CHAT ARCHIVE - 2-12-00, Story

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       ICQ Chat Save file   
Started on Sun Feb 13 03:20:03 2000

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<Casey> For anyone who is interested, Russ and I have a challenge going
that anyone can join.
<kissfan> cool what kind of challenge?
<Casey> The details are on Delphi under Time Warner Contest.
<Casey> Russ and I have challenged each other to complete at least a
draft of our novels by June 30, the deadline for the contest.
<kissfan> OH MY!!! *gulp*
<Sea Witch> That'll take some doing Casey.  I wish you luck
<Casey> The contest itself sounds really good.  It would be great to
enter, except an entire, completed novel is necessary.
<Casey> Only the first 60 pages is necessary to enter, however.  We'll
actually have until December to polish the rest of the book.
<Sea Witch> I've no chance of that.  I accepted that commission from the
Egyptian bloke instead
<shorty103> Oh my is right , that is a challenge!=20
<kissfan> *gulp*  that is a lot of work=20
<shorty103> good luck to the both of you=20
<Sea Witch> Sounds a long time.  Do you think you'll do OK?
<Casey> I have no idea, Witchie.  I'd just like a draft of Moons' Kiss =
completed in my lifetime.=20
<Casey> Yes, it will be a lot of work.  I'm not sure it can be done, but =
it will force us to work on our mss.  If nothing else, we'll be farther =
along on June 30 than we are now.
<Sea Witch> Is that how I caught you over a hot keyboard the other =
night?
<kissfan> this is true sometimes you need to put a deadline on things to =
get them done at least I do=20
<Sea Witch> Circumstances have a nasty habit of getting in the way of my =
deadlines.  Hmph!
<kissfan> ya mine too=20
<Casey> Yeah, I've been writing!  I'm a whole chapter nearer the end =
than I was last week!
<Sea Witch> Way to go Casey!
<Goshwin> My My, someone bets her five bucks and she kills herself=20
<Casey> Russ will be totally humiliated if he's "beaten by a girl," so I =
have incentive to beat him.
<Sea Witch> I'm rooting for you Casey.  Heh heh
<Casey> That 's better than entering the contest, in my opinion!
<Sea Witch> Damn right!
<kissfan> LOL yes for sure=20
<shorty103> true=20
<Casey> Anyway, thanks for your well wishes.  Enough about me. =20
<Casey> The grammar lesson tonight is about exclamation marks (!):  =
their use and abuse.
<Goshwin> Really!?!! how nice!
<Goshwin> !!!
<Casey> Yes!  Isn't it!
<Casey> heh heh heh
<kissfan> !!!!! cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=20
<kissfan> LOL=20
<Casey> When do you really and truly use exclamation points?
<Sea Witch> Oh dear! =20
<Casey> Anyone care to guess?
<Goshwin> NO!
<shorty103> when your trying to emphasize something!=20
<Casey> Okay.  The "legal" literary use of exclamation points is when =
interjections are used.
<Casey> Help!  is one.
<Casey> Fire! =20
<shorty103> danger!=20
<Casey> You got it, Rose.
<Sea Witch> Duck!
<Goshwin> Danger will robinson!
<kissfan> Watch out!=20
<Sea Witch> That's a sure sign of a misspent youth you have there Gosh
<Sea Witch> Or a pretty crappy taste in films
<Casey> If someone screams it, you're usually safe using an ! at the end =
of the statement.
<kissfan> LOL SW=20
<Sea Witch> So "Arrrrrggghhh!" would work then?
<Casey> yes, Witchie.
<Goshwin> I Was talking about the TV show!
<Goshwin> (Chortle) or should I say Chortle!
<shorty103> I'm in Pain!=20
<Sea Witch> I hated it even when I was a kid.
<Sea Witch> It was even more embarrassing then Voyage to the Bottom of =
the Sea
<Casey> When the scream comes in the middle of a sentence and is quoted, =
the punctuation is:  He yelled "Stop!" and grabbed the wheel.
<shorty103> or should it look like this  I'm in "Pain!"=20
<Casey> If that's what your character is saying, Rose, the punctuation =
would be "I'm in pain!"
<shorty103> Okay, I see now=20
<Casey> If a character is saying it, all the words she's saying has to =
be included within the quotation marks (")
<shorty103> understood=20
<Casey> Do I have to describe overuse of exclamation marks?
<Sea Witch> No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Casey> (Uh, one ! is enough, too.)
<Sea Witch> Just demonstrating
<shorty103> no, that is okay,  I think we get the drift of it.=20
<Sea Witch> Heh heh
<Casey> Ending every sentence with an ! is just a bit too much, too.
<kissfan> LOL  ya I think we know that one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=20
<kissfan> LOL sorry =20
<Goshwin> !
<Sea Witch> <g>
<Casey> Like everything else, if it's used too frequently, it loses the =
impact it originally had.
<Casey> Used sparingly (very sparingly), it grabs the reader's attention =
every time.
<Sea Witch> Like profane language.  Skillfully placed it shocks.  Too =
much and it becomes yawn-worthy
<shorty103> yes, that does make sense=20
<Casey> Yes.  We humans have an Overkill button that dulls our senses =
when triggered.
<Sea Witch> I have a Tarantino scale and if the alarm goes off I dump =
the submission
<Casey> Which reminds me of something else.  I received a great letter =
that I have gotten permission to share.  After class, I'll pass it =
around.
<Sea Witch> That sounds intriguing.
<kissfan> well that will make me want to stick around for a while=20
<Casey> It addresses some of the problems with modern-day literature as =
experienced by a modern-day reader.  I thought it was worth sharing.
<Goshwin> This will be interesting
<Casey> So, on to Story.
<Goshwin> OK!
<Casey> This topic is not as straightforward as others we've addressed.
<Casey> Plot gets mixed into a lot of the definitions I've found for =
story.
<Casey> Which shows what an integral part plot plays in any story.
<Sea Witch> Nothing I've ever written could be considered "straight =
forward"
<Sea Witch> Bloody awkward is a better description
<Casey> Now, now, Witchie.  I know your work.  It's very enjoyable.
<shorty103> that is so true SW=20
<Sea Witch> Blush
<Casey> (Did I use "enjoyable" in relation to blood and guts?!)
<Sea Witch> heh heh heh
<kissfan> every writer is over critical of their own work=20
<shorty103> true Kathy=20
<Casey> We are, each of us, our own harshest critics.
<Sea Witch> I've been invited over to California on the strength of mine
<shorty103> way to go SW=20
<Casey> Your critical skills or your writing?
<kissfan> WOW =20
<Sea Witch> writing.  But it's a non fiction piece that I'll be working =
on
<shorty103> probable both Casey=20
<Casey> Do the border patrols know this?
<Sea Witch> I intend to sneak in on the tide!
<shorty103> lol SW=20
<kissfan> LOL=20
<Sea Witch> Genuine antique.  Won't even have to pay import tax on me
<Casey> Very cool!
<Goshwin> So were talking a real piece? (Of Archeology)
<Sea Witch> Yep.  Egyptian archaeology.  The Amarna period
<Sea Witch> I'll tell you about it later cos I'm spoiling Casey's lesson
<Casey> No you're not.
<Casey> A short story consists of a convincing character in conflict =
with circumstances.  The conflict may be large or small.  It may be =
mental or physical, but it must be of importance to the character.  The =
main character is never completely the same at the conclusion of the =
story as at the beginning.  In some manner, either the character or the =
situation of your character has been altered.  It is the change for =
better or for worse that makes a story.
<Sea Witch> Very succinctly put Casey
<Casey> It's not my original definition, SW, but it's the one I'm most =
familiar with.
<Sea Witch> There would be little point to a story if everything stayed =
the same
<shorty103> well put,  I like that =20
<Casey> This came from my writing professor, who got it from someone =
else.
<Casey> I don't think the original source is known anymore.
<Casey> The words emphasized are "convincing" character, "conflict," =
"importance," and "change."
<Casey> Although this definition was applied to the short story, the =
same elements are important in novel writing as well.
<Casey> Has anyone here not written at least one short story in their =
career?
<Sea Witch> Cut my teeth on short stories
<kissfan> I haven't written a ss since high school=20
<Casey> your visions are too big for ss's, Kathy.
<Goshwin> I am attempting those right now..
<Sea Witch> I still write them when I get the time.  Got two on the go =
at the moment, part of one you have already seen Casey
<Casey> I know which one you're talking about, SW.
<kissfan> yes every time I try to write one it turns into a novel or a =
start of one LOL=20
<Sea Witch> Yeah, it's so easy to get carried away Kathy
<kissfan> yes it is HEHEE=20
<Casey> Short stories are great practice in *completing* something. =20
<Sea Witch> Not in this house unfortunately
<Sea Witch> I'm usually editing other people's work instead
<shorty103> my inspiration hasn't been there for a long time,  I guess =
it's my business that has taken over for the time being=20
<Casey> Short stories allow you to try devices, experiment with styles, =
with all the elements that comprise larger works, without the time =
investment and sweat of a much bigger piece.
<Casey> They also are great for teaching you to write succinctly!
