.
<Casey> I ask, because when you have two independent clauses put 
together without a coordinating conjunction, that's when you need to use 
a semicolon.
<kissfan> LOL my mind went blank  
<Sea Witch> I feel a semicolon gives an added emphasis to a sentence 
too.
<Casey> An independent clause is any group of words that could be a 
complete sentence.  
<shorty103>  this  ; is a semicolon? 
<Sea Witch> Yes Rose
<Casey> Yes, Rose.
<shorty103> okay, thanks, wasn't sure 
<Goshwin> (he he I had just read that bit in Strunk)
<Sea Witch> What's Strunk?
<Casey> The Elements of Style is the book he wrote with E. B. White.
<Casey> It's great for learning basic grammar.
<Sea Witch> Who? Strunk or Gosh?
<Goshwin> William Strunk jr ..Eb White.. the Element of Style
<Sea Witch> <g>
<Sea Witch> I got the Oxford Guide to English Grammar.  I never heard of 
no Strunk!
<kissfan> I have read it a while ago HEHEE 
<Goshwin> Got that.. Didn't like it... Never seemed to get to the 
point..
<Casey> To educate a man is to educate an individual; to educate a woman 
is to educate a family.  <--is an example of omitting the coordinating 
conjunction and replacing it with a semicolon.
<Sea Witch> The is very profound Casey.
<Casey> A semicolon is used to separate main clauses joined by a 
conjunctive adverb.  (Those "however" type words.)
<shorty103> the only time I use the semicolon is after Dear someone or 
to whom it may concern in the beginning of a letter or e-mail to someone 

<Casey> A colon (:) should be used there, Rose, not a semicolon. 
<Casey> In formal business letters.
<shorty103> Oh, I didn't know 
<Casey> Informal letters can use a comma (,) instead of the colon.  Like 
when you're writing to a friend.
<Sea Witch> Hey Casey, the meat in your burger ain't dead yet!
<Sea Witch> Now it's winking at us!
<kissfan> LOL 
<shorty103> LOL 
<Casey> What?  I'm missing something.
<Sea Witch> Heh heh
<kissfan> HEHEE 
<shorty103> HEHEH LOL SW 
<Casey> I thought I was only bleeding all over this screen.
<Sea Witch> You got two eyes peeping out of your brackets
<kissfan> LOL yep 
<Goshwin> ?
<Casey> LOL!  I finally got it.
<Casey> John asked me to go to the movie with his; however, I had 
homework to finish and couldn't go.
<Goshwin> Oh.. he he (finally gets it)
<Sea Witch> With his what?
<kissfan> (spelling is off too tonight) LOL 
<Casey> his  3D him
<Casey> Or add a word of your choosing.
<Sea Witch> Awww.  It was more interesting the other way
<kissfan> LOL yep 
<Sea Witch> Do you need the however after the SC?
<Casey> When however is used in this way, it's always preceded by the 
semicolon and a comma follows it.
<Sea Witch> Oh bugger!  I've been doing wrong all these years.  Comma 
then the "however"
<Casey> Yes, SW, in this example.  
<Casey> There is a time when commas surround the however.
<Casey> When you have a dependent or parenthetical clause joined to an 
independent clause.
<Casey> I did, however, decide to go with him.  --is an example.
<Sea Witch> Maybe I should get a copy of this Skunk bloke
<shorty103> this is getting more complicating that ever, how are we 
suppose to remember all this?  I know my brain is small, but ouch! 
<Casey> It's easy to recognize, Rose.  I did . . . decide to go with him 
is all one sentence.  There are not two "sentences" joined by the 
however.
<Sea Witch> Don't worry Rose.  I think we're all a little boggled 
tonight
<Casey> That makes however a parenthetical (unnecessary) phrase.
<shorty103> I do know one thing; this is going to help in my letter 
writing to any companies I approach to do business with 
<Goshwin> NOpe ... Blah blah... However, you might do Blah blah
<Sea Witch> That any decent editor will remove.
<Casey> Most likely, SW.  
<Casey> There are cases where the however *might* be crucial to the 
sentence, but most sentences can be written without it.
<Casey> That's what makes the word or phrase parenthetical.
<Casey> It can be left out without restricting or significantly changing 
the sentence's meaning.
<Sea Witch> Hypothetical parenthetical
<Casey> Welcome, Doctor Les!  Glad you made it.
<shorty103> hello DoctorLes 
<Sea Witch> Hi Doc ????????
<Goshwin> ?! a newbie?
<DoctorLes> So am I; in fact, I'm surprised I've made it. 
<kissfan> Hi Doc 
<Casey> An old newbie.
<DoctorLes> I may have to leave in about 15-  min., however. 
<DoctorLes> Depends. 
<Casey> Understand.  No problem.
<DoctorLes> Hello, Pen Pals. 
<Casey> To continue, then. . .
