CHAT ARCHIVE - 7-15-00, Rules

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Jul 16 02:45:51 2000

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<Casey> Hello, Witchie! Meet out newest member to join NW's.
<Casey> Rudedog has been with Z7 for a long time, but not on ICQ.
<Sea Witch> I got two rude dogs. They sleep on their backs and proudly show
the world their poochly attributes.
<Rudedog> ^_^
<Sea Witch> Hey Hiya Chipmonk. Witchie's glad to see cute lil rodent chum
again
<LilRed> Welcome to new writers. Watch out for Witchie.
<Casey> I will ask the new folks to do the honors by introducing themselves.
Whatever they'd like to share, along with what sort of stuff they write.
<Sea Witch> Witchie's all fingers and eyes GRIN
<Rudedog> *smile* Well, where to begin. I've been writing sci-fi and
fantasy shorts for about 3 years now and am little better then a rank
amateur.
<Sea Witch> Not for much longer Rudedog! Casey'll see to that
<Casey> Witchie may overestimate my skills a bit.
<kissfan> LOL yep she will rudedog
<Sea Witch> Don't underestimate your skills Casey. I've learned from you.
<Rudedog> I've done a pair of short scifis (originally meant to be a
trilogy) entitled "hoppers"
<Rudedog> not my best and one of my earlier ones
<Rudedog> and a fairly long running Fanfic in the Pokemon universe
<Rudedog> please don't laugh
<Rudedog> I'm rather proud of it.
<Jean> I am currently writing a love story of sorts and I've written several
short stories
<Sea Witch> Pokemon? Aarrgghh
<Rudedog> hehe
<Jean> oh my son would LOVE that
<Sea Witch> I have a son that eats, sleeps and breaths the critters
<Jean> yes, same here, but we're not here to talk about that
<kissfan> my nephew would like that one rudedog
<Casey> Not laughing at all. One of the students I'm proudest of has chosen
a comic writing career. His strong point is dialogue, so he's very good at
it.
<Rudedog> ... maybe. It is meant for late teen readers
<Rudedog> go.to/dogzone
<Rudedog> my website if anyone is interested
<Jean> writing it down for future ref
<Jean> tks
<LilRed> I don't like to watch anime. To much high pitched screaming, so I
don't know, maybe Pokemon in story form might be better.
<Jean> do you all submit your writing in here?
<Sea Witch> Sure can Jean
<Casey> We have two active critique groups, is that what you mean, Jean?
<Jean> what is this group?
<crip> uh oh strange people in nw
<crip> besides casey
<Casey> Our site is the Edge. New Writers is only part of that site/group.
<Jean> so what do you all talk about and do here?
<LilRed> It's going to be a busy night in the wastebin!
<Sea Witch> Witchie's already in there Chip. It'll save time later. heh
heh
<Casey> All the old hands, give a brief summary of what you do/who you are
for the new folks, please. Then I'll start the class.
<LilRed> Casey will give the lesson and if you're naughty and disruptive you
have to sit in the wastebin.
<Casey> We put people and critters who misbehave in the trash can.
<Casey> Some, too large to fit, must stand in the corner.
<Jean> how funny
<Jean> i promise to behave ...until you all know me better
<LilRed> I'm the disciplinarian
<Sea Witch> Miss Whiplash
<Casey> Kathy, go first. Tell the new folks about yourself.
<kissfan> ok well I have 2 fantasy stories that I have set aside for the
moment and right now I am working on a romance story
<Casey> Thanks!
<Sea Witch> Let yourself go Jean. We're all nut cases here
<crip> speak for yourself
<Sea Witch> Oh sorry crip. I forgot, you're a head case
<Casey> I am the moderator of this workshop, Director of the Edge, and all
around ogre-person. My preferred genre is science fiction, but I have
written a little mainstream, nonfiction, won awards in poetry and fiction,
and I write songs.
<Rudedog> #^_^#
<crip> acceptance into nw means an all around harassment of casey to share
and build on her work
<Casey> Hush, Crip!
<crip> > : )
<Casey> I'm writing as fast as I can. I swear!
<Sea Witch> So would I. which word can I use tonite?
<Jean> at first I read ogre as orgy, how funny
<Casey> Not what I meant, SW! Now share your bio.
<Rudedog> archaic spelling or typo :Tonite?
<crip> *biting down on lip*
<Sea Witch> Orgy just about sums it up Jean. An orgy of laughter
<Jean> well then i guess i'm in the right place
<kissfan> LOL well look at me still working on Chapter 7 but at least i
have everything switched over to that new office program so now it should be
easier for me to get going on it again
<Jean> how do any of you get anything accomplished in here, lol
<crip> accomplished? what does that mean?
<crip> OH NO!!! NOT BECKY!! AHHHHHHHHH
<LilRed> Becky!! She lives!!
<Rudedog> as in finished? ... Who finishes anything?
<Sea Witch> I write SF, fantasy and horror shorts. I'm working on a fantasy
novel but it's had to take a backseat to a non-fic book I've been
commissioned to write
<Sea Witch> Hey Hot Stuff! Tarq has missed you!
<LilRed> Oh am I in trouble now!
<BeckyB> Thanks, just been busy making a living. But I've missed you.
<Casey> With all the intros and chat, I'm going to skip the grammar lesson
tonight and go directly into topic, if no one has an objection.
<Sea Witch> Witchie also runs a writers showcase. You can find it at
www.blackpool.net/users/weirdvisions
<crip> boo hoo hoo. no grammar lesson make Crip so sad!!
<BeckyB> I didn't know that. I'll have to check it out.
<Rudedog> shakes his head slowly, chuckling under his breath
<Sea Witch> Awwww! But the grammar lesson always gives Witchie the chance
to really misbehave.
<BeckyB> Sounds like a good idea. I'm more interested in the main topic.
<Jean> oh, but I'm so good at grammar
<Casey> Tonight's main topic concerns the setting of limits or the creation
of rules, used to guide the author through his or her story.
<Rudedog> please explain
<BeckyB> By the way, for those who haven't met me, I'm Becky, 28, 3 kids, I
usually write fantasy, but lately have been working on historical fiction.
<Casey> It is exactly what it sounds like: rules to write by.
<Sea Witch> What sort Becky?
<LilRed> I'm a Chipmonk and I'm silly.
<Rudedog> seriously...
<Casey> Surprisingly, the rules the author sets doesn't limit his choices
but often expands them.
<Sea Witch> Don't be taken in by Chips cute exterior folks. Underneath
beats a heart of pure mischief
<Casey> Okay, to explain limits/rules, let's consider some of the rules of
society. Can you guys name some of the ones we live by?
<crip> um
<BeckyB> It's a little contraversial so I've decided to not talk about it
much until I have some good sections to crit.
<Sea Witch> 'Kay. Look forward to seeing them
<BeckyB> Thanks.
<Casey> What do society's rules do for us?
<Rudedog> limit our behavior, supposedly for the benefit of all society
<Jean> casey, it looks like you have quite a few mis-behavers in here
<Casey> (I always do, Jean. By now, you know the main culprits)
<LilRed> Rules of society: No disappearing and reappearing in violation of
the rules of physics we have agreed upon.
<Sea Witch> Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's petrol lawnmower?
<BeckyB> I'm not quite sure what you are asking for Casey. Some people
think something is a rule and others disagree.
<Rudedog> kind of like setting your physics for a scifi
<Sea Witch> When you are writing about a fantasy world the rules are what
you make them Casey. but the usual ones apply I suppose
<Jean> i can follow that yes
<Rudedog> Everything's normal until the author says otherwise
<Casey> Exactly, SW. And that applies to any writing, not solely fantasy.
<LilRed> No eating chipmonks during class - TARQUIN!!
<BeckyB> How about the rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto
you.?"
<Sea Witch> Like the rule that people spout gallons of blood when you chop
their heads off Wikkid cackle
<Rudedog> Unless they are already dead...
<Casey> Doesn't that help eliminate or control chaos, Becky?
<Casey> A rule of courtesy.
<BeckyB> I can agree with that.
<Sea Witch> If they're dead then they'll be lying in a lake of blood. It's
a rule of high fantasy <g>
<Jean> I'm afraid of you sea witch
<LilRed> No disobeying your own rules in a story.
<Casey> Smart, Jean.
<crip> ugh
<Sea Witch> very big grin
<LilRed> I warned you about Witchie.
<BeckyB> We are all afraid of the witchy, very afraid.
<Casey> Excellent, Chip.
<Rudedog> I hate it when an author violates characters to advance the plot
<Sea Witch> Right Chip. You've gotta stick to rules else the story will
make no sense to anyone else reading it
<LilRed> Or doesn't have any rules and has people doing all sorts of strange
things willy nilly just to get them out of a jam.
<Casey> Rules generally allow citizens to be productive by coordinating
activities.
<Casey> Provides a safe, known, and predictable environment, usually.
<Jean> I'm sitting here trying to think of what rules I've made in my story
<Rudedog> allows for a little productive foreshadowing
<Casey> Good one, Rudedog
<crip> question: what about writers like Kurt Vonnegut whose rule is to have
no rules?
<Casey> That is his rule.
<Rudedog> Plus, if you have set up a rule, it can be very dramatic when it
is broken
<Casey> But even chaos follows rules, doesn't it?
<Sea Witch> Common sense helps. And a little research.
