CHAT ARCHIVE - 6-17-00, Lies! Damned Lies!

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Jun 18 00:17:01 2000

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<Casey> I'm going to begin and let the late comers fend for themselves.
<Casey> Did anyone notice the applied propaganda used in the topic
announcement?
<shorty103> I didn't pay attention, sorry
<Sea Witch> Uh...Witchie didn't read the topic announcement...only the time
and date.
<Casey> Propaganda isn't about lies, it's actually about telling the truth.
<Casey> Sortta.
<kissfan> LOL ya I did catch that HEHEE
<Sea Witch> In a twisted sense.
<Casey> Slanted truth--not outright lies.
<Casey> Exactly, Witchie.
<kissfan> just enough truth to make it believable
<Sea Witch> Unless you are a Nazi called Goebbels
<Sea Witch> In which case you have a license to print outrageous lies
<Casey> Propaganda has as much to do with what is not said as what is said.
<Casey> How is propaganda used most frequently today?
<Sea Witch> To slag off political opponents
<Casey> Right, Witchie. In politics.
<Sea Witch> and to score against other countries
<shorty103> LOL
<Casey> There are those, like Al Gore, who will never make good politicians
because he doesn't understand the fine points of propaganda.
<Casey> He's lied and been caught in lies, so his credibility is shot.
<Sea Witch> The Brits are very good at it. They sanctimoniously condemn
Irish terrorists while bombing the shit our of eastern European civilians
<Casey> To use propaganda effectively, you can't be caught lying.
<Casey> It's their reasons for doing so that place them in the right while
Irish terrorists are wrong.
<Sea Witch> It didn't hurt Bill Clinton though. He came out on top
<Sea Witch> Murder is murder. Doesn't matter how well wrapped up and
presented it is
<Casey> LOL! Maybe from some viewpoint, Witchie. Around here, few people
listen to a word he says anymore.
<Casey> (I was wickedly considering the positions he's known to have used
when you made that comment.)
<shorty103> LOL, I don't listen to it, so I can't say one way or the other
on that topic
<Sea Witch> He's treated as a minor folk hero over here. Just goes to show
that the Brit public can be rather stupid sometimes
<Sea Witch> I thought he preferred the missionary position....on his
knees!!!!!!
<Casey> That's for his partner, SW.
<Casey> He's too upstanding to bend.
<Sea Witch> Well, he gave her that cigar somehow didn't he? BIG GRIN
<Sea Witch> Maybe that's his trouble.
<Casey> Propaganda is factual information expressed in such a way as to sway
people to a particular action, point of view, or submission.
<kissfan> ya and I have told many people that if they go to the White House
never take a cigar if offered. . . you don't know where it has been
<Sea Witch> So, what's his pulling line then? Is this a banana in my pocket
or am I just pleased to see you?
<Sea Witch> No, you only reject the ones that reek of tuna, Kathy
<kissfan> LOL that too HEHEE
<Casey> I was amused by definition #4 in my dictionary (when I looked up
“propaganda.") Rom. Cath. Church: a committee of cardinals, established in
1622 by Pope Gregory XV to supervise foreign missions and the training of
the priests.
<Sea Witch> Sounds about right.
<kissfan> LOL yep it does
<Sea Witch> I hope I didn't scare Rose off.
<Casey> Nope. She's been up since 7 a.m. She went out of town today.
<kissfan> no she has been up and traveling since 7 am
<Sea Witch> OK
<Casey> How a thing is said can be as evasive as not answering a question.
<Casey> Some evasion techniques are: answering a question with a question.
<kissfan> LOL I am good at that one HEHEE
<Casey> Harold used to do that to me all the time. It would make me crazy.
Luckily, he's nearly broken of the habit.
<crip> a truly broken man
<crip> oh er nevermind
<Sea Witch> Yeah, I do that. It bugs the hell out of people. Being an
ex-cop I am also a trained interrogator. I can get people to talk before
they realize what's happened.
<kissfan> LOL I love to do that to Dwayne he still gets tongue tied when I
do it
<Casey> Maybe you have some good insights to offer us tonight, SW.
<Sea Witch> I would call my technique persuasion rather than propaganda
<Casey> Going off on a rant and ending up on a totally different topic
works, too.
<Casey> A technique by any other name . . .
<Sea Witch> Yeah, we females are good at that sort of thing. Kinda goes
with the territory
<kissfan> LOL yep done that too! I knew I should have been in politics
<Casey> Obfuscation: never quite answering the question asked, but whipping
out your vocabulary and sounding like you've answering what was asked.