<Casey> The final use of a semicolon that I'll be covering tonight, is 
in serial listings.
<Casey> That's when you have a series of phrases (items) you're listing 
in one sentence.
<Sea Witch> My favourite cereal is Alpen but it only lists if my 
cupboards are over full
<Sea Witch> Lucky I got two Springers to clear up the spillage
<shorty103> okay, at first I didn't understand, and now I do 
<Casey> Semicolons separate items of a series only if the items 
themselves contain commas.
<Casey> For example, The following people were present:  John Smith, the 
doctor; Paul Brown, the dentist; and Elmer Wilson, the psychiatrist.
<shorty103> what if they don't contain commas, what then? 
<Casey> Then separate the items with commas only.
<shorty103> okay 
<shorty103> thanks 
<Casey> John Smith, Paul Brown, and Elmer Fudd were present.
<shorty103> got it now! silly me 
<DoctorLes> . . . the oily, old cotton rags; the stack of fingerless, 
orphaned gloves; the broken, weatherbeaten tables and chairs. 
<kissfan> interesting choice "Elmer Fudd" LOL 
<Casey> Again, the use is logical.  It keeps all the elements that 
belong together, together.
<Casey> I have to get humor in here somehow!
<kissfan> LOL it worked HEHEE 
<Casey> Great example, Les.
<Sea Witch> I'm hurt Casey!
<Casey> Why, SW?
<Sea Witch> I think the Doc has a garge he needs to clear out!
<DoctorLes> Just cementing it into my head, Casey; practice makes 
perfect. 
<DoctorLes> LOL 
<Casey> Yes, indeed!
<DoctorLes> As a matter of fact, I do. 
<Sea Witch> Great!  When you've finished that do ya wanna give me a hand 
with my office?
<kissfan> and my apartment LOL 
<DoctorLes> That may be awhile, Sea, just ask my wife. 
<Casey> Okay, everyone sigh relief, the grammar lesson is finished 
unless someone has a question.
<Sea Witch> I have a question Casey.
<Casey> Ask away, SW.
<Casey> (and risk being shot by other members.)
<Sea Witch> Er...I forgot what I was going to say.
<Sea Witch> Heh heh
<kissfan> LOL 
<shorty103> no questions from this end of town! 
<DoctorLes> All this time I thought a semicolon referred to the bowels 
of a large truck. 
<Casey> LOL!  Bwark, bwark!
<Sea Witch> Witchie starts scratching for grit!
<shorty103> cough it Casey, it might be money! 
<Casey> Okay, Premise takes center stage.
<Casey> Ewwww, Rose!  Odds are it won't be.
<Sea Witch> Would you like to qualify that statement Doc.  This Witch 
ain't sure what you mean.  
<shorty103> LOL 
<Casey> Semi refers to a very large truck here in the States, SW.
<DoctorLes> Just a half-assed pun. 
<Goshwin> isn't a semi colon what you are left with after a colostimy?
<DoctorLes> You know, "semi colon". 
<kissfan> LOL  
<DoctorLes> A doctor joke. 
<Sea Witch> I'm with ya.  We call 'em articulateds
<DoctorLes> You got it. 
<kissfan> EWWWWWWWWW Gosh 
<Goshwin> he he he, I see I still have my usual impact
<DoctorLes> You should take your shoes off. 
<shorty103> I think we'll freeze if we do that, I know I will, brrrrrr! 
<Sea Witch> I see the conversation has rapidly descended to it's usual 
level.
<Sea Witch> LOL Doc 
<DoctorLes> Anyone here write non-fiction too? 
<Casey> I do, Les.
<Sea Witch> At least Casey can't blame ME this time.  Heh heh
<Casey> In preparing for this class, I wondered what the difference was 
between a premise, theme, and moral, so I looked up all those words.
<DoctorLes> I don't want to get off topic, just curious. 
<Sea Witch> I read non-fiction.  Does that count?
<DoctorLes> Sure, you are the market!!! 
<Goshwin> (Chortle)
<Casey> It does count, SW
<Casey> Theme means, a subject of discourse, discussion, meditation, or 
composition; a topic.
<Sea Witch> Depends on what you write I suppose.  I like reading about 
Astronomy, Archaeology and Natural History.
<Casey> moral pertains to, or is concerned with right conduct or its 
principles.
<DoctorLes> And premise??? 
<Casey> premise, our topic for tonight, is a proposition (idea) 
supporting or helping to support a conclusion.
<Casey> In law, it means a basis, stated or assumed, on which reasoning 
proceeds.
<Sea Witch> Does that mean we will be talking syllogisms as well then?
<Casey> (Grabbing dictionary to look up syllogisms.)  Define, please?
<DoctorLes> If a  3D b, then b 3DA 
<Casey> That definitely is part of premise.  