<Sea Witch> Nice one Casey
<Rudedog> yup, I guess it does
<Rudedog> you could argue that pure randomness IS a rule
<Casey> Contrast is possible with rules. The contrast between the control
and the lack of control.
<Sea Witch> Like the lack of control we usually have here?
<kissfan> HEHEE
<Rudedog> rolls eyes
<LilRed> I hope not on the floor.
<Casey> Everything that can and is found in nature and human society can be
used in fiction.
<Sea Witch> Hey neat trick 'Dog.
<Jean> looks like we haven't really set any rules here, he he
<Sea Witch> Doesn't it hurt when you pull'em out though?
<Rudedog> shoot a basket with his eyes then proudly replaces them
<BeckyB> A pure randomness rule would have to be broken. Most writers have
too much order to pull it off. If you are disciplined enough to write an
entire story, You probably don't have that much chaos in you.
<kissfan> us? follow rules in here? NEVER LOL
<Sea Witch> Disciplined? Moi?
<LilRed> I've heard of rolling snake eyes, but not dog eyes.
<Rudedog> What good would a story composed of Chaos be?
<Jean> are you talking about characters doing things that are not
"characteristic of themselves"?
<Rudedog> It would be, by definition, plotless.
<Casey> So how does an author use rules in writing? (We'll take them one at
a time.) For instance, with characters' behaviors. What limits might an
author wish to place on a character?
<crip> sort of like Mr. Rogers pulling an uzi on big bird
<BeckyB> Or every plot.
<Sea Witch> Then I guess there's an awful lot of chaotic books on them thar
shelves
<Rudedog> lol
<Sea Witch> I want to pull an uzi on Big Bird!
<Rudedog> If you have set up a character to be a coward, such as the emporer
in gladiator, don't suddenly have him challenge a respected gladiator in the
arena
<Jean> i understand
<LilRed> It would be a violation of witchies character to not want to pull
an uzi on someone.
<Jean> just wanted to make sure I was
<Rudedog> -_-
<Sea Witch> History lesson! Commodus actually did fight in the gladiatorial
ring!
<Rudedog> but the movie's guy wouldn't have
<Casey> He fought dirty, though. Which was in keeping with his character.
<LilRed> Yup.
<BeckyB> I can see a lot of possible limits. In a lot of realms.
Physical - if the character is blind they must always be blind. Mental - a
child should act like a child.
<crip> GLADIATOR!!! WHO DARES MENTION THAT CRAPPY MOVIE!! ARRRGGGHH
<Sea Witch> Yeah. He once killed a giraffe by spearing it from his
emperor's box. what a cad!
<crip> oh sorry
<Casey> Calm down, Crip. It was only an example.
<crip> i know. just kidding.
<Rudedog> sigh
<LilRed> (crip is in the movie business)
<Casey> (and his own little world)
<BeckyB> Don't spoil it, I haven't seen it yet.
<Sea Witch> Witchie liked Gladiator. Those neat little leather kilts.
Those interestingly rippling muscles. Sigh.....
<Sea Witch> heh heh
<Casey> Not to mention the volume of blood?
<Sea Witch> that too
<LilRed> Part of what makes stories good is how to work around the rules.
<Jean> ok, so what's next
<Casey> Or how the story works with the rules.
<BeckyB> it has to be better than "Battlefield Earth" just saw it, and was
very disappointed.
<Rudedog> Spend your time better and reread the whole "Wheel of Time" set of
books by Robert Jordan
<Casey> Behavior limits: Your character can not steal. Uses profanity
frequently.
<Sea Witch> I'm still trying to work out though exactly how he rode his
horse from Germany to Spain in less than 24 hrs. You couldn't do that in a
car
<Rudedog> it was a turbo-charged, stallion from hell!
<Rudedog> Nightmare as we called them in those D&D groups
<Casey> Rudedog's got the answer!
<Sea Witch> That makes a lot of sense. Thanks 'Dog
<kissfan> HOLY COW That bugger had wings and had jet fuel for lunch!
<LilRed> Notice how few people in fantasies even bother to feed their
horses?
<Rudedog> or take a shit
<Rudedog> excuse my french
<Sea Witch> You play D & D? I thought that had been superceded by crappy
computer games
<LilRed> Exactly!
<kissfan> or hardly ever eat unless it is at a huge party
<Rudedog> ^_^ for years
<BeckyB> I didn't know that was french!
<Sea Witch> You're my kind of 'Dog
<Jean> and the girls in romance novels never get "the curse"
<Rudedog> shows you how much french I know
<Rudedog> ???
<Jean> well, I did read one that did
<LilRed> And withstand injuries that would crush every bone in your body and
lay you up for years.
<Casey> If you decide that a character can't lie, you can use all the "not
lying" techniques we discussed in Lies! Damned Lies! (Pardon my English)
<kissfan> HMMMMMMMMM that is so convenient for those sex scenes right Jean
<Jean> isn't it though
<Sea Witch> Some writers are far too coy. Let 'em bleed is what I say.
Girls is girls after all
<crip> ewwwww
<Rudedog> Yup, character predictability is of utmost importance
<Rudedog> if the character changes in an unpredictable fashion every chapter
or so the reader can't ever learn to identify with him/her
<Sea Witch> Everyone lies. Even protags
<Casey> What Rules of Style or Syntax are available for writers?
<Rudedog> or hate him/her if a villian
<LilRed> But then do they feel guilty?
<BeckyB> Is that one of witchy's rules?
<Sea Witch> I just shocked Crip! Can I have a "get out of bucket free" card
please?
<LilRed> For shocking crip? Definitely!
<Rudedog> woh!
<Sea Witch> My protag lies and doesn't feel guilty. He doesn't even blush
when caught out. Bad lad
<Casey> Shocking Crip is too easy to do, Witchie. No free pass.
<Rudedog> I don't think I'll go there
<Sea Witch> Thanks Chip. (pockets card)
<LilRed> She's the boss. Give it back.
<Rudedog> but even that is character. Now if you suddenly had him acting
proper...
<Sea Witch> Awwwww. Casey supposed to be Witchie's friend! Boo hoo
<Casey> I can (and have) shocked crip in 3 words. Anyone want to try for 2?
<crip> NO DON'T
<BeckyB> Bra Size.
<Sea Witch> ROFL
<LilRed> (If she gave it back willingly it would violate her character)
<Jean> omg
<Casey> LOL! Good one, Becky.
<Sea Witch> ROFLAWK
<crip> that's not so bad. Casey is much worse.
<Casey> Why thank you, Crip!
<BeckyB> If he remembers that far back. The first night he dropped in he
was the only male and we took advantage of him.
<Sea Witch> How about "Codling Grinders". That one always makes Mr SW
flinch
<Casey> Anyone have ideas about style or syntax rules as they relate to your
story?
<Rudedog> I'll co-opt beckyB's one and add this: Hood ornament
<crip> syntax?
<BeckyB> Other than making sure your character who has an accent always has
an accent?
<LilRed> Sin tax?
<Sea Witch> It's what prostitutes have to pay when they get caught, Crip
<Casey> The way in which words are combined or put in order.
<Casey> That's good, Becky. I hadn't thought of that one.
<crip> ok thank you for clarifying. hush SW
<Rudedog> If a character always exhibits a certain body motion before an
action or speech then he must ALWAYS do so
<Sea Witch> Not always 'Dog. There are times when it would not be fitting
<LilRed> Like if you're doing fake medieval don't switch to say, Daschell
Hammet
<Casey> Decisions to use contractions or not to use contractions (either
throughout or only in a specific character's POV)
<Rudedog> consistancy
<BeckyB> Unless you have led up to them intentionally trying to change.
<Sea Witch> Do you mean Dashiell Hammett?
<Rudedog> I forget about contractions...
<LilRed> Yeah, that guy.
<Sea Witch> Never heard of him
<Rudedog> I like Scottish burrs ^_^
<Sea Witch> I don't they're hell to pick out of a Springer's fur
<Casey> Anyone read the discussion on The Open Edge about aesthetics in
prose and poetry?
<BeckyB> nope
<LilRed> She had great gams, but I never did care much for lyin' broads.
<Rudedog> I read a sf novel where one of the characters had an almost
untranslatable accent and it was fun to read
<Rudedog> go fig
<Sea Witch> Some of it. I tried to post to that one and it got lost
<Casey> Alliteration was mentioned. That falls under our syntax category of
rules.
<Sea Witch> Haven't had time to go back to it
<Rudedog> alliteration in prose?
<Casey> Yes. Poe uses it in his prose.
<Rudedog> scratchs his head...
<crip> example?
<LilRed> The tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, bells.
<Casey> As Black Templar pointed out, when bizarre things begin to happen,
he breaks from alliteration and makes his words harsher, more disjointed.
<Sea Witch> I don't like alliteration much. It always sounds juvenile
<Casey> Sort of like the rising background music in scary movies when the
murderer's raising his knife.
<BeckyB> You know, I think one thing a good writer should try to do is make
sure of what rule apply to each character. For instance if you were to go
back and read the chats we have had, certain lines could only have been said
by certain people. Each person is very different and each character should
be too.
<Rudedog> I suppose I would prefer a wider word selection then persue
alliteration
<Sea Witch> I think Casey has been overly influenced by Witchie's violent
tendencies
<Rudedog> huh?
<Sea Witch> Spot on Becky.
<Casey> Definitely, SW. You're a very bad influence.