<Goshwin> yep... that's why I'm not even thinking of doing larger works =
for a while
<Sea Witch> I found that working out a plot in a ss is quite difficult =
until you find the knack.  I learned a lot from writing shorts
<shorty103> what does succinctly mean?=20
<Casey> Succinctly means, with the fewest possible words.
<Sea Witch> concisely
<shorty103> okay, thank you=20
<Casey> When writers talk about "tight" writing, they usually mean =
writing that does not use unnecessary words in the telling of the story.
<Goshwin> To the point?
<shorty103> okay, understood.=20
<Sea Witch> Will you please go away and leave me alone is polite.  But =
"Bugger off" is succinct
<Sea Witch> Heh heh
<kissfan> LOL good one SW=20
<Casey> SW's great for examples!  Thank you, thank you.
<Sea Witch> Takes a bow
<Goshwin> A razberry is even more succinct
<shorty103> I am beginning to understand it now, thanks everyone=20
<Sea Witch> Nice one Gosh <g>
<Casey> What is the difference between short story writing (creation) =
and novel creation?
<Sea Witch> Tight writing means dropping the adjectives and superlatives
<Casey> WHY are some stories not able to be told as short stories?
<Sea Witch> My problem is...I'm top heavy with the adjectives
<shorty103> and some just ramble on without making any sense at all=20
<Sea Witch> And WHY are some novels not able to be told as short stories =
Take those epic fantasies for instance
<kissfan> too much detail needed for the story=20
<Sea Witch> They waffle on to no apparent end
<Casey> good one, Kathy.
<Sea Witch> The author is paid by the chapter
<shorty103> I think on those epic fantasies,  the time range is so long =
that it wouldn't fit  or sound good as a short story=20
<Casey> It's worse if the author is paid by the word!
<kissfan> LOL that is what happens when I try to write a ss too much =
detail=20
<Sea Witch> Most could be summed up as ....They rode around a bit, had a =
few fights and went home
<Casey> LOL, SW!  Unfortunately, I must agree.
<kissfan> LOL Yep=20
<Casey> Kathy's going in the right direction.
<Casey> SS's don't have the length to permit fully developed =
backgrounds, fully developed characters (in many instances).
<kissfan> LOL I am trying at least.  but it seems to be taking forever =
for me to get it the way that i want it to be=20
<Sea Witch> I'm glad someone is.  I can't even find the bloody door!
<kissfan> LOL=20
<shorty103> but for some, they don't understand how much or how little =
detail to put, so they go on and on,  =20
<Sea Witch> and on and on and on and on andzzzzzzzzzz
<shorty103> true,  SW=20
<Casey> There is some misconception that the more tangents can be =
brought into play, the more astute and brilliant the writer appears to =
be. =20
<kissfan> you have to know when to stop =20
<Sea Witch> I don't need a page of description when someone is sticking =
a key in a lock
<Casey> What actually happens is the writer is so misled by Aunt =
Mildred's pea green pants, they forget there's a murder about to happen.
<Sea Witch> Not if the murderer was wearing Aunt Mildred's pea green =
pants
<Casey> And the reader is there for the murder, not Auntie M's pantsuit.
<Sea Witch> Quite so Casey
<shorty103> but how does one know if there is too much or two little?  =
it reads okay to the one who wrote it, but to other's how do they know =
what should or shouldn't be there?=20
<Casey> Ask yourself the question:  What happens and why.  In each scene =
you write.
<Sea Witch> I find that Julian May is a terrible offender.
<Casey> If you can't answer the why question, then odds are its =
extraneous  (you don't need it).
<Sea Witch> She seems to have inexhaustible knowledge of consumer =
products
<Sea Witch> Both past and future
<Casey> Isn't that Martha Stewart envy?
<Sea Witch> Who's Martha Stewart?
<kissfan> AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH Martha Stewart =20
<kissfan> be glad you don't know of her LOL=20
<Sea Witch> Is she one of the Cheltenham Stewarts?
<Casey> She knows everything in the world about consumer products, how =
to make napkin rings from pansy petals, ad nauseum.
<Sea Witch> Yuk!  sounds like a barrel of laughs
<kissfan> she can even sew up a fish before cooking it with a buttonhole =
stitch LOL=20
<Casey> She's a tremendous joke here in the U.S.  She does radio spots, =
explaining such wonders as lemon trees.
<Sea Witch> The question I would ask myself is, "Why?"
<kissfan> LOL I asked myself that very question=20
<Casey> Because someone's silly enough to pay her lots of money to do =
it.
<Sea Witch> Does this poor sad woman not have a life?
<Casey> Absolutely no life.
<kissfan> none at all=20
<shorty103> I don't think so=20
<Sea Witch> We have sad, pointless people over here.  They're called =
game show hosts
<Sea Witch> Over here we call it Sad Bastard's Syndrome
<Casey> Another way to check whether you're overdoing descriptions and =
scenes, is to ask yourself whether this scene furthers the =
story--advances it closer to the end and the climax.
<kissfan> My nephew summed it up the other day when he called her that =
stupid woman with the senseless to do show LOL=20
<Sea Witch> LOL
<Casey> That's why it's important (extremely important in my opinionated =
opinion) to know the end of your story as you're writing the first words =
of your book.
<shorty103> so that is where an outline would come in handy in some =
cases=20
<Sea Witch> Yeah, you can't ramble on without having a literary map in =
your hands.  You'd get hopelessly lost
<Casey> You Brits are so direct and to the point.  No wasted politeness =
there.  I love it.
<kissfan> yep or at least a summary, Rose=20
<Sea Witch> Just a reflection of dry northern humour
<Goshwin> Cant forshadow if you dont know what your shadowing
<shorty103> maybe that is half my problem when I do get in the mood to =
write,  I can't find the map to guide me!  LOL=20
<Casey> I view it the same way, SW.  If you don't know where you're =
going when you start a journey, how do you know you've reached the end =
when you get there?  Efficiency dictates you know where you're going.
<kissfan> LOL it may be there under all those business papers,Rose=20
<shorty103> LOL Kathy=20
<Sea Witch> So how come my map always seems to be written in sanskrit?
<Goshwin> Chiseled in stone?
<Sea Witch> No wonder the damned thing won't fit into the glove box
<Sea Witch> And with my luck it's probably carved from coprolite
<Casey> I've not found it necessary to understand every move my =
characters will make before I begin a story, they are usually helpful =
along the way, but we all know where we have to end up.
<shorty103> I can't even fight my way out of a wet paper bag, let alone =
with you helping it.  LOL=20
<kissfan> yes my charactors seem to know where they are heading before I =
get there=20
<kissfan> if that makes any sense=20
<Sea Witch> It does Kathy
<shorty103> I'll figure it out someday, and yes it does kathy=20
<Sea Witch> In the right frame of mind I find impromptu inspiration =
works wonders
<Casey> yes, it does.  And it sometimes changes some of my assumptions =
related to the story or the characters.
<Sea Witch> I invariably find that new directions lead to more divers =
choices further down the inky road.
<Casey> Other things that can be said about short stories, in =
differentiating them from novels:
<Sea Witch> They're short.  They aren't novel
<Casey> They concern or address a single event.
<Casey> They can be short and novel!
<Sea Witch> That should have been novels
<Sea Witch> sheepish grin
<kissfan> HEHEE=20
<Casey> they are usually told by a single character (the viewpoint =
character)
<Sea Witch> Many books concern a single event but try to disguise the =
fact
<Casey> Like, by going off in 15 directions?
<Sea Witch> I usually write my stories in the first person.  It's much =
easier.  I don't do that with the big stuff though
<Casey> Writers have claimed to enjoy "tricking" readers by going off on =
tangents, making them believe one ending will happen, then switching to =
the original or a different line of action later.
<shorty103> how do you know what is the best for the story being told,  =
whether to put it in first person or third, if both sound good =20
<Sea Witch> Whatever you feel comfortable with and works best for you
<Casey> If both will work equally well, it's a matter of which gets in =
all the information you feel needs to be presented in order for the =
story to have the greatest impact.
<Casey> Impact is, after all, what you wish for your story.  You want =
the reader to finish reading your story and have it haunt them, or make =
them think about it, after they're finished reading.
<kissfan> sometimes when I start off in first person but then it usually =
ends up in third so I have to go back and fix the beginning=20
<shorty103> okay, because one story, Casey is familiar with it,  I think =
it would be better told as first, but still,  third might give it more , =
I can't think of the word.=20
<kissfan> or even better is when the reader goes back to read it again=20
<Casey> Exactly.  That's the highest compliment a writer can realize.
<Casey> your story works well in first person, Rose.
<shorty103> okay,   I thought it would, but I'm glad that you said it=20
<Casey> It is, really and truly, your protagonist's story.  What she =
learns, she learns from whatever she observes, hears, etc.
<Casey> What she pieces together herself.
<kissfan> or feels in some cases=20
<shorty103> yes,  I see Casey=20
<Sea Witch> One story I read recently haunts me.  It was published in =
Interzone a few months ago.  The story subject wasn't anything special =
but the writing was good.  What shocked me was the fact it had been =
written by an 11 year old!