<Sea Witch> We have a new name for propagandists (is that right?) over here.
They're called spin doctors. Basically it's just a polite name for bullshit
artists
<Casey> And using a lot of words to explain the fact you're not saying
anything.
<Casey> The same term is used over here, too.
<Casey> Well, propagandist sounds like a dirty name.
<Sea Witch> They spin so fast it's funny they don't puke
<Casey> "doctor" adds some pretense of intelligence.
<kissfan> LOL ya a proctologist HEHEE
<Sea Witch> Any sentence containing the words intelligence and politician is
an physical aberration.
<Casey> They're mutually exclusive words.
<Sea Witch> That's the phrase I was trying to think of. Thanks Casey
<Casey> You're welcome.
<Casey> Unless you insert a 'no' in that sentence. Then it works.
<Sea Witch> Heh heh
<Casey> Okay. An exercise. An easy one.
<crip> uh oh
<kissfan> lol ok
<Casey> John's in the hospital but you've been told not to tell anyone.
Someone asks if John's in the hospital. How do you reply?
<Sea Witch> That he's in good hands?
<crip> The voices told me not to speak to you?
<Casey> That reminds me of an advertisement, SW!
<Casey> "You're in good hands, with Allstate."
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> That would lead the questioner to ask what the heck you're talking
about, SW.
<Casey> you don't want additional questions. You want to put someone off.
<Sea Witch> You ain't lying but you ain't giving much away either
<Casey> "How would I know?"
<kissfan> that you haven't heard but will try to find out
<Casey> (You're putting the responsibility back upon the questioner with
that question.)
<Casey> Good, Kathy.
<Sea Witch> You just stole my words (or some similar ones) I was about to
say..."John's in the hospital?"
<Casey> Good! Simply reiterating the question.
<Sea Witch> You are still technically not lying
<Casey> Exactly.
<crip> hey that was a trick question. no fair!
<Casey> "I haven't seen John for . . ." however many days its been since
you last saw him.
<kissfan> Why do you ask? have you heard something that I haven't?
<Casey> That could technically be lying, Kathy.
<Sea Witch> Or you can say, "I saw John in the mall this morning." You just
don't explain that you mean your other friend John
<Casey> Good, too, Witchie. Deliberate misunderstanding.
<Casey> "Did someone say he was? What happened?"
<kissfan> or why do you ask have you heard anything that I should know
about?
<Casey> Good, Kathy.
<Casey> The points we're bringing up are: --selective
facts, --slant, --omission of information, -- misleading or deliberate
misunderstanding, and --projecting ignorance/innocence.
<Sea Witch> I think we have ourselves a pretty good bunch of liars present
tonight.
<Casey> Yes, indeed, Witchie. But then, we're good at everything we do.
:-)
<Casey> (Is anyone ever going to believe anything any of us say from now on,
after this class?)
<Sea Witch> The art of a good liar is to ensure that your lie contains a
grain of truth.
<Casey> Exactly. Blatant lies are too easily found out, and too difficult
for the liar to keep straight from day to day.
<Sea Witch> When you deal with liars on a day to day basis they soon learn
that you can't shit someone who has a turd in every pocket
<Sea Witch> Yeah. A good memory helps
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> A good memory helps in both positions: being the liar or being lied
to.
<Sea Witch> We have both in my family. My brother and father are world
class pathological liars
<Sea Witch> They just keep getting found out is all
<Casey> Then we have the Clinton ploy: Batting your eyes and claiming that
your understanding of a word was totally different from the questioner's
definition. (Definition #14 in the dictionary as opposed to the common use
of the word.)
<Sea Witch> Or batting you eyes and selling your story to the newspaper
before your husband gets the chance
<Casey> That, too, Witchie. First to bat has an advantage over slow-pokes.
<Sea Witch> Does that make Clinton a slow poke?
<Casey> The English language is replete with words that assist the art of
lying. (LOL! You're distracting me again.)
<crip> ewwww
<Casey> Like Witchie's so graciously demonstrated.
<Sea Witch> Oh god the dog has just declared war....gas warfare....toxic gas
warfare. Ewwwwww
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> Words and phrases with double meanings are many.
<Casey> Beyond connotations, there's dictionary definitions that flatly
contradict each other.
<Casey> Take the word bi-weekly. How often does something happen when it
happens bi-weekly?