<Sea Witch> Oh, good!
<kissfan> Ya I have trouble making each character sound different. they all
sound the same
<Jean> I'm with you Becky
<Rudedog> nods
<BeckyB> See, who else would say spot on?
<Casey> Creating different rules for each character helps, Kathy. That's
jumping a bit ahead.
<LilRed> Of course weird little mannerisms in speech can be taken too far.
<BeckyB> And we all should know who "GRIN"s.
<Rudedog> and become unbelievable?
<Casey> And you wouldn't want weird mannerisms for every single character.
That's is too contrived!
<Rudedog> only important or variety ones?
<Jean> I can always carry a conversation or body language with my
characters,
<kissfan> LOL ya it is hell to have a rock star sound like the police
detective and heve them both sound laike the next one . . .
<Sea Witch> Yeah, there's lots of Zenisms, Chipisms, Caseyisms and
Witchieisms etc
<LilRed> Unless you're writing Twin Peaks.
<Jean> my problem is a gripping storyline
<Rudedog> plot as insubstantial as air
<Rudedog> as powerful too
<BeckyB> My problem is getting the 1st draft down on peper.
<Casey> Okay, then, what rules might apply to a character's personal
identity?
<kissfan> LOL mine too Becky.
<Sea Witch> My problem is finding the time to get my ass on the chair.
<Jean> so far I have 9 chapters about these two people getting to know each
other
<Rudedog> personal moral positions
<Rudedog> physical differences
<BeckyB> So rude dog has now described his plots as a form of powerful gas?
<LilRed> Their psychological makeup.
<Sea Witch> That too 'Dog.
<Rudedog> like the haze over the table on an all-taco-bell night
<Casey> LOL!
<Casey> What they fear?
<Sea Witch> How big their sword is
<Jean> how they dress
<Jean> how they speak
<kissfan> habits
<Rudedog> D&D night
<Rudedog> SW, you are too much
<Sea Witch> You ain't seen nothing yet heh heh
<kissfan> what they do for a living
<LilRed> Nobody pull Rudedog's finger-uh paw.
<Rudedog> I didn't say I was doing it. LOL
<BeckyB> If a character had something happen to them as a child, say, dog
bite. They might have a fear of anything that reminds them of that.
<Rudedog> psychological afflictions
<Rudedog> goals and such
<Casey> Or, specifically, fear all dogs.
<Sea Witch> D & D is best played somewhere dark and creepy. In a cellar or
attic.
<LilRed> Their Kryptonite.
<Sea Witch> Witchie doesn't believe in Kryptonite.
<Rudedog> depends on your DMing style
<Casey> THAT'S THE NAME I COULDN'T REMEMBER THE OTHER NIGHT!!!
<BeckyB> Unless you wanted to go off in a different direction and they have
trouble with most animals or even fur.
<Jean> but then you're in a whole new story
<LilRed> Animals? Fur? What?
<Rudedog> if you are playing a horror campaign, yes, but not if you like
high fantasy
<Sea Witch> I'm an old fashioned girl 'Dog. Bin playing it since the early
80's. But not much over the last few years. Respectable married woman and
all that
<crip> what name?
<Rudedog> I'm a 21 year old writer of pokemon and player of much RPGs
<Rudedog> go fig
<Jean> kriptonite?
<Rudedog> Superman's bane
<Casey> In private thoughts, I have a character that refers to himself only
as "I" (therefore I use "he" when relating his stream of consciousness).
<Jean> how else would you refer to yourself?
<LilRed> Kryptonite is what makes superman weak. So whatever is your
characters weakness , they can't just overcome it whenever they need to.
<Sea Witch> The only comic book character I ever really liked was Judge
Dredd
<Rudedog> or at least they need an extraordinary reason to be able to do so
<Casey> He doesn't identify himself with the name he is called, therefore he
doesn't use "Kayarra."
<crip> great character. movie did no justice.
<Jean> I am the law
<BeckyB> And I'd pegged you for a Groo fan.
<crip> GROO! I LOVE GROO!
<Jean> sorry, that judge dredd comment made me remember that movie with
stalone
<Sea Witch> I'm with you on that one Crip. What a waste!
<BeckyB> Groo turns me on, what can I say.
<Rudedog> 0_0
<Sea Witch> Hey. I just agreed with Crip. Oh no, Witchie just agreed with
Crip!!!
<crip> i don't know about that. EWWWW
<crip> bwahahahahahahaha
<Sea Witch> Who's Groo?
<Jean> i don't understand, casey
<Jean> why would you refer to yourself as your name
<Casey> Jean: In contrast, other characters are named in their thoughts.
<Casey> For clarity's sake, only.
<BeckyB> A comic book character. Imagine the most stupid rock in existance
then step on its nose. That's Groo.
<crip> yeah when characters refer to themselves as the aroused one who
wouldn't?
<Rudedog> do you italicise your character's thoughts?
<Sea Witch> You have rocks with noses?
<Casey> Hahahaha!
<Casey> Bad, Crip!
<Casey> No, I don't. ('Dog)
<crip> bad? you're the one who wrote it!!!
<Sea Witch> To identify between spoken word and thought
<Jean> ok, well i guess that's a characteristic i haven't seen before
<Rudedog> I have just been leaving off the quotation marks for thoughts
<Sea Witch> Some writers do that also 'Dog
<Casey> It's one of the rules I set for effect, Jean. There's a story
reason for it.
<Jean> I always put thoughts in italics
<Sea Witch> Witchie too.
<Casey> Rudedog: that's what I do.
<LilRed> I have a novel in which many characters have no names, It was hard
thinking up things to call them to differentiate who was speaking without
being repetitive.
<Sea Witch> Especially since a few of my characters are telepathic
<Jean> so what did you do, red?
<BeckyB> No names?
<LilRed> He, the boy, the older one, the old woman and so on.
<Rudedog> What do you do to differentiate telepathic communication SW?
<Sea Witch> Such as. "Big lumpy waste of space with red blotch on end of
nose"?
<Casey> I don't name animals in my current work.
<Jean> doesn't your story seem to be in first person then, Casey?
<Casey> Not at all, Jean.
<Casey> Telepathic communication, I italicize.
<Sea Witch> Same way I differentiate between speech 'Dog
<Jean> sorry, still a little stuck on the "I" thing
<Rudedog> I've been using an * as a telepathic quotation mark
<Sea Witch> That probably works best in comic books
<Casey> it's written in third person. That's why I "translate" Kayarra's
thoughts from "I" to "he"
<Jean> please give me an example
<Rudedog> *I don't understand,* sent RD desperately.
<LilRed> I don't think it matters what you use as long as you make it clear
what you're doing the first time and are consistent.
<Jean> i see
<Jean> t/y
<Rudedog> t/y??
<Casey> Exactly, Chip. Consistency, and clarifying your rules upfront, are
the key.
<Jean> thank you (t/y)
<Rudedog> k
<Sea Witch> You still need punctuation in there.
<Rudedog> in the "k"?
<Jean> I have found that taglines make a huge difference
<Sea Witch> K?
<Rudedog> <i>Italics</i>
<Rudedog> oh, hehe
<Rudedog> not html enabled
<Jean> they can explain EVERYTHING you are trying to say
<Casey> Dialogue tags are very useful for sneaking in information.
<Sea Witch> Now you're blinding me with cyberscience
<Rudedog> italics
<Sea Witch> Or Yankspeak
<Rudedog> shadowrun. Fasa eat you heart out
<Casey> Technology rules (moving right along).
<LilRed> Hmmm, what if sometime in the future, people spoke in html?
<Rudedog> 0_0 weird...
<Jean> god help us!
<Sea Witch> Oh, God. Witchie has just quit the human race
<Casey> I'd have to remain a writer.
<kissfan> Oh god I would hide forever
<Rudedog> verbal punctuation and all that...
<Sea Witch> I would have to use Mr. SW as an interpreter
<Casey> Scary thought!
<Jean> ok, now what?
<Sea Witch> Isn't it though
<Rudedog> no, interesting thought...
<LilRed> B Yeah unB it would.
<Casey> Technology.
<Casey> Rules for.
<Casey> Ideas?
<Rudedog> Like stardrives and teleportation
<Casey> Yep!
<Casey> Reverse gravity.
<Rudedog> cryostasis and futuristic weapons
<Jean> like websites, and mouse's
<Rudedog> mice
<Jean> i like mouses
<Jean> lol
<Sea Witch> I hope we ain't gonna be mentioning no S or T words here.
<BeckyB> And how many runabouts can a stranded starship really have?
<Rudedog> heeh, Star Trek! Boo!
<Casey> The speed of light *is* an unbreakable ceiling. How do your
characters travel?
<Sea Witch> How may feeble plot lines, dontcha mean?
<Rudedog> how many red shirted extras were killed during that "Five year
mission"?
<LilRed> Or people who fly around in starships that never need fuel and
fight with swords.
<Sea Witch> The speed of light isn't un unbreakable ceiling, only an
unproveable one
<BeckyB> How many times can you blow up everyone on board and not have it
affect next week.
<Casey> (I was suggesting that as a "rule" example, SW)
<LilRed> Where do they get parts?
<Rudedog> I found an interesting article about scientists who believe they
may be onto a method of FTL light beams
<crip> replicators
<Jean> ok, i have one
<Casey> Synthetic foods. Like Taco Bell.