<kissfan> WOW SW that is so good=20
<Casey> 11 year olds haven't had the don't do this, don't do that, never =
do that drilled into them by teachers that we all suffer from.
<kissfan> how true sometimes I wish I could forget some of what I =
learned LOL=20
<Sea Witch> Her father's a writer so I suspect she learned how from a =
very early age.  She writes better than a lot of adults
<kissfan> maybe she was born with the talent=20
<Casey> That is great to hear.  Imagine her years from now!
<Sea Witch> Yeah,  someone to look out for I'd say
<Casey> Short stories should have as few scenes and characters as =
possible and still tell the intended story.
<Sea Witch> I can't make up my mind whether she's mature or precocious
<Goshwin> Personally I wont bet on anything till we see what puberty
brings... Some very promising kids get very dumb when hormones do there
thing
<kissfan> LOL maybe both =20
<Sea Witch> I used to be a pretty drippy kid but I recovered!
<Casey> Same here, SW, but I don't know about the recovered part.
<kissfan> I seem to keep going back to the drippy kid part LOL
<Sea Witch> It's all right for blokes.  They can remain a perpetual 10
years old and no one notices
<Casey> SS's cover a brief span of time (as opposed to sagas, trilogies,
and epic fantasies a la Tolkien)
<Goshwin> Sometimes that's an asset!...
<Casey> Maybe that's why guys usually make impressive writers--they
don't have to waste time on acting grown up, doing house chores, etc. 
People don't expect them to, so all that time is freed up.)
<Sea Witch> Yeah, the usual unfair division of domestic labour.  They
muck the place up and we have the privilege of cleaning up
<Goshwin> Actually, the best writers are ones who are able to get left
alone, To be without distraction and to actually dream. When life and
writing becomes filled with details and distraction, the art fails
<Sea Witch> Nice thought Gosh.  I've been trying to do that for months. 
No luck so far though
<kissfan> Like when I have to go baby sit the 5 year old the =
distractions are endless LOL
<Goshwin> Same here, Things are more than busy for me (I should tell you
about the life of an engineer sometime)
<Casey> the "get left alone" part is absolutely crucial, Gosh.  And that
can happen in a crowded waiting room, if you're one of those people who
can tune out background noises.
<Casey> As long as your neighbor doesn't want to ask what you're doing,
and then want to talk about his kids and his failing marriage.
<Sea Witch> The next kids I'll babysit will be grandkids
<shorty103> I have time, but Jim is my biggest distraction,  when he =
wants to tell a story, he tells it whether I'm listening or not.=20
<kissfan> LOL i want out of the babysitting=20
<Sea Witch> I'm the kind to tune out background noises with an Uzi
<Goshwin> I Am hoping to get a house soon, one with an extra room that =
will be my study!! (ahh to be alone)
<kissfan> wish I could tune things out but I seem to hear every little =
noise=20
<Sea Witch> I gotta house.  The peace and quite thing don't work I'm =
afraid.
<Sea Witch> And MY office is in the attic!
<Goshwin> Grumble..  this does not bode well
<shorty103> I live in a big house,  more rooms than I know what to do =
with, but still Jim and his stories with follow me no matter what=20
<Casey> Harold will leave me along for about 20 minutes max.  Then he =
has to tell me burning, life altering things like The neighbor's walking =
her dog and says Hi!
<kissfan> looking for a place big enough to have a room to myself=20
<Sea Witch> I've got a notice on my door that says SOD OFF but no one
seems to take any notice of it
<kissfan> in a 2 room apartment there isn't any place to get away
<Goshwin> You could electrify the knob, perhaps a bungy pit
<Casey> I've had one that threatened lives if the door was broached.  My
son would poke his head in to say he loved it, when would the next
threat be posted?
<Sea Witch> LOL
<kissfan> LOL
<shorty103> but I must admit,  when Jim lays down it's very quiet in
this house, and the only other thing that distracts me is the cats doing
the Indy 500 around the house
<kissfan> heck I don't even have doors to the rooms
<Sea Witch> electrify the front door more like.  Trouble is, how to
explain the corpses piling up on the front step
<Goshwin> Well, that's what the pit is for!
<Casey> My salvation is Harold's musical career (compromised by customer
deadlines)
<kissfan> LOL no wonder the water is bad here LOL
<kissfan> bodies are in the well HEHEE
<Sea Witch> *Smacks head in shame*  Of course.  The pit
<Goshwin> Perhaps a few scavengers to pick the bones?
<Sea Witch> Seagulls will do nicely I believe
<shorty103> well, a few of the rooms don't have doors,  but wrought iron
gates and walls=20
<Sea Witch> Your house sounds very interesting Rose
<Casey> Yes!  We're always encouraged to feed the birds.  I've never =
heard distinctions on types of birds to be fed!
<Sea Witch> The ones we have round here crap on the car by way of thanks
<Casey> Small price to pay for uninterrupted writing time.
<Casey> Did anyone follow the link Mick put on Delphi to Joseph =
Campbell's (very short) explanation of monomyth?
<Sea Witch> Not been there very recently I'm afraid
<shorty103> neither have I=20
<kissfan> haven't been able to get to Delphi lately=20
<kissfan> but plan on going there tomorrow=20
<Casey> It's an interesting plot outline.
<kissfan> cool =20
<Casey> It congeals all mythical stories into a single plotline.
<kissfan> now that sounds very interesting=20
<Casey> The progression, according to his theory, can work for any =
story.
<Sea Witch> That's odd.  That's something similar to what I want to do =
with my ss.  With a few Neanderthals thrown in for good measure
<Casey> you might find the page interesting then, SW.
<Sea Witch> I'll take a look tomorrow
<Casey> As soon as I read it, I recognized Tolkien's Lord of the Rings =
immediately.
<Sea Witch> Good old Tolkien
<kissfan> wow cool it is worth checking out=20
<Casey> Yeah.  That's two very handy links posted on Delphi very =
recently.
<Casey> I have trouble seeing Campbell's theory at work in all stories, =
but the theory is there.
<Casey> In other words, the change in the character in the final round.
<Sea Witch> Yeah, I had one that went from one extreme of disbelief to =
absolute belief
<Casey> Other theorists propose that there are only a set number of =
plots from which all stories are written.
<shorty103> so what about this story you are going to unveil Casey, or =
is it an article=20
<kissfan> I had one that had no self esteem to total self esteem=20
<shorty103> that sounds like me kathy=20
<kissfan> and me LOL=20
<kissfan> actually writing that one helped me gain mine=20
<Casey> It's a letter, Rose.  Want me to pause and send it now?  (It has =
to go by email.)
<Sea Witch> Too much self esteem is as bad as none at all
<Sea Witch> Yeah, do it Casey cos this Witch is going to fold pretty =
soon now.  I'm cabbaged
<Casey> BRB
<kissfan> yes it must be quite early in the morning there=20
<Sea Witch> just after 4am
<shorty103> Oh my! that is early=20
<Sea Witch> long day.  I was up at 6.30 this morning.
<Goshwin> She suffers for her art
<Casey> Email sent.
<Casey> There's hope for each of us!
<Casey> somewhere or another, I've seen the list of universal plots, but =
what book they were in, I no longer remember and was unable to find them =
again before tonight.  (I did look.)
<kissfan> What is getting to me is that every time I sit down to write =
on Destiny the stupid romance story keeps popping into my head LOL=20
<Casey> Writing down either a scene from it or the plot outline and =
theme may help to get it out of your head, Kathy.
<kissfan> LOL yes I am doing that now =20
<Casey> These stories just can't politely wait their turn, can they?
<kissfan> LOL nope they can't =20
(After reading my email send:)
<Sea Witch> That man got himself published?  Where was that?  In =
Toytown?!!!!!
<Casey> I don't ever want to see you putting down your own writing!
<Sea Witch> Having seen that it makes me feel a whole lot better
<Casey> That's how I felt after reading it.  That's why I asked if I =
could share it.
<Casey> I read an interesting explanation of why we're seeing so much =
crap in print.
<Sea Witch> Yeah, the authors have family sitting in the boardrooms of =
publishing houses!
<shorty103> so I do have hope, don't I Casey?=20
<Sea Witch> You sure do Rose!
<Casey> Actually, the explanation is that crap has been published ever =
since the invention of the printing press.  It's just that as the years =
pass, the awful stuff vanishes and the enduring (good) stuff remains.  =
So, from our perspective, only good stuff was written 100 years ago and =
writing's gone to hell today.  Yet 100 years from now, all anyone will =
see from today are the best of what has been published.
<Sea Witch> If they can find any
<kissfan> ya really=20
<Sea Witch> The booker prize listed the usual no hopers=20
<Casey> Well, we haven't completed our novels yet.
<Sea Witch> You have a point there Casey  heh heh heh
<kissfan> well I just read it and I know I can do better than that moron =

<kissfan> at least I know how to use a comma=20
<Sea Witch> His dad probably owns the company
<shorty103> Oh my, just what I read so far,   I can put this man to =
shame!=20
<kissfan> LOL yep=20
<Sea Witch> Someone gave me a copy of a book called Mercer's Whore. 