<Casey> (It's embarrassing when the students are smarter than the 
teacher.  But it gives me an opportunity to learn, too!)
<Sea Witch> A form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn from two 
given assumed premises
<DoctorLes> Rather, if a 3D b, and b 3Dc, then a 3Dc also. 
<Sea Witch> Spot on Doc!
<DoctorLes> What I said. 
<DoctorLes> I was a teacher in a former life. 
<Casey> Logic must be looked at in your deductions if your story is to 
make sense or be plausible.
<Casey> If b doesn't follow logically from a, you'll lose readers.  
They'll never make it to b  3D c.
<Sea Witch> Naw, I did my homework earlier today.
<DoctorLes> Even better. 
<DoctorLes> <--- gold star for SW 
<Sea Witch> Thanks Doc.  I'll treasure it forever.
<Casey> The easiest way to present the concept of premise, I thought, 
was to look at some existing fiction and figure out what the premise 
was/is.
<Sea Witch> Go for it Casey
<Casey> Romeo and Juliet is one everyone knows, at least through the 
movie version if they haven't read the play itself.
<Casey> What is the premise there?
<Goshwin> (grumble) 
<Sea Witch> Don't you mean fumble Gosh <g>
<Casey> (And the most enduring literature often has more than one 
premise.)
<Sea Witch> And more than one idea one would hope
<Casey> Exactly.
<kissfan> love will continue even after death??? 
<shorty103> I think the premise on this one is, there are two lovers, 
one strong family member, life and death 
<Sea Witch> I don't think so.  Romeo & Juliet could be the local 
butchers for all a pleb knows.
<Casey> One obvious premise (idea) is that hatred (family feuds) are 
forced upon the next generation only at great cost.
<Sea Witch> Er...shall Witchie go sit in the bin Casey?
<Casey> We're not sure what continues after death.  
<kissfan> true 
<Casey> No, SW.  You don't need to sit in the waste bin.
<Sea Witch> Oh goody :o)
<Sea Witch> I do.
<DoctorLes> I think it is that love is a great but fragile treasure; 
easily destroyed by those who pursue baser interests. 
<Casey> Love can exist that is strong enough to accept death rather than 
face separation.  
<Casey> Yes, Les.  You said it well.
<kissfan> yep 
<Sea Witch> Doc must have a silver keyboard.
<DoctorLes> Aww shucks, t'weren't nuttin'. 
<kissfan> HEHEE 
<Casey> Family feuds are destructive to each family.  Neither wins.
<shorty103> I'm sorry I'm so quiet, but between a slight headache and my 
allergies,  I can't think tonight 
<Casey> That's okay, Rose.  You're allowed to sit quietly.
<Sea Witch> Premise - don't p*iss off your relatives or you'll risk 
trouble that multiplies down the generations
<Casey> Any other issues you can think of in Romeo and Juliet?
<shorty103> good over evil 
<Casey> Thank you, SW, for that modern way of saying it.
<Casey> How do you see good over evil, Rose?
<Sea Witch> Not just saying it.  I LIVE it.  Bloody family!
<Casey> That's right.  You were the one who wanted me to hold NW's on 
Christmas day.  To escape relatives.
<Sea Witch> That's right.  I did didn't I.   sigh......
<shorty103> well, the good with the two that were in love, and the evil 
of those who tried to keep them apart 
<Casey> Were they "good" to disobey their parents?  "Innocent" might be 
a better term for them.
<shorty103> yes, just can't think tonight 
<Casey> It's hard for me to view "dead" as triumphing over evil, too.  
<Sea Witch> Those who tried to keep them apart wouldn't necessary think 
they were evil.  They had the interest of their respective relatives at 
heart.
<Sea Witch> Something along the lines of, "You can't marry him!  You'll 
regret it for the rest of your life!"
<shorty103> yes, I do understand that, but I guess I never really got in 
that story  
<Sea Witch> I always thought Juliet was a bit of a prat for topping 
herself.
<Casey> Its like me forcing Tess to stay in the yard.  I'm 'bad' for not 
letting her run free, but the restrictions are meant to keep her from 
getting smushed by a car.
<Casey> "topping?"
<Casey> (I love your colloquialisms)
<Sea Witch> These days she would have put on a brave face, dug out the 
credit card and gone shopping!
<Casey> lol!
<kissfan> HEHEE  
<Casey> How about "The Gift of the Magi."
<DoctorLes> As in the story of Christ, (I'm not a Christian) it takes a 
martyr to overcome the demons of hatred. 
<shorty103> never heard of that one Casey 
<Goshwin> WAA HAHAHA (Im running on a lag here) (SW)
<Casey> A woman cuts off her long hair and sells it to buy her husband a 
watch chain, and her husband sells his watch to buy is wife combs for 
her long hair.
<DoctorLes> Ain't that just like life? 
<Casey> Good, Les!