<BeckyB> Replicators. I Need one of those. I'm just imagining what I'd
want.
<Jean> my "hero" is an architect
<Rudedog> lightsabers
<Jean> he uses CAD to draw things
<Sea Witch> We must have read similar articles 'Dog. I'm an amateur
astronomer amongst other things
<Jean> how's that for technology?
<LilRed> Go on. Jean.
<Casey> That's a reality right now, Jean.
<BeckyB> Replicate, chocolate..... silks ...... Mel Gibson.
<Jean> well, i guess that's good cause it's in present time
<Jean> umm, love all of them
<Jean> lol
<Rudedog> or orbital bombardment with snagged asteroids
<Sea Witch> Mr. SW is a CAD engineer. If he was an achitect I'd divorce
him. Have you ever seen what those buggers have done to historical towns
and cities?
<Casey> Yeah! I wanna see *that* rope!
<Rudedog> LOL, becky, I don't think it did that...
<Rudedog> Gravity manipulation
<LilRed> So, your character has to talk CAd and think spatial?
<BeckyB> Assomov has rules that he doesn't break, the only problem is he
repeats them Over, and over, and over ....
<Sea Witch> I didn't know asteroids wore pantyhose 'Dog.
<Rudedog> Aaaaaah! here comes the armagedden pantyhose!
<Sea Witch> LOL
<Rudedog> duck and cover!
<Casey> What about a character's strengths and weaknesses?
<Rudedog> such as cutting off his own foot in his first sword fight?
<Jean> scary thought, since I know virtually nothing about architecture
<Rudedog> Cleric!!!
<LilRed> Jean brought to mind a good one--the personality and speech should
fit the occupation.
<Casey> "In a fantasy, if magic has no limitations, the characters are
omnipotent gods; anything can happen, and so there's no story." (Orson
Scott Card, p. 31, How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy)
<Rudedog> I have that book
<Rudedog> that is why one must have rules for magic
<crip> oooh great quote
<Sea Witch> Magic must exact a price.
<Jean> i think when a reader is reading about magic, they know not to expect
many rules
<BeckyB> That can be a real problem with historical fiction. You usually
can read about the strengths, but you have to try to figure out what they
were really like.
<Casey> Rules provide realism, even in fantasy. We live with rules every
day of our lives. Why should our characters not?
<Rudedog> and coincedently why a long running campaign involving a Mage PC
is so hard
<BeckyB> Why must magic exact a price.
<Rudedog> because otherwise the characters would use it for every problem
<Casey> When you drink water, doesn't the level of water in your glass
decrease?
<kissfan> one that practices magic has limitations such as the characters
knowledgs there
<Jean> i think i would be shouting "use your magic" to get my character out
of a bad situation
<Rudedog> and there would be no struggle
<LilRed> What is the rule for what you send out come back triple or
something?
<BeckyB> That's like saying knowledge must exact a price, it does, but the
"magic must exact a price" thing is getting so over done.
<Rudedog> a price or a power cap
<Rudedog> your choice
<LilRed> And there are some things man was not meant to know!
<BeckyB> There would still be a stuggle. You just run into people who do
magic better than you.
<Rudedog> BS, I don't believe that
<Jean> this is true, becky
<Rudedog> but twenty Magical vilians becomes redundent
<Casey> Say, you've got a character who's telepathic. Okay. Amazing
ability. But what if he can't control that telepathy? Thoughts and
feelings come to him randomly. Doesn't that generate greater tension than
if he could control it?
<Rudedog> I mean, how many variations can there be
<LilRed> For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction?
<Jean> good point casey
<Rudedog> I like characters who don't know their own power
<Rudedog> that way the reader can discover it with them
<BeckyB> True, I can agree there are limits, but I guess I'm tired of the
same variations of limits.
<Jean> that could be tension in itself
<kissfan> LOL ya big time!
<Rudedog> I don't believe in forbidden knowledge
<Jean> my character has changed his limits so to speak
<Rudedog> how so?
<Jean> well, his characteristics have changed
<LilRed> Rule Chipmonks who eat too much choklit Riesen while chatting get
tummy aches! Oooo
<Rudedog> again, how so?
<BeckyB> Neither do I. Some knowledge is unfindable, that doesn't mean
unknowable.
<Rudedog> or forbidden
<BeckyB> Or Forbidden
<Sea Witch> My characters' abilities are limited by distance. They are also
limited by large obstacles such as mountains
<Jean> he used to race cars (mustangs) in high school and college and does
not anymore, but still drives the same model car as back then so he still
kind of holds the image
<Jean> make sense? and his name is "Race"
<Rudedog> Um, I'm not sure that is a limit.
<LilRed> Yeah, it does.
<Casey> If a character is not changed, even subtly, by what happens in your
story, where's the story?
<Jean> didn't mean limit, i guess
<Rudedog> If he had lost his job and couldn't afford to race anymore,
wouldn't that be more examplic?
<BeckyB> It is interesting, in Sci-Fi distance may not be limiting, but in
most other areas it definitely is.
<Rudedog> is "examplic" a word?
<LilRed> Exemplary?
<Rudedog> yeah, thanks!
<Jean> maybe a person has limits they've never used before
<Rudedog> hehe, Kind of like how I got my nickname. ^_^
<LilRed> So Race is defined by his past?
<BeckyB> Some characters better not change. I'm not going to throw my
readers into chaos with all characters grow and learn from the experience.
<Rudedog> the protagonist should though
<Casey> Not all characters must change, Becky! Only main character(s).
<Jean> the heroine defines him by his past
<LilRed> Which limits him?
<Jean> and that ties in with the story
<Jean> because she's terrified of driving ever since her husband died in a
car crash
<Rudedog> one must adapt and improve
<BeckyB> True, I'd be bored by a story that had no change to the main
characters.
<Rudedog> else why exist?
<kissfan> A story doesn't grow if the characters don't change in some way
<Rudedog> unless it was a serial...
<Sea Witch> My protag just wants to be any ordinary bloke. He has to come
to terms with the fact he is different from most people
<BeckyB> Rude dog and the meaning of life.
<Jean> i think some things must change, but the overall character must
remain the same
<Rudedog> Monty Python was unavailable...
<BeckyB> :->
<DaveC> Jean, I would agree with you, and I'm just getting up to speed on
the topic.
<Jean> thank you Dave, nice to meet you
<Jean> if characters don't do some things out of character then the story
gets boring
<Sea Witch> Not necessarily Jean. Main characters might be changed quite
profoundly by certain experiences and traumatic events
<Casey> Exactly. The panther does not change his color, but he can and will
change his behavior given the right stimulus.
<Rudedog> Not necessarily. However, a change should have serious
repercussions
<LilRed> Or be extremely challenged not to change.
<LilRed> Ye olde resisting evil plot.
<Rudedog> Not OOC, just expanding their character to include other
situations and reactions
<Sea Witch> Even "good" characters should have a dark side. It makes them
more interesting.
<Jean> i believe it keeps the reader stimulated
<Rudedog> a flaw, or as I like to say, "character" makes them human
<BeckyB> I've got a question but it's off the topic. When we're done I need
to get some advice.
<BeckyB> Of course you are there. "Where ever you go, there you are."
<Casey> Okay, Becky.
<Rudedog> Home is where you are lying
<Rudedog> or is that laying?
<Jean> I knew someone who used to say that all the time becky
<Sea Witch> Through your teeth!
<DaveC> I'm still writing and will have my first book publish within the
next month. Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<BeckyB> Wow!!!!!!
<Sea Witch> Way to go Dave!!!!!
<Rudedog> congrats
<Jean> WOW, excellent
<kissfan> YAY DAVE congrats!
<Casey> What's the title, Dave?
<LilRed> Yay!!!!!!
<Jean> <<<is jealous
<Casey> And who's publishing it?
<DaveC> Amazon
<BeckyB> Bookstore, online?
<Sea Witch> Brill!
<DaveC> Yes!
<Rudedog> What Genre?
<LilRed> Amazon publishes books?
<LilRed> The one about the pilot?
<BeckyB> Is Amazon the title or publisher?
<DaveC> Scifi for this one. First in a trilogy. Also working on an adventure
novel which takes place in the Bahamas, and where else but on a sailboat.
<Rudedog> cool!
<LilRed> Duh!
<Sea Witch> Well, it might be a washtub.
<Rudedog> doing research? ^_^
<DaveC> No they, Amazon, will market it.
<Casey> Great to see you writing from personal experience!
<BeckyB> How is your boat? I'm still very jeolous.
<Casey> I KNOW you have tales to tell.
<kissfan> Awesome!
<Casey> What's the title of the book, Dave?
<DaveC> It is afloat. Many other things in my life have gone deep six, but
the boat remains constant.
<DaveC> Shield of Lantius
<LilRed> That's good.
<Casey> That's the one I remember!
<Sea Witch> Catchy
<LilRed> Yeah with the pilots.
<Casey> For the life of me, I couldn't remember its name.
<Sea Witch> First Zach, now Dave. I wonder who's going to be next?
<DaveC> You're right Casey, and I think you helped me on a couple of
chapters if I remember correctly. Thank you. In fact, in the dedication I
tried to thank everyone but Clinton.
<LilRed> And those critters whose name I forgot.
<DaveC> Utapotus
<BeckyB> That seems to be life. Deep 6 to this and that, but somehow we
manage.