It's one of the worst books I've ever had the misfortune to open the
cover of
<Casey> The good news is, Crip borrowed the book from the library, he
didn't buy it.
<Casey> The author didn't get Crip's money (reward) for writing that
stuff.
<Goshwin> What did I just miss? who?
<Casey> Check your email, Gosh.
<kissfan> LOL good didn't deserve a reward=20
<Goshwin> HUmm ok (been clearing files for the last few min)
<shorty103> I'm not sure I want to read the rest, but if I'm going to
learn from it,  I think I better
<Casey> Universal story plots:  boy meets girl (girl meets boy), one
gets the other but only after mind-numbing convolutions.  (These are my
versions.  Sorry.)
<Goshwin> Oh horror.. Even I can get published with crap like that going
around!!
<kissfan> LOL we all can HEHEE
<Casey> Isn't that an uplifting email?  I loved it.
<shorty103> it sure is,  Casey=20
<kissfan> I am printing that out and when I feel discouraged I am going =
to read it=20
<Sea Witch> Yeah, It's pretty unbelievable isn't it.
<Goshwin> Man, That's why publishing is so crappy these days!
<Casey> Publishers need so many books, articles, stories, etc. a =
year/month, whatever.  When they can't get good stuff, they have to =
settle for what they can get, which ends up being the best of the worst.
<kissfan> which hurts the good writers later on because readers are so
used to seeing crap
<Casey> I disagree, Kathy.  I think it makes the good writers stick out
and shine.
<Goshwin> People just stop reading
<kissfan> yes but if readers are used to the crap they won't want to
read much of anything
<kissfan> they will think that is all there is left
<kissfan> yep so true
<Casey> Yes, the "stop reading" part is definitely a danger.
<Goshwin> Don't look now Case, your nemesis is online!
<Casey> Worse than that, he's here!
<Goshwin> EEK....
<Russ> Hi all
<shorty103> or just pick the authors that they know which don't write
crap=20
<Casey> That's what I do, Rose.
<Goshwin> Actually Ive stopped reading...
<Casey> I don't read very widely in fiction any more.
<Russ> So, what is the topic tonight, Casey?=20
<kissfan> there isn't much good fiction coming out lately=20
<Goshwin> I haven't seen much that grabbed me. There are good writers, =
but no Grand writers in fiction today
<Casey> The topic is Story.
<Russ> Story, huh?  Anything I should know about before I jump in and =
tell you all how to write ?<g>=20
<Casey> No.  Just jump right in.  We're listening and ready for you.
<Casey> (I'm working on chapter 6 now!  Worry.)
<Russ> (I am worried, Casey.)  OK.  Who is writing a character driven =
story=20
<Casey> I am.
<kissfan> I am=20
<Casey> That means I don't have to have action, right?
<Russ> How are you showing who your characters are?  Are you using =
defining moments?  (Something like that Casey)=20
<Casey> By their actions (what they do); how they react to what they've =
done; what they think about what they are doing or how they are =
perceived by others.
<shorty103> I'm having a hard time with two reds here, I don't know if =
it's Casey or Russ speaking=20
<Casey> What other characters say or think about them, or how they react =
to them.
<Casey> You can't tell us apart even without the color confusion, Rose.  =
heh heh heh
<kissfan> LOL =20
<Russ> I want you to think about something.  Your characters are defined =
by the choices they make.=20
<Russ> Anyone have a thought on that?=20
<Casey> It's true, Russ.
<Casey> What anyone does is more telling than what they say they're =
going to do.  Especially if those two things clash.  Then actions are =
more believable than the words spoken.
<shorty103> I get confused when it comes to showing then telling,  I =
seem to tell more than I show=20
<Russ> What I mean by defining moments is, in every chapter, there is a =
point where the POV character has to make a choice.  The choice they =
make, how they make it, and why they make it shows more about the =
character than any internal thought or feelings.=20
<Russ> Rose, what is your main character's defining characteristic?=20
<shorty103> okay, that is a start of understanding it for me,  I like =
the way you've put that, still working on that=20
<Casey> (Everybody should answer that question, not just Rose.)
<Casey> For Manerra, it's insecurity.
<Russ> with every choice that comes your character's way, you need to =
know not only what choice he or she makes, but the reason behind it.  =
Also, use the power of their past to war against the choice they make.  =
E.G.  Joe is afraid of snakes.  His wife is trapped in a pit of vipers =
with only him to save her.  Does he do it?=20
<Casey> Was divorce a prior issue in their marriage?
<shorty103> still trying to understand my character, and how she =
differs, as it's taken from a real person, but I don't want me to =
influence this character but what I know=20
<Russ> Casey, pick a scene in your last chapter where Manerra has to =
make a choice between what she has to do and her insecurity.  Build that =
point, use that tension to define her=20
<shorty103> does that make any sense Casey=20
<kissfan> for Journfor Journ I think that he is insecure =20
<kissfan> but his father in the other story is strong and quite sure of =
himself=20
<Casey> A mia dies while giving birth.  The blood scent will draw =
predators that will endanger the rest of the flock.  For the flock's =
sake, moving camp is an obvious choice.  However, there is an injured =
man Manerra found who just underwent surgery and will likely die if they =
move.
<Russ> So , Casey, what choice does Manerra make?  And Why?  What =
process does she go through to reach that choice?=20
<Russ> (Still with us, Gosh?)=20
<Casey> Manerra  tells Aya they must move.  However, when Aya agrees and =
forces Manerra to abide by that decision and inform the others, he sees =
it as a trap and a deception.
<Casey> He's angry with Aya for tricking him into making what should =
have been Aya's decision.
<Russ> Do you use Aya as a foil to show Manerra's insecurity?=20
<Casey> Absolutely.
<Russ> How?=20
<Casey> Aya is much older than Manerra, and has been through years of =
experience dealing with other people--a wide variety of people.  He's =
very self assured and confident.
<Russ> Kathy, where is the first place in your book that Journfor has to =
make a choice?=20
<Casey> A foil's use is in contrast. =20
<Russ> (I know that Casey! sheesh)=20
<Casey> (Others might not!)
<kissfan> he has to decide to leave the village where he grew up leaving =
his mother alone=20
<Russ> Why?  What is the path that leads him to that choice?=20
<Russ> Rose, think about the questions I asked Kathy. =20
<Russ> That is a defining moment, Kathy.  How can you use that point to =
show us who Journfor is?=20
<shorty103> I am, and I'm not coming up with anything that I think is =
worth while at the moment,  I have to develop my character more
<Russ> That's what this is for, Rose. 
<kissfan> the war between his people and the Romans was beginning  to
get close. He had been chosen before his birth to be the one to go and
find what had happened to his father and the others and to make sure
there is a safe place
<shorty103> okay, understood
<Russ> So, he has to leave because of what others tell him.  Not by his
own volition?
<kissfan> yes but he still had to make the choice on whether to go or
stay
<Russ> Of course he does.  That's why this is a defining moment.  Is his
duty to his calling stronger than the love and duty he feels to his
mother?=20
<kissfan> yes
<Casey> You mean, there is a prophecy he may or may not fulfill?
<kissfan> He knew that by going it could benefit the rest of his people
<kissfan> yes exactly
<kissfan> He also knew that if he went, he may not get back in time to =
help the others=20
<Russ> Now, Kathy, we know What choice he makes.  How does he make this =
choice?=20
<kissfan> He listens to what the elder of the village tells him and =
weighs the pros and cons and decides that he had to at least try to help =
his people no matter what the cost would be=20
<Russ> What is the process he goes through to make this choice.  You can =
use the mother as a point to show the inner conflict he is feeling.  =
Maybe he ends up trying to distance himself from his mother emotionally =
by angering her.=20
<Russ> Or does he try to comfort her, tell her everything will be all =
right.=20
<kissfan> his anger at his father for leaving and not returning spurred =
him into leaving, he wanted to confront his father for leaving him and =
his mother=20
<kissfan> He knew that the others would take care of his mother and he =
told her that he would be back but had to go =20
<Casey> But then, he becomes his father in a way, doesn't he?
<kissfan> yes he does=20
<Casey> By leaving his mother at a time of crisis.
<kissfan> yes =20
<Russ> The key is not to tell us that Journfor is upset at having to =
leave his mother, or angry at his father.  We will assume that.  Show us =
who Journfor is by How he leaves.=20
<Russ> Does that make sense to you, Kathy?=20
<kissfan> yes it does.  he goes to her and spends time with he telling =
her that he felt that he had to leave even though he didn't want to go=20
<Casey> Does he make any provisions (like with a neighbor) for her care =
while he's gone?
<Russ> It's easy to write "Journfor felt sadness as he left the town, =
maybe for the last time."  It's much harder to write a scene that shows =
that, that brings the scene to life.=20
<kissfan> she knew that the day would come but didn't want to face it =
but he made sure there was someone there for her to turn to in case she =
needed help=20
<kissfan> yes and it took me several times to write it before it sounded =
right to me=20
<Russ> Ask your characters at each choice, "So, what do you want to do?" =
and DO NOT accept their first answer.  Make them tell you three or four =
different things.  Then choose the last one and justify it.=20
<Casey> What about Journ's farewell to his mother will give him the =
strength to get through future life and death struggles to return to =
her?