<crip> twice a week
<kissfan> lol twice I think
<Sea Witch> Yeah. over here we call a lie "being economical with the
actualitie (French)"
<crip> or every two weeks?
<Sea Witch> I read it as fortnightly
<Casey> Both, Crip.
<crip> oh.*scratches head* oh.
<Casey> The dictionary tells us bi-weekly is both twice a week and twice a
month.
<Casey> So the word alone does not tell us actually how frequently something
occurs.
<kissfan> those double meanings don't you just love them
<crip> so what does it mean when something happens twice a week every two
weeks?
<Sea Witch> only how stupid the language can be sometimes
<Casey> Heaven only knows, Crip.
<crip> ok
<Sea Witch> Depends on the relationship you have with your partner. One
means you’re lucky and the other means you go short
<Casey> Our tendency in speaking and communicating is to assume the common
definition holds. Politicians and liars (good ones) depend upon that fact.
<Casey> Intention of the communicator is rarely questioned.
<Sea Witch> Unless you are a cynic
<crip> a cynic? good thing there are none around here!
<Casey> LOL!
<Casey> If something is argued on facts, it is assumed to be true.
<Sea Witch> Someone please tell Crip to take off his blindfold will ya
<Casey> He is the cynic, SW. Watch his eyes. He's batting them.
<crip> blinkityblinkblink not me!!
<Sea Witch> I can do that. Now where did I put that hockey stick?
<Casey> No violence now!
<Sea Witch> I wanna bat some eyes!
<Casey> BTW, there's a good discussion on aesthetics begun over on Edge
Speaking for anyone interested.
<Casey> And I didn't begin it, for a change!
<Sea Witch> anaethetics? Can I bring my bat?
<Casey> (Don't they eat a lot of mosquitoes?)
<Casey> Sure. Bats permitted.
<Casey> Even inanimate ones.
<Sea Witch> Oh goody
<Sea Witch> Well they didn't snack on the ones that snacked on me yesterday
<Casey> In arguing a propagandist's position.
<Casey> Argue your direction or slant.
<Casey> anticipate objections and prepare to counter them.
<Casey> give a perversion slant to the most appealing/desirable of your
opponents counter arguments.
<Sea Witch> Something like, "Global warming won't destroy the Earth. It'll
turn it into a tropical paradise!"
<kissfan> and it will help with new beachfront property too
<Sea Witch> Unless you live in Europe. The people there will get their
arses frozen off because the Gulf Stream will get switched off by all those
melting icebergs.
<Casey> For a real-life example: in the conjugal visit debate here in
Virginia a few years back (okay, a lot of years back), the proponents argued
that such visitation would strengthen marital relationships for the men
incarcerated. The prison administration countered that they "Will not turn
our prisons into a whore house." (Inmates allowed sex only with wives.
Such sex constitutes prostitution. Who can men have sex with if not their
wives then?)
<Casey> Yep, SW. Good argument.
<Casey> Argue benefits of compliance.
<Sea Witch> They don't think highly of wives in Virginia do they
<Casey> Make even perverse actions (mass murder, genocide, prostitution)
seem not only socially acceptable, but desirable.
<Casey> We're the scum of the earth.
<crip> blinkityblinkblinkblinkblink
<Casey> Hush, Crip.
<Casey> They don't like mothers, either.
<crip> oops nervous reaction
<Sea Witch> Yeah, but scum can rise to the surface and choke off what lies
beneath
<Casey> Yep.
<Casey> A really cool tactic to use are pauses.
<Casey> "I do love. Only John . . . has a temper."
<Casey> (Does she love John or hate him?)
<Sea Witch> Either she should shut up or borrow my bat!
<Casey> That one I learned from William Shakespeare in Romeo and Juliet--the
scene where Juliet is "denying" her love for Romeo while her mother is
questioning her about him.
<Casey> Bats are not good diplomacy tools, SW.
<Sea Witch> That's standard teenage evasion
<Sea Witch> What's diplomacy?
<Casey> Nevermind!
<Sea Witch> Isn't it some kind of sauropod?
<Casey> Another exercise. We have the mother-child bond. The government
wants to place all children in day care, but they have to get past the
objection and guilt of the women who want to raise their own children.
(Imagine that aberration!) Argue the perversion of raising your own child.
<Sea Witch> I used to rename the friends my mother didn't approve of.
<Sea Witch> A caring mother is a working mother!
<crip> a true oxymoron
<crip> approving parents
<Casey> Mothers who don't work increase the Welfare drain on states.