<BeckyB> What did Zach get published?
<Rudedog> I had an idea about a pilot testing out an experimental drug aimed
at increasing reflexes by overstimulating the brain and overclocking it.
However, it died when I realized that I knew too little about Military
culture.
<LilRed> Those are the ones. As long as they don't eat Chipmonks.
<Sea Witch> That plot has been done to death 'Dog
<DaveC> Rudedog, That part of your book I could help with. 30 years as a
Marine Corps fighter pilot.
<Rudedog> cool, thanks!
<Sea Witch> Or blast Chipmonks. Tarq's still got his big gun trained on the
rodents y'know
<LilRed> Eeeep!
<Casey> To wrap things up somewhat before we get off on too many tangents:
Rules for characters, for technology, for syntax, for every other thing you
wish to limit or define, works best in contrast.
<Rudedog> and at the begining of the story
<Casey> Zach published Man-Like, and is working hard on Of Whole Cloth.
<Sea Witch> Especially if you know what you are writing about.
<DaveC> No, they don't eat anything that I am aware of. In the following two
novels, they become more and more important, and in the end, they are the
salvation of not just Earth but the universe itself.
<BeckyB> Good, I am desperate to see Of Whole Cloth in print.
<LilRed> Cool! Go critters!
<Sea Witch> Me too. I can't wait to see how he reworked it
<DaveC> Sorry, Casey, please continue with your discussion. Sorry !
<Sea Witch> Don't worry Dave. Casey is used to interruptions. Heh heh
<Casey> Don't apologize, Dave! We were deteriorating before you got here.
In fact, immediately after I said, Hi! Welcome!
<Rudedog> rolls his eyes
<Sea Witch> I hope there's no grit lying about 'Dog
<LilRed> Are we done with class then?
<Rudedog> hehe
<Casey> Pretty much, so, Chip.
<Rudedog>

<LilRed> I have news then.
<Jean> how many of you are "new" to writing?
<Rudedog> define "new"
<kissfan> Ya define new LOL
<Jean> well, as for myself I've written quite a bit, but published nothing
<Casey> I've been writing since the age of 12. I'm 46 now.
<DaveC> I like your discussion on MAIN Characters. I know that they say they
are suppose to grow or change, but what if they just handle the situation
with what they have. I don't grow because I survived a hurricane on a
sailboat, I just got sick.
<Sea Witch> LOL Dave.
<Rudedog> you gained valuable experience didn't you?
<Sea Witch> That's how most people would react. That and being shit scared
<Rudedog> that can be growth
<LilRed> You learned you could do it. That's a kind of growth.
<BeckyB> Sorry Dave, you can't be the main character, just the guy barfing
off the side.
<Casey> Did you learn something about riding out hurricanes? That can be
your "growth."
<Rudedog> That's right, I'm that main character. ^_^
<Jean> great movie!
<Sea Witch> I like riding out my hurricanes while watching the Discovery
Channel
<Rudedog> from orbit is better
<DaveC> No I didn't. Really. I did not get sick, but I was scared and
uncomfrotable for over 24 hours. I didn't grow, a did what was necessary to
save my ass and the boat. That is the way I like to write my characters.
They endure.
<Casey> Hurricanes are great fun in a tent in the woods. Just ask my
husband!
<LilRed> Love those partially eaten fish.
<Jean> that way you can just turn the channel if you start to get seasick,
huh sw?
<Rudedog> they're prurdddy
<Sea Witch> Witchie is working on that one but I fear I'm too old to be
enrolled in the space programme
<LilRed> I got a rejection slip!
<Rudedog> I like DaveC's kind of characters.
<Casey> From Time-Warner?!
<BeckyB> I tend to agree for the most part Dave. More people are just
surviving and getting through. Some have moments of insight.
<Rudedog> They are the grizzled veterans of my mythology
Rudedog> they have lost their ignorant bliss
<Sea Witch> You and Harold in a tent in the woods? What on earth were you
doing there?
<Casey> Staying dry, lighting fires, and roasting his only pair of shoes
over the fire.
<Jean> but you do agree that people (and characters) change or "learn" from
life's experiences
<Jean> don't you?
<Sea Witch> Awwww. Poor Chip. D'you wanna add it to my growing rejections?
I got room for a few more if you like
<Casey> I do, Jean.
<DaveC> Really, think about the very worst situation you have ever been in.
Did you grow. I think not. If you did, you wouldn't mind being in the
situation again. Do I want to be in another hurricane. Hell no. Did learn
something I didn't know? NO. I already knew hurricanes sucked, I just found
out for real.
<Jean> and you dave?
<Rudedog> I would do all the crap again. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to be
me.
<Rudedog> I value my hard lessons
<Jean> well, I surely didn't like the pain of having my first child, but I
had another one
<Sea Witch> You were roasting Harold's shoes? Wouldn't a haunch of freshly
caught venison be more nutritious?
<BeckyB> I value running for cover at the first hurricane report.
<Jean> but i went into it with a different frame of mind, based on my
experience of the first time
<DaveC> Jean, exactly. Did you become more of a person with the first or the
second. Writing it, I would say the second.
<Jean> i think my characteristics have changed a lot based on my life's
experiences
<Rudedog> I guess the question is, "Would you choose to experience it if you
could choose in hindsight"?
<Sea Witch> Hurricanes are best experienced in front of a log fire.
<DaveC> Jean, yes and you'll write the main characters the way "you"
approach life . . . no matter what the experts say they should be.
<Jean> but i see what you mean Dave
<Casey> I would, Rudedog. As you said, your life experiences make you.
They make who I am, too.
<Casey> I have insights I would not have had without the experiences I've
lived through.
<Rudedog> and without extensive experience, one cannot write realistically
<Sea Witch> Writing is an individualistic thing Jean. If it wasn't then all
books would be the same.
<DaveC> Sea Witch . . . Amen and amen to that.
<Sea Witch> Witchie takes a bow. Thanks Dave
<Jean> very true
<Casey> Life is the best preparation a writer can have to write well.
<DaveC> Yeah, Sea Witch, I agree 100%
<Jean> but on the other hand, my characters are not like me
<Rudedog> Which is why some of my earlier writing sucks
<BeckyB> I've had growth experiences that changed me that I would never have
chosen and wish never happened.
<Sea Witch> But a lot of writers still need to get a life.
<Sea Witch> You improve with experience and age 'Dog
<Rudedog> are they like someone you know, jean.
<Jean> um i don't know, maybe, i just make them up
<Rudedog> nods
<Sea Witch> More power to your characters Jean
<Jean> but they do hold some of my "morals"
<Rudedog> composite characters are the hallmark of an observant writer
<Jean> i think they hold some characteristics I would like to have
<Jean> how's that?
<DaveC> In my writing there is what some might call a distrust of women.
Okay, I'll admit it. After being burned three times, I have taken to putting
a bit of it in my novels. Right? Wrong? Not either, just the presents of ME
<Rudedog> please, all my friends call me Rude. lol
<Sea Witch> The best way to learn about people is to sit in a restaurant or
a mall and observe and listen. Take notes. I've written a story based on a
comment I overheard in a shop
<Casey> Some of mine hold characteristics I despise.
<Jean> and do things I would like to do, but never have
<Jean> I LOVE TO PEOPLE WATCH
<Rudedog> villains or protags?
<BeckyB> both
<kissfan> Some of my characters in my book I am working on right now are
based on people I know in some ways Other are totally made up and then there
is one that is a mixture of several people all rolled into one LOL
<Casey> Mostly villains, but some of my main characters can be downright
cruel.
<Rudedog> I try to get into people's heads and sniff around the cobwebbs
<LilRed> Hang out in all night truck stops for awhile.
<DaveC> Sea Witch, I do it in airports, but a mall is a great place as well,
and very good advice
<Sea Witch> You can get arrested for that Chip
<shorty103> sorry I'm so quiet, but I feel a little lost here tonight which
is my own fault
<Rudedog> Ahhhhhh! not the truck stop! Dregs of humanity!
<Casey> Different places get a different kind of clientele.
<Sea Witch> I consider sniffing cobwebs as a strange occupation too.
<Jean> yes, and all of them are great for character development
<Rudedog> Try it. You might like it. ^_^
<DaveC> Sniffing cobwebs?????????????? Now, that is weird.
<LilRed> And you need to experience different types. Bus stations are
interesting too.
<Sea Witch> Sniff snuffle sniff. AHHHHHHHHHCCCCHHOOOOOOO!!!!!
<Sea Witch> Nope. I didn’t like that very much at all.
<DaveC> Anywhere people gather, particularly traveling.
<Casey> Modern schools (high schools, especially) are strange locales.
<Jean> just got back from a road trip from California to Texas and back
<Jean> now there's some interesting people
<Jean> lol
<Rudedog> I hate dumb characters! You know, the ones who couldn't see a
three hundred ton monolith five feet ahead
<Rudedog> I try to make all my character reasonably clever
<Sea Witch> There's a lot of dumb buggers about though 'Dog
<Sea Witch> I live in a town full of them.
<DaveC> Where? Texas or California
<kissfan> too many witchie actually
<LilRed> I sat around in a little diner and learned about ostrich ranching
once.
<Sea Witch> Half of them are that stoned they yell "burglar" every time they
see their own reflections
<crip> BURGLAR!
<crip> oh oops nevermind
<LilRed> Where? Where?