<Casey> That's another question you might think about.
<Russ> Think about the time you saw a mother disciplining her child in =
public .  Maybe you thought she went a little over the top.  Did you say =
anything?  If so, What did you say?  That is a defining moment in your =
life.  It tells the rest of us a little of who you are.=20
<kissfan> yes that is one thing that I had done when writing it=20
<Casey> In one of Russ's scenarios (the argument that permits Journ to =
distance himself emotionally from his mother in order to leave), the =
emotional fallout will drive him to return to ask her forgiveness, to =
explain his emotional state, to explain that he really was not his =
father by abandoning her.
<Russ> It's easy to walk away and say to your friend "Can you believe =
that lady?"  It's much more difficult to decide you need to speak to the =
mother.  Do your characters always take the easy way out?=20
<Russ> (BTW, I walk away, fuming internally)=20
<shorty103> I'm still here, just taking all this in=20
<Russ> I hope it helps some, Rose.  Remember, Da Vinci didn't paint the =
Mona Lisa the first time he picked up a brush=20
<Casey> He didn't!!!!  I'm stunned.
<Casey> hehehe
<Russ> Isn't it amazing?=20
<shorty103> very true,  it will take some time, but I will get the hang =
of writing out these things, =20
<Casey> Writing is mostly thinking.
<kissfan> he knew why his father had left but never knew why he never =
returned.  that angered him every time he had heard his mother cry at =
night.  she still hoped that he would return.  In some ways he hoped =
that he could bring his father home again so that his mother would be =
happy again but not before he confronted him for what he did=20
<Russ> The only way to get better is to write.  It's like a muscle, it =
gets stronger with use.=20
<shorty103> and I do alot of that, but it's learning where and when to =
put it, without rambling on to much,  too much description is not good, =
as too little is not good either=20
<Russ> So, how does he feel about his father?=20
<kissfan> confused he is proud of why he left but angry just the same=20
<Russ> The other part is to read, Rose.  As much from as many different =
areas as possible.  When you read, ask yourself, "Why did the author =
choose to write it that way?  How would I have written it?"=20
<kissfan> He felt that he should have at least sent word to his family =
explaining why he never returned=20
<Russ> Go deeper, Kathy.  What is going to be the overriding emotion if =
his father walked into his room right now?  The first thing that flares =
up=20
<shorty103> but the thing is Russ,  I can't seem to read from a physical =
book,  I don't know why, but I get bored,  I do read a lot more on the =
computer than anywhere else=20
<kissfan> it would be the anger that he felt of having to grow up =
without him and putting his mother through all of what she had without =
his help=20
<Russ> that's like only exercising your right arm, Rose.  <g>=20
<shorty103> I know, but I haven't found anything that excites me to read =
a book=20
<Russ> Good, Kathy.  Now, Would he show this to his father?  would he =
throw things?  Rant?  Or would he internalize it?=20
<kissfan> then you are chosing the wrong books, Rose=20
<shorty103> true kathy=20
<kissfan> At that moment I think he would punch him in the face LOL=20
<Casey> Would he recognize his father if he walked through the door?
<Russ> Then have him punch him in the face...Maybe.  What is the next =
thing he would do?=20
<kissfan> I think that he would know him=20
<Russ> What excites you, Rose?=20
<shorty103> reading about writing=20
<kissfan> he would probably tell him off for not being around=20
<Russ> (I do work in a bookstore, perhaps I can suggest something)=20
<Russ> And the next, Kathy?=20
<kissfan> ok, Rose don't you read anything fun LOL=20
<Russ> Pick up a copy of "How to Write Fantasy and Science Fiction" by =
Orson Scott Card.=20
<kissfan> demand answers from him =20
<shorty103>  I really never gave it much thought Russ=20
<Casey> She writes mainstream, Russ.
<Casey> "How to Write Best Selling Fiction" is good, by Dean Koontz.
<Casey> The other one by Card:  "Characters & Viewpoint" is also good.
<shorty103> okay,  as soon as I get some money, that is one thing that =
is holding me back=20
<Russ> Think about it Rose.  Then ask me and I can probably suggest =
something to light your fire.=20
<Russ> Library, Rose <g>=20
<shorty103> okay,  thank you=20
<shorty103> true!=20
<Russ> Kathy, once more.  What is the next thing he might do?=20
<Russ> (BTW, Kathy, These should be getting tougher to answer <g>)=20
<kissfan> he would probably make him look into his mother's eyes and =
make him tell her why he had been gone for so long=20
<kissfan>  LOL they are HEHEE=20
<Russ> We're throwing that one out, Kathy.  Mom's not home (no easy way =
out <g>)  One more=20
<kissfan> Darn it LOL ok =20
<Russ> Hey Crip.  I saw you picked up the gauntlet.=20
<Casey> And we're still talking shop.  Boy, are you in luck!
<Casey> So he has it!
<crip> kewl=20
<Russ> Good luck, Sir.  (You're gonna need it <g>)=20
<crip> Well, Casey, you lucked out I got one nasty paper cut that'll cut =
out my typing for a day or two=20
<Casey> Great!  I mean, I'm sorry to hear that.  (I need all the help I =
can get.)
<crip> : P=20
<kissfan> lol I can't seem to think.   Give me a moment =20
<crip> Same here Russ.  it's nice that I have one polite person to =
compete against=20
<Russ> <<<Bowing>>>=20
<Casey> WHAT!  Crip's a snot!
<Russ> Kathy, What is the last thing in the world Journfor would do?=20
<Casey> I know that answer!
<Russ> (Casey, us menfolk gotta stick together <g>)=20
<Casey> It's the male bonding thing.  I know.
<kissfan> Hug his father and welcome him home =20
<Russ> That's It!=20
<kissfan> at least for a long time=20
<Goshwin> Hear hear
<shorty103> Russ, I have learned a lot by the questions you are and have =
asked kathy,  it gives me something to think about within my own story=20
<kissfan> that is why he was doing that. to help us think=20
<shorty103> he has for sure!=20
<kissfan> yep=20
<kissfan> it is a way to get to know your characters, their thoughts and =
feelings so that they come alive for you and the reader=20
<Casey> He also gave Casey an opportunity to rest her fingers, sneak off =
to the bathroom, and prop her feet up!
<shorty103> true Kathy=20
<kissfan> LOL=20
<Russ> Good, Rose.  This is how you develop your character.  Remember, =
we are, when you get down to it, only what our actions tell the rest of =
the world we are.  No matter who we believe ourselves to be inside, the =
only person people will ever know is the one you show the world=20
<Russ> You can use this to your advantage with bad guys.  Have them show =
the world one thing when all the time another is going on inside.=20
<shorty103> okay, thank you, you have shown me this, =20
<shorty103> not saying Casey hasn't either, but between the both of you, =
what a story I will write=20
<kissfan> yes like another character in my story he shows anger but it =
is jealousy that fires it=20
<Russ> I look forward to reading it, Rose.=20
<kissfan> so do I=20
<shorty103> same here, once I write it again!  LOL=20
<Casey> Have we finally gotten you fired up to begin writing again, =
Rose?
<kissfan> you better start Rose.  I try to make time for it as much as I =
can=20
<shorty103> I can't find the ms I sent Casey=20
<shorty103> getting there Casey=20
<Russ> Your turn for a while, Casey.  I need a break for food or I'll =
pass out on the keyboard (and no cracks about the easy way to win the =
contest)=20
<Casey> I could send you back the copy you sent me if you need it.
<kissfan> LOL =20
<crip> what's the easy way?=20
<Casey> *blink blink*  Russ!  How could you think that about me?
<shorty103> okay, but is there a way of keeping a copy for yourself too=20
<Russ> My dying=20
<crip> that's terrible=20
<Casey> Easy way is killing off Russ.
<crip> getting killed by those tentacles is a fate worse than death=20
<shorty103> LOL=20
<Russ> BRB...must cook!=20
<Casey> I'd need to get to a copy store.  It's too many pages to run on =
my FAX.
<crip> you leave the house?  is this possible?=20
<shorty103> okay,  I don't have a fax machine anyway, so let me know how =
much and I'll send it to you okay=20
<Casey> Customers seem to believe it's not only possible, but desirable.
<shorty103> LOL=20
<Casey> I meant, my FAX machine makes copies.  But that's an expensive =
way to make copies for something that long.  Fax film runs around $40
<shorty103> okay,  I can get 5000 sheets of paper for that amount of =
money=20
<crip> hah! all these crayons will make my manuscript look so pretty =
that contest is mine=20
<kissfan> LOL=20
<crip> and here you're worrying about a silly ol fax=20
<Casey> I just made a note to myself to do that, Rose.  I'll get it back =
to you as soon as I can.
<shorty103> okay, and thank you=20
<Russ> Casey, I leave for just a couple of minutes and whammo!  no more =
shop talk.  wattzup wit' dat?=20
<shorty103> I know I have to develop my characters more, but it confuses =
me to no end of how to do that, more so when I'm using me as the bases =
of the story=20
<Casey> Yes, Crip.  That's a little known secret of the publishing =
world.  Who told you about it?  That was supposed to be top secret.   =
Only best selling authors are supposed to know about the crayons.