<Sea Witch> Er.. sorry. That should have read...A caring mother is one
claiming on the State
<Sea Witch> Mothers are cheaper than nurseries!
<Casey> Ahhh, the glories of Socialism!
<Casey> No, no, SW! We've got to get those little buggers AWAY from their
mothers.
<crip> no sarcasm in that statement
<Casey> Why, NO!
<Casey> *Appears shocked and horrified.*
<Sea Witch> Then I rest by my first offering...if I'm acting for the state
that is
<Casey> yeah, you're acting for the state.
<Sea Witch> Then the State is in a worse state than I thought
<Casey> he he!
<Casey> Children raised by their parents are shown to have underdeveloped
conflict resolution skills.
<crip> in English please
<Sea Witch> You mean they haven't been taught to beat out the brains of
fellow nursery mates
<Casey> (They don't get to witness daily physical fights, so how can they
possibly learn to cope with meanies?)
<Casey> Exactly!
<kissfan> a child not in day care will end up behind everyone else when he
enters school. this will give you free time to work
<Casey> Good, Kathy.
<Sea Witch> I never went to nursery but no one messes with me
<crip> try having conflicting parents with one telling a child to fight and
one to talk things out
<crip> great way to get confused
<kissfan> LOL slow tonight but getting there
<Casey> That's your problem, SW! You didn't learn how to get along with
others. You're a social bully now.
<Sea Witch> Naw.. just a plain old antisocial bitch
<Casey> We will eliminate that problem, Crip, when we eliminate parents.
Consistency. Everything the same.
<kissfan> yes children need the "social interaction" they will get from day
care
<crip> excellent solution
<Casey> Think of all that stress on stay-at-home parents! Lower your
psychiatric bills. Send the kids to day care!
<Casey> Take fewer drugs as a result of your lower stress level.
<Sea Witch> Who foots the nursery bills?
<Casey> The working parents, of course.
<kissfan> Let alone the stress on the poor aunts that must baby sit if you
don't send them HEHEE
<Casey> But they CAN pay that bill now.
<Casey> With their higher incomes from a two-working parents household. No
problem.
<Casey> Yes, Kathy!
<Sea Witch> F*** that. I discovered I was paying the nursery most of my
salary. My reason for opting to stay at home was financial
<kissfan> LOL
<crip> my my such language for such a civilized group
<Casey> Civ-- ?! Oh, yeah.
<Casey> You're trying to interject logic and reason into this argument, SW.
The government has stopped listening now.
<Sea Witch> And I've barricaded myself into my home. They want the kid then
they pay the bills!
<Sea Witch> Hand me a gun someone. The swines are kicking down my
doorrrrrrrrrrr
<Casey> Homes are dirtier when kids are there every day. You'll get cleaner
homes.
<Sea Witch> Not true. Springers make more mess than kids
<Casey> You make a terrible State employee, SW.
<Casey> The whole government structure I've created is crumbling.
<kissfan> LOL
<Sea Witch> Yeah, they found out to their cost when I worked as a civil
servant
<Casey> You're fired, but I'll take the Springers.
<Casey> I'm working on this secret gas warfare plan . . .
<Sea Witch> They had "anarchist" listed on my "hobbies" file
<Casey> LOL!
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> A woman after my own heart.
<Casey> I mean, For Shame!
<Sea Witch> heh heh
<Sea Witch> I couldn't fight for the state. I'm not that expert a liar
<Casey> I have too active a conscience. I couldn't work for them either.
<Casey> You know the saying, "follow the money"?
<Sea Witch> So, what's your next exercise?
<crip> show me the money?
<Casey> In propaganda and political agendas, the saying might be, "follow
the power" or the personal benefits.
<Sea Witch> Here you go. Witchie proffers a couple of quid and some small
change.
<Sea Witch> Follow the bribes and favours more like
<Casey> That's following the money--which leads as surely to power grabbing,
too.
<Casey> Greed.
<crip> what do we know about power though?
<crip> greed on the other hand
<Casey> Good question, Crip. What is power?
<Casey> What does it get the wielder?
<crip> getting a small child to stop whining
<crip> an enormous ego
<Casey> Yep.
<Casey> Isn't that, an ability to get others to do what you want them to do?
<Sea Witch> Having a trough large enough to feed a lot of greedy snouts
<crip> depends
<Sea Witch> Corruption is the ultimate power
<crip> power is a tricky thing
<Casey> Which frequently includes, getting people to give you money.