<kissfan> LOL
<Rudedog> I know, that doesn't mean I have to write about them. Dumb people
are antags only in my work
<Sea Witch> Whatcha smoking Crip? And why haven't you passed it 'round?
<Casey> They make good contrasts. Highlights the intelligence of the other
characters.
<Casey> How did Crip not get booted out of class yet? I mean, AhhhChoo!
<BeckyB> It takes brains to be a good antag.
<crip> hmph. I’m behaving. don't push it.
<Rudedog> they are to be despised or pitied, but never identified with
<Jean> i would think that the antag would have to be "dumber" than the hero
to a point
<Jean> the hero always "outsmarts" them
<Sea Witch> You've never read the "Noddy" books then
<LilRed> A stupid antag would be no challenge.
<Jean> i just mean not as smart as the hero
<Jean> you know?
<Rudedog> alright, I didn't mean that the main antags are dumb
<Sea Witch> It wouldn't be interesting to have a dumb antag. Your protag
needs a worthy adversary
<Rudedog> they MUST be nearly as clever as the protag
<LilRed> I thought antags were spose to be really smart, but heartless.
<Rudedog> can be
<Rudedog> or can be cross motivated with the protag
<Rudedog> that is what? A tragedy?
<Casey> In real life they are, Chip.
<Sea Witch> Not heartless. There's no fun in heartless. They need to be
real mean bastards
<Rudedog> heartless can be dramatic too
<Sea Witch> Only if the protag has just ripped it out
<Sea Witch> heh heh
<Rudedog> betrayal stories do that
<DaveC> O Mean bastards, as in "I'll rip your heart out and feed it to my
dog."
<Casey> A lot depends upon the story you're telling and what effect you want
to achieve.
<LilRed> I prefer to write antags who think they're doing the right thing.
<Sea Witch> The ones who smile benignly while doing it are the worst
<Rudedog> and how "bad" you want your villain
<Rudedog> or appear to be helping
<Casey> Good one, Rude.
<BeckyB> In my stories there is a lot of room for dumb. I've discovered
that I have made some of the most stupid mistakes and so I have to have
really stupid characters because it is a reflection of me.
<BeckyB> You know. The sort of thing. The note you had to destroy said to
take the army left at the rivers fork, or was it right?
<Sea Witch> Ambition is a good driver of characters.
<DaveC> How about all of the above.
<Rudedog> or treat the protag like a rag to used then discarded
<Sea Witch> A character is what you want him/her to be.
<Rudedog> the "manipulative" villain
<Rudedog> there are many villain templates
<DaveC> My antag is all of these and a tad more. He appears to help through
2/3rs of the story, but then you find out he is absolutely heartless and
wants the entire planet DEAD.
<Rudedog> Actually, I learned much about villain creation from a D&D book
<Sea Witch> smart, dumb, good or evil. those things are in all of us. How
many of us can honestly hold up our hands to having done some dumb things?
<Rudedog> the villain handbook I think
<Casey> I think the trick, no matter the type of antag or protag, is to have
strong reasons for the way they are and what motivates them. Then anything
is plausible.
<Rudedog> covers all the basics from a storytellers position
<DaveC> I can . . . honestly
<BeckyB> Daily.
<Sea Witch> Me too
<kissfan> witchie I am hiding under my desk now LOL
<LilRed> I like protags and antags with the same goals.
<DaveC> Casey, you hit the nail directly on dead center.
<Rudedog> Smiles and holds up hand
<Casey> Absolutely! *hand up*
<kissfan> I am hiding with my hand up LOL
<Rudedog> LilRed, I agree. That is kind of the bounty hunter mentality.
Good cop, bad cop
<BeckyB> Maybe not daily, a week ago Wednesday I think.
<Sea Witch> The dumbest thing I did today was to go shopping for a
cellphone. Fortunately I saw sense and came back with a new pair of shoes
instead.
<Rudedog> D&D is undercover training for writers
<LilRed> I'm Chip actually. I'm just using lilred's puter.
<DaveC> Every character, particularly a main character good or bad must be
motivated by something. Without motivation, why would they even care.
<Jean> a much better choice sw, lol
<Rudedog> yup
<Jean> or why would the reader, dave
<Sea Witch> You said it 'Dog. I came to relish being the dungeon keeper.
Designing the game is so much more fun
<Rudedog> Must have motive or he didn't done it
<Rudedog> I prefer playing because I get into all sorts of "linear DM!"
arguments.
<Rudedog> OR alternately "You're such a FU DM, dude"
<DaveC> Exactly, Jean. They have to care . . . your characters. And for them
to care, you have to care about them.
<Jean> this is what i attempt to do
<LilRed> Here! Here! Dave.
<Rudedog> being a PC that is.
<Rudedog> SW, how did you get your players to respect your decisions?
<Sea Witch> I threatened them with evisceration
<Rudedog> They would have argued with me about the plausiblity of Divine
intervention
<Rudedog> sigh
<Rudedog> they were ornery chaps
<Sea Witch> If you have an unruly bunch they either abide by the rules and
dragon dice or they're out
<Rudedog> I wish I had a bigger pool to draw from
<BeckyB> I'm going to ask my question now because I really do need the
advice. If that's okay.
<Rudedog> shoot
<Casey> Go for it, Becky!
<Sea Witch> I kicked off a college D & D club. Strangely enough the
regulars were all studying science.
<Rudedog> did one try to build a magical AC unit or an ice ship?
<Sea Witch> Not in my experience.
<Rudedog> poor me
<Sea Witch> They had to work with what they had.
<Rudedog> crazy brother
<Rudedog> took engineering and ran with it
<BeckyB> The piece of historical fiction that I'm working on covers a time
span of 80 years. the main thing I'm wrestling with is where do you start.
Just the main events after 40 years and just talk about what happened
before.
<Rudedog> flashbacks and historical rumor
<Casey> Flashbacks are difficult to pull off well.
<BeckyB> I don't want to leave out wonderful parts, but I want it to flow.
<Sea Witch> Go from the beginning. It's hell trying to write a story in
constant flashback
<Rudedog> prologue and cut to main
<DaveC> Becky, I'm doing the same thing right now. I handled the situation
in a fairly lengthy prologue.
<kissfan> have people talk about what happened in the past. their memories
<Casey> My story begins 20 years before its opening line. The history comes
in as its relevance becomes important.
<Rudedog> Robert Jordan did something like that in his first Wheel of Time
book. (Read it NOW. You will not regret it)
<LilRed> When are you writing about?
<Rudedog> In fact read ALL of them!
<BeckyB> I could do 40 years in a prolog, but the other 40 is the main
story. But it is more like 2 stories.... Arg
<DaveC> I thought about the flash back thingy, but gave up on it. Too hard
to handle, as Casey said.
<Casey> I begin with the event that kicks off the major conflict throughout
the book.
<BeckyB> I like the idea of the history coming in as it is important.
<LilRed> What historical period?
<Rudedog> Flashbacks require a decent character intro AND nearly constant
action. Difficult, but not impossible
<Sea Witch> Start the story with a bang. A proverbial one that is
<DaveC> I used history. Changed it a tad to meet my needs, then jumped to
today in Chapter one.
<Rudedog> think compressed thoughts
<Rudedog> lol
<LilRed> And is the history important to the plot or is more of a setting?
<Rudedog> do so, SW. He is the bomb. (my idol)
<BeckyB> That is the problem. I got the idea from Zach to write it on
something religious since that is what is most important to me, and I know
that is going to open a big can of worms if I have too many group members
reading it.
<Casey> The trick, with so much back history, is to keep the opening simple
enough (the fewest number of names--both place and people--for a reader to
remember)
<Rudedog> introduce the history as the protag learns about it
<Sea Witch> I like GGk, Donaldson and so on. JV Jones is shaping up into a
damn good fantasy writer
<DaveC> Red. it is both. The prologue sets the stage for the entire novel.
Without it, there is no novel, no story to tell. Based on a true event, I
took liberties as not true record actually exists.
<Sea Witch> Zach carried off the religious angle with aplomb Becky.
<Jean> I hate people in a writing group tell me that I shouldn't use a
prologue
<Jean> but i think it helps my story tremendously
<Sea Witch> Prologues have their uses Jean. They carry a lot of useful
information that is difficult to fit into the story
<LilRed> The reason I asked, Becky, is that I think it also depends on
whether the period and events are ones most people would be familiar with.
<Casey> I considered a prologue but decided against it. So far, the story
is working without it. No problems.
<Rudedog> depends. A bad prologue can kill interest while a good prologue
can wet the appetite, so to speak.
<Sea Witch> So true 'Dog. Many prologues have a high yaw factor
<Casey> True, Chip. If a period is generally familiar, a lot of information
is unnecessary.
<DaveC> My prologue is pure action, so why not use one. I agree, NEVER use a
prologue as a data dump.
<Jean> doesn’t it help to add to the story without that part being actually
current in the story
<Rudedog> if the reader yawns even once, cut it!
<BeckyB> Yes, but I have been keeping most of the story under my hat because
of past arguments and worrying that I'd be getting into large arguments of
whether or not a book based on characters from the Book of Mormon is
historical fiction or fantasy. I just worry about starting new fights, but
I want to share it too. Internal conflict.
<Rudedog> the prologue is your first impression, make it good or else
<Casey> Again, Jean, that depends upon the story you're telling. It's not a
yes or no kind of rule.