<Sea Witch> Some lag Gosh.  <g>
<Sea Witch> Sod's Law
<Casey> (Have others read The Gift of the Magi?)
<DoctorLes> Yep. 
<kissfan> I have just trying to find the right words LOL 
<Sea Witch> Nope
<DoctorLes> Well Pen Pals, I've been summoned, as I feared. 
<kissfan> oh no  
<Casey> Great to see you again, Les.  Join us again anytime.
<Sea Witch> Aww.  Does that mean you're leaving?
<shorty103> nice meeting you Doc. you have a good one 
<Casey> Goodnight.
<kissfan> night doc 
<DoctorLes> Casey, I'm interested in this relatively new genre "Creative 
Non-Fiction". 
<Sea Witch> Nite, Doc
<Sea Witch> Nice meeting you
<DoctorLes> I'll try to catch you good people another night. 
<Casey> I've heard about it, Les.
<shorty103> I know another reason why I can think!  My Brain is frozen, 
as is my nose! 
<Casey> Sacrificing in order to give is the greatest form of love.
<kissfan> ok how about it doesn't matter what you give as long as it 
comes from the heart? 
<Sea Witch> Creative non-fiction is written by experts who haven't a 
clue what they're talking about!
<Casey> Or who want to rearrange the truth for some purpose.
<Sea Witch> Yeah, like sacrificing your freedom for 'em. :o)
<Sea Witch> I'm sorry Casey but this Witch is a born cynic.
<Casey> I've grown cynical over the years, too, SW.  I look for what the 
other person gains in any interaction.
<kissfan> lol me too lately 
<Sea Witch> If you don't mind me asking, why are you so cold Rose?  Is 
the weather very bad where you live?
<Casey> She's in a sun room, which doesn't hold heat with all the 
windows.
<kissfan> Can you move the pc to a warmer room rose? 
<shorty103> no, the temp has dropped, and it seems the heat is escaping 
through the windows, and it's a big old house too. 
<Sea Witch> Then she needs to be wrapped in an electric foot muff and 
blanket!  Brrrrrrr.
<kissfan> More snow may be on its way Rose 
<Casey> For those who are writing, do you know your story's premise?
<Sea Witch> The old favourite.  Good vs Evil
<kissfan> LOL mine too  
<kissfan> good vs evil 
<Casey> You think I'm going to let you get away with that alone?
<Sea Witch> If you don't I'll top the Prince
<kissfan> well... i was hoping so HEHEE 
<Casey> Arghhhhh!  (Mean SW!)
<Sea Witch> Heh heh
<Sea Witch> There's a bit of redemption in there somewheres.  
Now.....where did I put it.....
<Casey> In my own Moons' Kiss:  hopefully, I will show that technology 
can rescue or save man only up to a point.  Beyond that point, man's 
nature and adaptability (and flexibility) will determine individual (or 
cultural) (or species) survival.
<Casey> Have any of you noticed that many SF premises deal with 
scientific ideas or concepts as the main issue?
<Sea Witch> You haven't seen Star Wars then <g>
<shorty103> I have! 
<Casey> I did use the word "many"
<kissfan> yep 
<Sea Witch> Of course.  The question is, Is Star Wars SF?
<kissfan> or is it just fantasy  
<Chipmonk> Many use technology just for scenery too. 
<Sea Witch> To which the answer is....does the Pope poo in the woods?
<Casey> SF insofar as having weird looking creatures and the setting 
being somewhere other than earth.
<Sea Witch> Call it a landslide...Escape from reality.  Ahh that bring 
the memories flooding back
<shorty103> has anyone seen "The Fifth Element"  now that was an 
interesting movie, with interesting space creaters in it 
<kissfan> nope but I want too 
<Casey> Fantasy is an escape from reality.  Often set in alternate 
worlds, to make the magic plausible.
<Casey> Would Star Wars be SF-fantasy?
<Sea Witch> Whereas, SF is an escape from the mundane into a world where 
scientific speculation has become the norm
<shorty103> see, I can't even spell tonight,  creaters  3D  creatures 
<Casey> I haven't even heard of The Fifth Element.  I'm still out of 
touch with current events.
<kissfan> yes but I pictured the "force" as a form of magic so  Star 
Wars could be considered science fantasy 
<Chipmonk> Yes, Starwars is more myth than science. 
<Sea Witch> I've seen FE.  The only creature Mr SW fixed on was the 
skimpily clad French actress/model
<kissfan> LOL 
<Sea Witch> I had to make to with Bruce Willis.   Big sigh
<shorty103> If you get a chance to rent it, you might like it Casey, 
they even have a little bit of opera in there 
<kissfan> it figures  
<Casey> Figures he would, SW!
<shorty103> but not like his other movies, he seems not to take over on 
this one 
<Goshwin> I like SF with a Fant touch, if well done it can add mystique.
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