<Sea Witch> But you have to filter some back in return.
<crip> evangelists have lots of power then *L*
<Casey> They do, Crip. And that's absolutely correct, Witchie.
<Sea Witch> Only because people can be incredibly stupid
<Casey> When creating powerful characters, especially evil ones, remember
that their followers must be getting something for their servitude.
<Sea Witch> Cynics on the other hand.....
<Sea Witch> Job satisfaction?
<Casey> If there's not a benefit, there's not credibility.
<Sea Witch> Glamour?
<Casey> What does glamour bring?
<Sea Witch> Getting to fire your pistol and make holes in the saloon
ceiling?
<Sea Witch> Kudos!
<Casey> And people willing to give you money to attend parties?
<Sea Witch> Or you'll snuff all the guests if they don't
<Casey> People willing to give you money if you'll say you use such and such
a product, which is why you're so glamourous.
<Sea Witch> So how come you never see the likes of Sharon Stone endorsing
washing powder?
<Casey> All her clothes go to the dry cleaners?
<crip> cause Sharon Stone isn't famous anymore
<Casey> She opened her mouth and spoke. The secret she's an idiot is now
public knowledge.
<kissfan> LOL
<Sea Witch> Really? What did she say? I wanna run for Congress?
<Casey> Talk about breast cancer, Witchie.
<Sea Witch> I take it she got her facts twisted
<Casey> What facts?!
<Sea Witch> Then she said something really dim and unhelpful?
<Casey> Just tell a lot of tear-jerk stories about all your friends and get
even those mixed up.
<Sea Witch> Oh, she acted like a silly cow! Now Witchie unnastands
<Sea Witch> There are a lot of 'em about
<Casey> For an example of tonight's discussion in action, all I could come
up with is a very brief excerpt from my novel in progress.
<Sea Witch> Ah, a treat!
<Casey> I'm using it only because I can explain what the author intended
(although I hope that's not necessary).
<Casey> "Denassa, bring me a light!" Aya bellowed, plunging the tent into
heavy silence.
<Casey> "'Patience is virtuous,'" Yutrenta said, returning through the
curtain.
<Casey> "Not on the little sleep I've had," Aya retorted.
<Casey> "Here," Yutrenta spoke aside.
<Casey> "Thank you," Denassa whispered and left the tent.
<Casey> "Shon regis," Yutrenta went formal, "if I may advise, that is true
for everyone here." She approached and went to one knee in front of
Manerra, located him by touch, and pressed his belt against his chest. He
took it from her. "Shecaren, I should not have moved your belongings while
you slept, but we have kept all weapons stored beyond Kayarra's reach.
Not," she emphasized, "because he has shown himself to be dangerous, but
because we have not seen him alarmed and have no wish to learn the nature of
his reactions should something frightened him. Please forgive me."
<Casey> "Stop it, Yutrenta," Aya snapped, although his order lacked the
anger of his earlier commands.
<Casey> "Shon regis?"
<Casey> "Speak to me, not around me."
<Casey> "Shon regis."
<crip> is this a new part?
<Casey> The current chapter--a part you haven't gotten yet, Crip.
<crip> HMPH
<Casey> did my paste come through?
<kissfan> yep
<Sea Witch> Yes
<Casey> When Yutrenta is speaking to Manerra (the shecaren), she is in fact
directing her comments to Aya.
<Casey> He's yelling and scaring everyone, Kayarra included.
<Casey> At the end, when she repeats "Shon regis," she's neither admitting
her guilt nor denying it.
<Casey> That's all I have for tonight's discussion.
<Sea Witch> Awwwww
<crip> no more exercises?
<kissfan> LOL ok
<Casey> If someone can volunteer an exercise, we can do another.
<Casey> Anyone have something to add, detract, or comment on?
<Sea Witch> I s'pose Witchie oughta go bye bye cos it's 4am over here.
<Sea Witch> Good topic. I enjoyed it
<Casey> As always, good to see you again, Witchie.
<kissfan> ya witchie It is late . . . or early there isn't it
<Sea Witch> You could put it that way. Grin
<kissfan> well night wirchie sweet dreams
<Sea Witch> Only if I keep the dog the far side of the bedroom door!
<Casey> What are you feeding that animal?
<Casey> Nothing with cheese, I hope.
<Sea Witch> politicians. That's why he stinks so much!
<kissfan> LOL!
<Casey> No wonder!
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