<crip> sounds interesting, Becky. Go for it!
<Jean> well, i'm for leaving it in
<Jean> at least in THIS story
<Rudedog> if you say it is historical, great. But that isn't the point is
it?
<Jean> i agree, one is not needed in ALL stories
<BeckyB> Thanks Crip,
<Casey> Then definitely keep it, Jean.
<Sea Witch> How some writers do it is by introducing a short passage from a
fictitious history book.
<DaveC> Becky, so share and be darned with what conflicts might arise. Think
about it. Any book you write about the Mormons is going to be controversial.
<LilRed> If you are targeting it to a general audience, you would have to
impart a lot of facts since most people wouldn't be familiar with the Book
of Mormon.
<kissfan> That sounds really interesting Becky
<Rudedog> Yes, SW. That is pretty common. I've even seen it as the entry to
each chapter.
<Rudedog> Very dramatic if done well
<Casey> Controversial makes many books bestsellers, Becky. Don't be
intimidated by that perspective.
<DaveC> I agree 100% with Casey.
<Jean> controversy is a very interesting thing
<Rudedog> and kills others... I don't understand.
<LilRed> And if there is a lot of facts to get in, you might want to keep
the story line fairly straight. Too many flashbacks in unfamiliar history
would be difficult.
<BeckyB> The problem is that those fights I had 2 years ago took a lot out
of me and I have been afraid to discuss certain things. It brings in so
much politics and difference.
<Rudedog> make flashbacks memorable, brief, and uncommon
<LilRed> People should critique how well you tell your story not the theme
itself.
<Sea Witch> It's in the style 'Dog. How good you are at spinning a line
<Sea Witch> Why some things work and others don't
<Casey> Also, it's in the philosophical points and how well they're made.
<Sea Witch> You got it Chip.
<Rudedog> but they will critique the theme. Be prepared
<Casey> Not in our critique groups they won't!
<Rudedog> I was speaking about the populace
<DaveC> Becky, so write your book, then do the fighting. You won't get heat
from a group like this, only from those I think you are near to. Write it,
then worry about it.
<Sea Witch> I never critique theme, only content.
<Jean> I agree with Dave
<kissfan> so do I
<Jean> you can't please everyone...ever
<Rudedog> granted, lol
<Casey> (I remember those arguments, Becky.)
<BeckyB> What intimidates me is knowing that it would start another fight
with Zen and I won't do that again. But I have to write the book it's in my
blood, that is why I've not been around much. I've worried about how
compatible it would be to talk about in a fantasy and Sci-fi group. But I
miss my friends when I stay away.
<Rudedog> what do you think about red herings?
<Sea Witch> Zen fights with everyone Becky
<LilRed> Are you writing about the history of the Mormons or the contents of
the book of Mormon?
<Casey> I teach writing, Becky. Period. It transcends genre.
<kissfan> If you are happy with it then write it, don't let others control
you
<Sea Witch> I'm writing a history book too Becky. A non-fic one
<Casey> I myself write mainstream, poetry, nonfiction and songs. How
compatible are they with SF and Fant?
<LilRed> Lately, I write nf articles mostly.
<BeckyB> No, I am writing a story with characters based on the book of
Mormon. Takes place from about 170 BC to 90 BC. More like a story based on
Noah.
<Rudedog> very. There are just some special concerns that you don't have to
deal with.
<LilRed> I think that would be cool.
<BeckyB> Or Adam and Eve, that sort of thing.
<Sea Witch> Sounds interesting. I know very little about Mormons except
when they knock on the door.
<kissfan> I write whatever wants to come out of me at the time and right now
it is a romance story. Later I can go beck to the other stories and fix
them.
<BeckyB> Sure you do witchy. You know me.
<Sea Witch> GRIN
<Sea Witch> I know they invented the Sundae!
<Rudedog> Kissfan, I do too. I can only write what interests me, and right
now unfortunately it is pokemon
<Jean> that's why we write, isn't it? to express ourselves however we want
to
<Sea Witch> Quite right Jean.
<LilRed> I think a brief prologue or intro might be helpful saying that the
story is based on the book of Mormon and what that is etc.
<Sea Witch> We express our creativity in words
<Casey> Pokemon is hot, Rude. Don't apologize!
<BeckyB> Ice Cream and Jello. The state foods.
<Sea Witch> It's 5 am over here. Witchie is going to say bye bye now
<shorty103> nite SW
<Rudedog> I get TONS of flak from people my age
<Jean> wicked dreams sw
<Jean> lol
<kissfan> ok Witchie have a good night
<LilRed> Night Witchie.
<Rudedog> and I miss the target audience by about 5 years
<Sea Witch> See you all when I finally get back online.
<crip> speaking of hot, did anyone see what j.k. rowling got paid alone for
her new book? 45 MILL!!!
<Sea Witch> See Casey & Chip. Witchie can behave herself sometimes
<LilRed> Good Witchie!
<kissfan> So? do you think the creators of pokemon is 14? i hardly doubt it
LOL
<Casey> Casey is proud of Witchie poo.
<Sea Witch> It's more fun being bad though. Evil laff
<Rudedog> good point ^_^
<Rudedog> I think they are 45 and 29 respectively
<Casey> What in the world did she write about, Crip?
<crip> harry potter
<Jean> i read an article about the creator of pokemon, very interesting
<Jean> now i know what they are all about
<Rudedog> As a myth I like it. However, the cartoon frequently leaves much
to be desired
<Rudedog> I just "Borrowed" the setting and reorganized it to be more adult
<Jean> no one should ever be "embarrassed" about what they are writing
<Rudedog> plus, there is the topic of intelligence among the animals
<Rudedog> What right do humans have to enslave such creatures?
<Jean> we all write what is in us
<Casey> I wonder if that's true for the people who write porn. (Scary
thought)
<crip> ewwwww
<Rudedog> 0_0
<Rudedog> Depends ^_^
<LilRed> Becky, have you by any chance seen Longitude on AE?
<Jean> people write about what interests them, whatever that may be
<Jean> or from life experience
<BeckyB> NO, what is it.
<crip> the bajillion hourlong mini-series?
<Jean> like steven king or wes craven (the nightmare guy)
<Casey> Some writers write to earn an income while they write what they love
(which isn't selling at the moment).
<LilRed> A very exciting historical drama on the history of measuring
longitude.
<Rudedog> lol
<Rudedog> exciting...
<Rudedog> Kind of like a heartwarming tale of the life of a cheese grater
<LilRed> It starts with an intro by the daughter of the guy who rebuilt the
sea clocks in the 20s and then has an intertwining story of the man who
built the clocks in the 1700s and the guy who rebuilt them and got them in
museums.
<LilRed> Complicated intertwining story but it works.
<LilRed> It is exciting. It has shipwrecks and sailors dying of scurvey.
<BeckyB> I'm not embarrassed about what I'm writing. I was pulled into the
story by the image of the king's son standing his ground and the invading
forces close in, watching as his father and his guards run, leaving the
women and children to be slaughtered and slow down the enemy. Then him
keeping them together as slaves to the invaders and trying to maintain peace
and hope. I love what I'm writing.
<BeckyB> Sorry, going overboard, but finally writing something I can be
passionate about.
<BeckyB> More of a Moses freeing the children of Isreal story, but with a
lot more villians. And Sex.
<LilRed> Very exciting and I think it would pique curiosity since people
aren't familiar. Especially if you write it as a drama and it isn't preachy.
<LilRed> Yes, and you don't have to be Christian or Jewish to find Moses
exciting.
<kissfan> Then write it Becky
<kissfan> wow cool I would like to have a copy of it when it's published
Becky
<Jean> then you should keep writing it, Becky, it sounds wonderful
<Rudedog> It sounds very dramatic
<Rudedog> Yes, inform, don't preach
<Rudedog> preachy style sucks
<Rudedog> structure your challenges to your readers more gently and
carefully
<shorty103> wow Becky, sounds interesting
<BeckyB> So, what are you writing Red?
<LilRed> Chip.
<LilRed> I haven't had time for fiction. I write nf articles for work and
create brochures etc.
<Jean> do you WANT to write fiction lilred?
<LilRed> I sent Help Wanted out again and got another rejection.
<Casey> But that was because you missed the contest deadline!
<LilRed> No, I got a "You write well but its not write for our list".
<Casey> Awwwww.
<BeckyB> So what is Help Wanted?
<Casey> That was a fast turnaround!
<LilRed> I don't think it was as much a contest as Warner opening up
temporarily for new writers .
<Casey> Good thing I didn't risk it and send Moons' Kiss. It's not nearly
finished. I'd have panicked if they'd asked for the ms. after two weeks.
<LilRed> My problem is I don't fit any genre.
<Rudedog> hehe, I don't think I've ever "finished" a work
<Rudedog> explain?
<BeckyB> Starting your own genre?
<Jean> casey?
<LilRed> I don't know how to describe what I do.
<Casey> There's a quote I posted on NW's site: Good writing is risky
because it is different. That's why publishers are hesitant to publish it.
<Casey> Then it goes on to become a bestseller. Go figure.
<Rudedog> does that mean that BAD writing isn't risky?
<Casey> Most isn't.
<BeckyB> Casey, you would have loved it and dropped everything. Imagine
Warner asking you for your ms.
<Rudedog> ms?
<Casey> Loved it, but still panicked.