<crip> And what's this about computer bombing? MAIL FRAUD????=20
<Casey> Rose, you know yourself better than anyone else . . . and you're =
not likely to sue yourself if you recognize yourself in print.
<kissfan> I was just about to say that Casey =20
<Russ> (BTW, Casey, I think I still have a copy of that virus stashed =
somewhere for just such an emergency)=20
<Casey> Great, Russ!
<Casey> What is blocking Lornia's development as a character?
<shorty103> true, but taking a little of me, and the people around me =
and putting them into the characters is a real challenge for me=20
<kissfan> your charactor should be easy Rose=20
<crip> HMPH=20
<shorty103> I know, but I don't think I have dug deep enough into myself =
to find her=20
<Russ> Can't talk...Eating=20
<kissfan> then you will have to do that=20
<shorty103> yes true, but still a challenge=20
<Casey> The first "rule" of  writing I ever heard (at 12 years old) was =
"know thyself."
<kissfan> you will have to reach in and pull out your emotions and =
feelings dealing with what you are writing and go with it.  It is like =
writing a journal =20
<shorty103> true,  I agree with that statement Casey, and I think in a =
lot of ways,  I am still finding thyself =20
<shorty103> true kathy=20
<Casey> You will not be able to write believable characters if you don't =
understand why your react the way you do when someone knocks you going =
through a door or pulls your hair.
<shorty103> true=20
<Casey> A hypothetical scenario.  Someone throws a firecracker at you.  =
It falls at your feet.  what do you do?
<Casey> (and tell me why)
<crip> throw it at Casey because she deserves it?=20
<crip> oh you were asking her, nevermind=20
<Russ> LOL=20
<Casey> The question applies to you, too, young'un. =20
<kissfan> you have to know how you would react toward everything and if =
you are basing the character on yourself then you have to know how you =
feel, think and act in any given situation that the character is in=20
<shorty103> I would kick away if I could, before it explodes, I wouldn't =
want it to hurt me=20
<Casey> Good.
<kissfan> I would jump back far enough away from it that I wouldn't get =
burnt while I cover my ears LOL=20
<Casey> (Crip, stop hiding behind that desk.  I know you're there.)
<shorty103> yes, Kathy, you make a good point=20
<Russ> I'd pick it up and throw it back at the SOB (throw a firecracker =
at me, will ya?)=20
<crip> *L* so true, Russ=20
<kissfan> Pray for a long fuse huh Russ=20
<Casey> I stepped on the burning wick but it blew up under my foot.  =
Reasoning:  I though I could put the flame out before it went off.  =
Wrong!  (True story.  This did happen to me.)
<kissfan> OUCH=20
<shorty103> I think sometimes,  I ask the wrong questions of myself to =
find an answer that is not there or to do with the story itself=20
<Russ> If it went off before I threw it, then the guy would be in real =
trouble.=20
<crip> sorry, Casey I didn't see that. I would jump behind my car.=20
<kissfan> LOL=20
<Casey> The answers show the wide variety of choices any one of us has =
available for any given situation.
<shorty103> true,  I see that=20
<Russ> I might just have to steal the rest of his 'crackers (cuz you =
know the guy has a bunch), light 'em, and shove 'em down his pants.=20
<shorty103> LOL=20
<kissfan> that is what you have to do with your charactor Rose figure =
out her reactions to the situations=20
<Casey> Ouchy, ouchy!  That hurts me and I'm not a guy.
<kissfan> LOL I want to be there to watch that, Russ=20
<Russ> Remember also, don't take the easy way out.   (hehe)=20
<kissfan> just to see the look on his face LOL=20
<crip> talk about rubbing salt into the wound=20
<shorty103> but the thing is , I've gone through, it's remembering those =
feeling=20
<kissfan> they are there Rose you have to let them come out again =20
<Russ> Is this a memoir or a novel you're writing, Rose?=20
<shorty103> some what, but I want to show others that they don't have to =
be alone in a situation that I have been through=20
<Casey> It's sometimes not figuring out what you will have your =
character do, but chose a choice, then figure out what the =
consequence(s) of that choice is.  Then pick a different choice.  What =
are those consequences?  Keep going until you've exhausted all =
possibilities.  Which works best for that story, knowing what your =
character has to achieve?
<shorty103> I would say both Russ, as it is also healing for me =20
<shorty103> okay Casey=20
<kissfan> sounds like you will have to open up to the feelings again, =
face them and put them on paper as you do so that you can use them in =
the story =20
<shorty103> yes, that is true Kathy=20
<Casey> That is not easy to do, Rose.  I've written scenes before (one =
vivid in my memory), that I cried so much through the writing I could =
not do more than a paragraph because of the feelings I had to resurrect =
to achieve reality in the piece.
<shorty103> Casey, what did you like about it,  just in the rough copy I =
sent you=20
<Russ> We all write our own experiences, no matter what genre we write =
in.  For our own lives are the only grist our mills have.  Rose, even =
when you are drawing so closely to your life, if it is a fictionalized =
account, you need to separate the person on the paper from the person =
typing it.  You can be much tougher on the person on the paper.=20
<shorty103> okay,  and I can see what you mean Russ=20
<kissfan> noo it isn't easy at all =20
<Casey> I liked the very real human issues you were dealing with and =
addressing, Rose.=20
<Casey> That's why I still feel that if you can write this story, it has =
a good chance of selling.
<shorty103> I know it's not going to be easy, and I don't want it to, =
but I do have to get it out, but in a way that other who read it can =
feel what I felt, and know that if they are within this situation, they =
can also find that light that I saw too=20
<kissfan> it sounds like it to me and I haven't even seen a sample of it =

<shorty103> does that make any sense Casey=20
<kissfan> it does to me Rose=20
<Russ> I hope that my questions have gotten the story wheels rolling in =
all your heads (except Casey's, of course<g>)
<shorty103> yes Russ they have, and thank you=20
<Casey> (Thanks, Russ!  A million paper cuts on your hands, too!)
<shorty103> LOL=20
<crip> hey leave Russs alone!=20
<Russ> G'night all and Write Hard!=20
<shorty103> wow! that was enlightening!=20
<kissfan> yep and it got you thinking about your writing again hasn't it =
Rose=20
<shorty103> yes=20
<Casey> Remember, Crip.  If I'm not abusing Russ, then you're the only =
other choice I have.
<crip> that Russ he's always so mean to you *L*=20
<kissfan> HEHEE and now Russ is gone and that leaves just you crip LOL=20
<crip> hush, kathy, nobody asked you *LOL*=20
<kissfan> HEHEE oops =20
<Casey> I'm glad you've seen the light, Crip.
<shorty103> the rock head hasn't sunk yet,  it's full of hot air, he =
floats=20
<Casey> those are interesting images:  rock head - floating.  Cool.
<crip> don't give her any ideas!!!!!=20
<kissfan> HEHEE but giving ideas are fun HEHEHE=20
<crip> buncha commies!!!!!=20
<Casey> What chapter are you on now, Crip?
<crip> i don't remember=20
<shorty103> three against one,  interesting odds here=20
<Casey> Isn't it the first chapter?
<Casey> Yeah.  I remember you saying.
<kissfan> sounds like he hasn't gotten far and don't want to admit it =
LOL=20
<crip> nice try=20
<Casey> unfortunately, the rat is on chapter 4 or so.
<crip> oh and i hate to break the bad news to you but i did find a =
horrible snag with the story=20
<kissfan> Oh no=20
<Casey> A serious snag?
<crip> oh yes=20
<Casey> Is it fixable?
<crip> i'm afraid the story just can't be told within the confines of a =
single book=20
<kissfan> OUCH is it fixable=20
<Casey> Is it fixable.
<crip> it will have to be 2 or maybe 3=20
<crip> possibly a whole series=20
<shorty103> he lead the troop in the wrong direction again!=20
<crip> what a shame=20
<crip> ow these darn horns=20
<Casey> That still makes it acceptable according to contest rules.
<crip> i know=20
<shorty103> don't hear a thing crip=20
<crip> you have to help me with the synopsis=20
<crip> just how to write one not the actual one=20
<Casey> (The horns growing from his head, Rose)
<crip> *LOL*=20
<shorty103> that's why he hears echo's all the time!=20
<crip> now casey i don't know what you're implying with that=20
<kissfan> yep mixing with all that hot air HEHEHE=20
<shorty103> HEHEHE=20
<Casey> Casey's dying. =20
<shorty103> why, tired?=20
<crip> what a shame=20
<crip> put buddy row on we'll torture him!=20
<Casey> No.  Crip asked for help with a synopsis. =20
<crip> ??=20
<Casey> I don't understand synopses in any way, shape or form.
<crip> OH NO!=20
<crip> how about Russ?  think he'd know?=20
<Casey> I flunked synopsis in writing class, and no one has taught me =
how to write one since.
<crip> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH=20
<Casey> I'll ask.
<crip> there goes my name on the bestseller list for two whole years.=20
<crip> *L*=20
<Casey> He wants to get together with me tomorrow. =20
<shorty103> but wouldn't you write one after the story?  or before the =
story?=20
<crip> ok=20
<crip> i'm not sure i even know what one is=20
<shorty103> isn't like an outline=20
<Casey> If you know where your story is going, theoretically, you can =
write a synopsis of it.
<shorty103> but with more detail=20
<crip> ah=20
<crip> hmmm=20
<Casey> It explains what happens in your story.
<crip> that doesn't sound so bad but i know it's not that simple=20
<shorty103> brb, looking up the word=20
<Casey> I encounter problems because the psychological goings-on in my =
stories are as crucial to its ending as the action is--if not moreso, =
because of the character changes they bring about.
<crip> same here=20
<Casey> So I trip up all over the place trying to combine action with =
why it's significant.
<crip> *having heart palpatations*=20
<crip> if casey might have a problem what's in store for poor crip? =
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH=20
<Casey> Casey is NOT all knowing.  Contrary to some rumors you may have =
heard.
<kissfan> I think I would be hiding if I was you LOl sounds like you =
have your work cut out for you=20
<crip> STOP SAYING THAT!!!!=20
<crip> WHERE'S THAT DELETE BUTTON?????=20
<Casey> Calm down Crip!  Calm down.  Take a deep breath.
<kissfan> LOL=20
<crip> Breathe in.=20
<crip> Breathe out.=20
<Casey> Now another.  Don't forget to breathe.
<kissfan> just relax I know you can do it =20
<crip> ok=20
<Casey> Feeling better now?
<crip> BUT I DON'T WANT TO HAVE THIS BABY NOW!!!!=20
<crip> oh=20
<crip> oops=20
<crip> yes much=20
<kissfan> LOL=20
<Casey> LOL!
<Casey> He's recovered. =20
<Casey> *Whack!*
<crip> OW!!!=20
<shorty103> synopses=20
<shorty103>  Definition:  a short statement giving a general view, the =
main principles, or the sequence of events of an argument, article, =
narrative, or the like; summary; abstract.=20
<shorty103> sorry,  I didn't know it would do that=20
<crip> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH=20
<crip> purple letters!!!!!=20
<Casey> It came through!
<crip> oh nevermind=20
<shorty103> yes, okay, good,  I didn't see the first time so I did it =
again and that is what I got=20
<Casey> See, even the definition gives too many choices about what is =
included.
<shorty103> true=20
<kissfan> the definition is more confusing than anything=20
<Casey> What I've heard is that you shouldn't give the ending in a =
synopsis--to make the publisher want to read your novel, but I wonder =
about that.
<Casey> Why would a publisher ask for a synopsis if not to find out how =
the story ends? =20
<shorty103> well, that is what I found , how and what we do with this =
info is up to us I guess=20
<crip> i was wondering about that too.  We need help, Casey!!!!=20
<kissfan> yes we do.  =20
<Casey> Anyone know of a reference book anywhere that contains actual =
synopses?
<crip> good idea=20
<shorty103> I know what you mean, it is confusing and yes,  it would be =
nice to be clear on it,  so we all know=20
<crip> will search local library =20
<kissfan> no but will look for one=20
<Casey> Report back with any success, Crip.  I need to learn this mystic =
skill, too.  Otherwise, I'll never sell peanuts, much less a novel.
<crip> will do, chief=20
<shorty103> and share it with us too!=20
<Casey> Here's the exploding button.  Press the raised design to =
detonate it.  And your spy camera.
<kissfan> I think once someone finds out we should have a class on =
writing one that way we all can benefit by it=20
<crip> excellent idea=20
<shorty103> yes, that is=20
<Casey> Agree. =20
<shorty103> well, at least you have a description of one casey to start =
off with=20
<Casey> I wonder if I still have the one synopsis I wrote for Moons' =
Kiss two years ago?  We could sacrifice it to the gods of revision and =
improvement.
<shorty103> LOL=20
<crip> we'll be nice if for learning purposes=20
<crip> or at least i will=20
<crip> try=20
<crip> I=20
<crip> think=20
<shorty103> same here, you better crip!  =20
<kissfan> yep for sure=20
<Casey> I'm so accustomed to your stripes, spots would look funny on =
you, Crip.
<shorty103> LOL=20
<kissfan> LOL ya really=20
<crip> ??=20
<crip> what do you mean stripes???=20
<Casey> I thought forensics units required inmates to wear the same =
uniforms as the rest of the inmates in the general population.
<crip> hey I get special privileges for all the embez...i mean nice =
written letters for the warden.=20
<Casey> I'm so pleased you're keeping up your writing skills.
<crip> these dear Abby letters are great practice.=20
<Casey> Where you explain how your troubled childhood has resulted in =
your current inability to assimilate into society?
<crip> definitely=20
<Casey> Crip, do you realize that while we're enjoying one another's
company, Russ is working on his novel?
<crip> we need a secret weapon
<Casey> He needs another child.  How do we get him pregnant?
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> LOL
<crip> i guess we'll just have to sacrifice you, Casey.  Go on over
there! *LOL*
<kissfan> Or make sure all the kids come down sick again
<Casey> I can't.  I'm sterile.
<crip> DANG
<Casey> The kids STAY sick!  (Poor kids.  Poor Russ.)
<shorty103> there's always adoption
<kissfan> ya I know
<Casey> Looks like you get the job by default, Crip.
<Casey> Hey!  Crip can be Russ's long lost child!  The one he had when
he was 8 and never knew he had!
<kissfan> ya a while ago
<Casey> That's it!
<kissfan> LOL interesting idea
<crip> EWWWW
<Casey> Show up on his door, and when he opens it, say, "Hi Dad!"
<crip> yeah there's a heart attack right there
<Casey> He'll be in therapy until way past June 30.
<shorty103> LOL
<crip> then i show up on Casey's doorstep
<crip> er
<crip> i mean uh
<Casey> LOL!
<crip> nevermind : )
<Casey> It's hard for Russ to write now.  what we need is "imposible to
write."  hard doesn't work.
<kissfan> yes true
<crip> Casey, I do have an important question about writing if I may
ask?
<Casey> Okay.  I'm composed.  What's the serious question?
<crip> In my story, I am trying as hard as I can not to describe their
surroundings, geography, etc. because it is an important part of the
story.
<crip> However I do plan on explaining it in the last third of the book.
is this a bad idea?
<crip> I mean is holding back the info a bad idea. 
<Casey> You are getting some description in the novel already.
<crip> a little but there is definitely a bigger picture
<crip> however by not telling about leaves a bit of surprise to the
reader and the main character=20
<crip> I even have it mapped out in my head.  how sad is that? *L*
<Casey> I've wondered why there is no description of the surrounding
area, but the facts being presented are so strange, my attention has
been focused on learning more.
<crip> you think so? hmmm...
<crip> BTW, CASEY, what is this almost lovey dovey stuff with M-Man and
Yutrenta? HMMMMMMM???=20
<Casey> Now you have me confused.  Which scene?
<crip> end of chapt. 5=20
<Casey> I had him bitter at the end of chpt. 5.
<Casey> Wasn't he talking to Shurna?
<crip> maybe it was the middle=20
<crip> I don't remember=20
<crip> all I know is that girl's too smart to go along with that =
bonehead=20
<Casey> (I don't remember Manerra talking to Yutrenta!)
<crip> maybe i'm just really confused=20
<crip> sorry=20
<Casey> It makes me want to reread what I wrote.
<Casey> Yutrenta is the closest thing Manerra has to a mother, but that =
hasn't really been brought out yet.
<crip> oh then I guess I'm really wrong=20
<Casey> Aya used to be the bonehead!  Now Manerra's a bonehead?
<crip> Aya is still a bonehead=20
<Casey> My my, how feelings change.
<crip> HMPH=20
<Casey> (chortle!)
<kissfan> lol=20
<crip> I just wanna hear that thing talk=20
<Casey> I loved the fact that you weakened in your feelings toward Aya =
at the exact spot I hoped you would.=20
<crip> why do you have to write so well???? I WANNA WIN!!!=20
<crip> *LOL*=20
<kissfan> HEHEE that makes it more of a challenge for you=20
<crip> but i don't want a challenge!!!=20
<crip> *L*=20
<Casey> You have already--in that 1 page snippet you got.  He cusses a =
lot.
<crip> I mean besides that=20
<kissfan> LOL sorry but it looks like you have one anyway=20
<crip> I'm going to start messing with my characters a bit so hopefully =
they get a bit more interesting=20
<Casey> Hey, winning means MONEY!  This is deadly.
<kissfan> yep it is  LOL=20
<crip> so true=20
<Casey> Of all my characters, he required the most research.  He better =
turn out well!  He was/is a pain in the toosh.
<crip> really? wow=20
<Casey> Yes.  I had to do a lot of medical research for him.
<Casey> I know more about infections than I ever wanted to know.  I =
can't tell the other subjects without revealing too much and spoiling =
your fun.
<crip> Why don't you just add a bad character?=20
<crip> some guy out in the middle of the desert with wacky one-liners?=20
<crip> i bet it would dest...i mean improve the book=20
<crip> SHOOT!=20
<Casey> You won't get to the bad characters until the gang reaches the =
Shangren Oasis where there are other people.
<crip> you're no fun.=20
<kissfan> lol=20
<crip> ah=20
<crip> did you ever read chapt. 3?  i know you had read some of two=20
<Casey> Oh YES!  I've read everything you sent me.  More!   More!
<crip> you don't have time to read, you're too busy writing remember?=20
<crip> do you see any big flaws?=20
<crip> you are good at spotting those=20
<Casey> The ONLY suggestion I can give is:  work on the dialogue.  Your =
characters talk too much.
<crip> they barely said anything before chapt. 3?  I will try to trim =
some of it.=20
<Casey> They explain too much to each other.  Explanations can be =
slipped in, but it takes some working and reworking to get them in =
barely noticed by the reader.
<crip> ok=20
<crip> thanks for the tip=20
<Casey> (For a writer, I'm terrible at explaining what I mean.)
<crip> nah=20
<Casey> It's not so much the volume they speak as what they say to each =
other.
<kissfan> I hate to do tis guys but I have to try to get some sleep =20
<kissfan> talk to you guys later and sweet dreams to you both=20
<Casey> understand, Kathy.  I drank tea at 8:30 tonight.  I won't sleep =
for 3 days.
<crip> I think I know exactly where that needs to be worked on.  Helps =
with the problem I had on chapt. 4=20
<Casey> Goodnight, Kathy.  Brilliant writing to you.
<crip> nite kathy=20
<Casey> Am glad that helps.  I'm not sure I can help more without =
pulling up a section and going through it line by line.
<crip> it's cool.  I'll edit tomorrow and send back.  =20
<crip> quick question if you can remember, any characters that you plain =
don't like? not that there are many.=20
<crip> i don't mean as in hate but just don't enjoy reading=20
<Casey> I'm seeing delineation between good guys and not-so-nice guys, =
but that is exactly what you want.
<Casey> The guy who clubbed your female protagonist is not so nice.
<crip> he he=20
<Casey> I thought they weren't supposed to harm a hair on her head.  How =
does he get away with bludgeoning her?
<crip> not to let anything go but I love it that people were only paying =
attention to that=20
<crip> he he =20
<crip> you'll find out=20
<crip> bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha=20
<Casey> I noticed that she didn't drop.  It took for-ever for the drug =
to knock her out.
<crip> i wonder why=20
<crip> hmmmm=20
<Casey> I suspect some reason behind it.  That you WILL explain in a =
future chapter, won't you?
<crip> probably around chapt 6=20
<crip> maybe a little later=20
<Casey> Which also will be finished tomorrow? (you rat!)
<crip> not with this finger=20
<crip> i need to edit more=20
<Casey> How badly did you cut it?
<crip> right across the tip of it=20
<Casey> ugh!
<crip> not bad but it's a pain in the rear=20
<Casey> Also a pain when you type, I bet.
<crip> i'm typing a bit slower tonight but its ok=20
<Casey> I'm thinking more about your withholding evidence question.
<crip> evidence?=20
<Casey> (description)
<Casey> Make sure you slip in foreshadowing, so it is not a 100% blow =
from the left to the reader.
<crip> you'll see some at the beginning of chapt. 4 =20
<crip> it's not much but people will get an idea=20
<Casey> Okay.  good.
<crip> without a long explanation since those characters have already =
lived in it=20
<Casey> It's the same principle of:  the heroine can't whip a laser gun =
out of her bra and kill the bad guy just the exact moment when every =
other maneuver has failed.  The reader will feel cheated that way.
<crip> exactly=20
<Casey> Unless the reader knows from 3 chapters back that she always =
carries the laser gun in her bra--and why.  Then the only question =
becomes, why didn't she use it earlier?
<crip> BTW, i forgot to ask did you think the speech at the beginning of =
chapt. 2 was too long?=20
<Casey> No, I didn't.  Not at all.  I really liked that part. =20
<crip> ok=20
<crip> just making sure=20
<Casey> It did take me a few paragraphs to figure out where THESE people =
came from, but I recovered.
<crip> oh sorry=20
<Casey> Big jump there, but I'm not sure how to ease the transition, =
unless you begin with a sentence description first.
<crip> yeah shifting POV's is a pain=20
<Casey> something like, The room was crowded tonight.
<crip> okay, more editing, sounds good.=20
<Casey> Yes, it is difficult.  One of the many, cute little challenges =
writers face every day.
<crip> yee=3Dhaw=20
<Casey> (Wanna see my war metals and ribbons?)
<crip> *L*=20
<crip> just no matter how bad it is don't make me change my fav/ =
character=20
<crip> or change Aya for that matter either=20
<Casey> Colin's your Fav character?
<crip> ???? uh no=20
<crip> I like him but no.=20
<Casey> Which one is?  The commander guy?
<crip> Commander Rush is my fav.=20
<Casey> that was my second pick.
<crip> If this works out after the series I want to write a stand alone =
book on his early days=20
<crip> I'm surprised you didn't say the girl=20
<Casey> She's being used as a pawn. =20
<crip> yes and no=20
<crip> i'm glad you think that though=20
<Casey> I didn't think you'd become emotionally attached to someone you =
were going to cut apart in the next chapter.
<crip> who did i cut apart?=20
<Casey> there was talk of "surgery."
<Casey> Not happened yet.
<crip> will be explained in a very odd way=20
<crip> look forward to writing that part=20
<Casey> I figured as much.  And with your love of blood and gore, I'm =
sure you are.
<crip> of all the characters, I connect the most with her if that is =
frightening enough *L*=20
<Casey> Believe it or not, I can understand why you do.
<crip> even though I wish to be reincarnated as the commander in another =
life=20
<Casey> The classroom scene was very well done.  I flashbacked to =
classrooms I'd been in through that scene. =20
<crip> you're being so helpful tonight, granny, aren't you tired yet?=20
<crip> classroom?=20
<Casey> Where Rush is giving directions (reminders) of protocol.
<crip> oh=20
<crip> well thank you=20
<Casey> The briefing session.=20
<crip> I like the briefing because like you said I need for the reader =
to know what's at their disposal weapon wise=20
<Casey> That's what makes writing believable--allows the reader to =
identify with the character, by giving scenes you've experienced =
yourself.
<Casey> The briefing scene also sets Rush's personality and character.
<crip> It did? Oh right it did :)=20
<Casey> Hey, this is the only way we get feedback (as writers) of the =
success or failure of our scenes:  whether they produce the desired =
emotion in a reader.
<Casey> If I were to laugh at a place where I should have been fearful, =
you'd know it needed more work.
<crip> I must admit that Aya scene took me off guard.=20
<Casey> Which one?
<crip> oh good i didn't want you to laugh when he hit her with the club=20
<crip> the one where I didn't hate Aya so much=20
<Casey> he he.  That was my intention.  You'd been seeing Aya through =
M--'s eyes up to that point.  It was one of your first glimpses of Aya =
as Aya, without Manerra's interpretations.
<crip> hopefully that won't happen again and somebody'll accidentally =
stone him or something=20
<Casey> LOL!  You aren't weakening toward him by the end of chapter 5?
<crip> nope sorry=20
<crip> should I be?=20
<crip> I should reread it again sometime=20
<crip> although I want Manerra to fall of a cliff so Valdyne can rule =
the planet=20
<Casey> I'm not going to tell you how you should or shouldn't feel =
toward any of my characters.  I just need you to experience whatever =
feelings come and tell me about them.
<crip> good, my feelings exactly=20
<crip> i will, trust me=20
<Casey> Then we have a pact.
<crip> *spits* put her there=20
<Casey> Stuffs tissues into hand first.  Here.  *Shakes*
<crip> he he =20
<crip> yeah, like you said never tell me what I want to hear but what
you honestly think.  I think our writing will be much better for it.
<Casey> I grew up with my mother telling me that my writing stank, I
needed to go into art instead.  Then everyone who read my work
(unrelated to me) said my writing was great.
<Casey> Not until someone actually had the courage and guts to explain
why my writing wasn't working for him, did I ever begin to improve.
<Casey> I know the frustration of dishonesty or pleasantries (both are
BAD), and I'm determined not to do the same to any other writer.
<Casey> Do you consider writing a glamorous job?  (I don't!)
<crip> honestly i don't know about glamorous but i think it would be a
pleasant job, for me at least
<Casey> I find it humiliating--humbling--to have to bare your soul and
guts to anyone who might pick up your story.
<crip> yeah
<Casey> I find it exhilarating--the discovery of connections and
possibilities and solutions I would not have discovered while framing
pictures or washing dishes, if that was my avocation rather than
writing.
<crip> oh definitely
<Casey> I love the discipline that requires I read nonfiction on every
topic imaginable.
<Casey> (all I've ever wanted to do is learn things)
<Casey> I've found it lonely.  Extremely so at times.
<crip> i remember someone telling me a while ago that i should tune
myself in with the real world more often. i explained to them with the
possibility of selling all my old star wars toys for a fortune on ebay
there is no real world anymore
<crip> it can't be when there are people out there that could care less
about things you care about the most
--------------------------------------