<BeckyB> manuscript
<Rudedog> ahh
<kissfan> Ya really you would be celebrating
<LilRed> I don't write strongly plotted stories with admirable protags that
adolescent males can identify with.
<BeckyB> celebrating with a typewriter and 3 pots of coffee.
<Rudedog> god, if someone asked for the ms of my pokemon story I'd die
<Casey> Jean?
<Rudedog> I don't write fast at all
<Rudedog> it is just boom or bust
<Rudedog> and it is always slow
<Casey> I write slowly, too. Normally.
<Jean> do you email us with the topic of discussion for each discussion?
<LilRed> What do I write, Casey?
<Casey> Yes, Jean.
<Jean> ok, i have to go now
<Jean> so i will look forward to your email
<Casey> Mainstream with bizarre occurrences?
<Rudedog> current fantasy?
<LilRed> Yeah something like that. Social satire? Kind of Vonnegut?
<BeckyB> Do you mean twilight Zone sort of stuff or something different?
<Rudedog> TZ was current fantasy
<LilRed> I like to look at our society from the outside.
<kissfan> I like when sometimes you give us quick assignments during class
and have us put them up that can be fun to do makes me have to think
<Casey> I like seeing how different each of us handles the same assignment.
<Rudedog> I would share my work, but I'm afraid that you folks wouldn't have
the necessary background to understand it
<Rudedog> at least without consulting a 10 year old
<Casey> My son was grown before Pokemon made it big. I've only recently
seen the trading cards.
<kissfan> LOL don't be so sure I am forced to sitting through pokemon and
digimon all the time
<LilRed> We could still crit your style perhaps.
<Rudedog> I'm still trying to decide if that is bad.
<BeckyB> Oh I don't know about that. After all I have a 6 year old who
loves pokemon.
<Rudedog> Ok, as I've said, it is at
<Rudedog> go.to/dogzone
<Rudedog> fanfic area
<Rudedog> I would appreciate any critism you could spare
<Rudedog> ^_^
<BeckyB> Are there currently any crit groups going casey?
<Casey> I usually offer new members a sample of my writing, if they're
interested. So they can decide whether I know anything worth learning.
<Casey> YES, Becky! Two.
<BeckyB> You do.
<Rudedog> You sound like a teacher, that's enough for me
<Rudedog> lol
<Casey> Dreamers' Ink (for advanced writers) and DI2 for less experienced
writers.
<BeckyB> Spoken like a true college student.
<Rudedog> I'm an eager student
<BeckyB> When do they meet?
<Casey> They're conducted via email. Russ is the moderator of DI, he and I
co-host DI2
<Casey> Are you interested in joining?
<kissfan> Speaking of DI2 is it my turn next or is someone before me
<Rudedog> hm, not sure. What are the obligations?
<BeckyB> Sounds good. I think I'd better start with the DI2 since I don't
consider myself more experienced. Not bad, but still.
<Casey> To critique and be critiqued. There's a two week turn-around time.
Crits in rotation.
<Rudedog> I'm not sure how much help I'd be in critiquing
<Casey> Okay! I'll let Russ know, Becky.
<Rudedog> I try though
<kissfan> YAY one more for DI2
<Casey> In DI2, we teach critiquing to anyone who's never done it or rarely
done it.
<shorty103> what is D12 about, okay Kathy, Casey, would this be for
someone like me, this D12
<BeckyB> Though I will warn you. I am not nice. When I see garbage, I call
it garbage. I do usually try to bring up nice points, but I have been known
to be blunt.
<Casey> Yes, Rose.
<Rudedog> I do it fairly often, I'm just not sure how well
<shorty103> when do you meet for this class Casey
<Rudedog> I can send you a sample I did for a fellow pokemon writer
<LilRed> I can vouch for Casey. If you want glowing praise, forget it.
<LilRed> She does a thorough, honest critique that is constructive, not a
tear down.
<kissfan> I did my first ever crit with the group
<BeckyB> Though if I know the person is new I usually tone it way down.
<Casey> You'll have an opportunity to read others' crits, Rude. You'd get
an idea of how well you do that way.
<Casey> It's handled through email only, Rose.
<kissfan> done through email Rose
<Casey> That's a requirement, Rude--a sample before you're accepted. I'll
let Russ know.
<Casey> (He's injured his foot and can't sit at the comp--for a week now!)
<Rudedog> I'll try. DI. If I get in over my head I can always bow out.
<shorty103> Oh okay, I'll think about it before I comment myself
<Rudedog> Always constructive
<Rudedog> Critique sample or writing sample?
<kissfan> I felt that DI2 would also help keep me moving forward since I
have to have something done for the group to crit HEHEE
<Casey> That's fair, Rude.
<Casey> Writing sample.
<Rudedog> k
<Rudedog> I'll check my files and see what I would like torn apart
<Rudedog> ^_^
<kissfan> Ok when is my turn to submit to DI2 Casey?
<Casey> You were after Russ, but he's injured, so if you'd like to submit
now, do so. Tomorrow's the deadline for submission.
<BeckyB> Give me some time. It's Parade of Homes week and I am swamped and
would like time to proof my stuff first.
<LilRed> Be careful what you ask for...
<kissfan> EEEEEK ok LOL I will go over my chapter and get it to you LOL
<Casey> It will be a while, Becky. DI2's queue is set. It'll probably be a
month, at least.
<BeckyB> Good.
<Casey> Hey, why drag my heels and fool around, huh? (Kathy)
<Rudedog> does anyone here listen to music while writing?
<Casey> I can't. I need complete silence.
<kissfan> LOL was hoping for a little time but it won't take me long to
double check it and send it out LOL
<BeckyB> I avoid it, It has too big of an effect with what I'm writing.
<LilRed> I do all kinds of things while writing.
<Rudedog> I listen to orchestra music. Star Wars and conan soundtracks are
popular with me
<LilRed> Driving, weed pulling...
<kissfan> I do all the time Rude. Sets the mood for writing about a rock
star LOL
<Casey> If you need more time, you can take a couple days.
<Rudedog> and of course, pokemon songs. LOL
<Rudedog> MS word's check SUCKS!
<Casey> I'm forever adding words to it!
<kissfan> LOL I don't use word I use Star Office
<Rudedog> I have to hit "ignore" more often then change
<LilRed> You should see what it does with a bunch of aliens with accents.
<BeckyB> lol
<Casey> I'm still insulted that it wants to change Manerra's name to Manure
<kissfan> LOL I love it when it doesn't even recognize a common name Like
Kathy
<Rudedog> LOL
<BeckyB> Names you just have to add or it takes forever to spell check.
<LilRed> I keep expecting to see smoke coming out of my puter.
<Rudedog> that is what "add" is for
<LilRed> Oh duh! That's what crashed my computer!!
<Rudedog> my brother's computer won't even format anymore. It is FUBARed
<kissfan> LOL Ya I know and one of my charactor's name is Skye
<Rudedog> It won't boot windows, but dos works
<Casey> I'm working on wearing out my second computer. (Boy, I hope not!)
<Rudedog> I had to enter all of the pokemon names. You would be surprised
to see what it told me to change them to
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> I can imagine! Silly spell check.
<LilRed> They need to make a version for fiction writers.
<Rudedog> some day I'm going to write a story about my little elf model
<Rudedog> he is a miniature for d&D and he is so cute
<LilRed> Is there a way to tell word to allow contractions and slang?
<BeckyB> Casey, do I need to submit something before I can get on the list
and before I can critique? I'm really NOT ready to send this yet.
<BeckyB> If so I'll send something old.
<Casey> Yes, Becky, but it doesn't have to be what you're presently working
on. And it doesn't have to be long.
<BeckyB> Okay. I'll email you something.
<Casey> One member just got involved with a pay-per-click site.
<Rudedog> how did that turn out?
<Casey> Are you guys familiar with that?
<kissfan> Heard of it and never tried it
<Rudedog> ad banners on your site?
<Rudedog> or email readings?
<Casey> It was timely. I'd just gotten an article about pay-per-click sites
and sent it to her.
<shorty103> I understand the pay-per-click thing, and what did you learn
about it
<Casey> Your article posted to a site. If surfers click through to your
article, you get paid 10 cents, oftentimes less, per click.
<Rudedog> I signed up for a scholorship search and now I get 20+ spams a
week
<Casey> It's not worth your time as a writer. At all.
<kissfan> Ya I would say. My time and energy for writing something is worth
more than that
<Casey> My own experience in trying to locate Jen's article:
<Casey> I clicked both links she sent. Even the one that was supposed to be
a direct link to her article pulled up a page that wanted me to sign up for
something. I declined and told her sorry. I get enough junk email without
having a ton more added through this site.
<shorty103> I don't blame you Casey
<Rudedog> figures...
<Rudedog> and I agree with kissfan
<kissfan> I get junk email for porn sites all the time and I don't even go
to those
<Rudedog> even though anyone can read my work for free
<Casey> Most writers who did it earned less than $1 for 3 months' exposure.
One earned almost $3,000, but for 267 articles. About $10 per article.
Some lost rights to their articles and found them on other sites, apparently
sold, and got no revenue from that sale.
<kissfan> DAMN! well that isn't right or fair!
<Casey> It's some of the caveats when dealing with those types of sites.

(Chit-chat edited out)

<Rudedog> sequels never seem to hold up
<Casey> Publishers and fans can pressure a writer into continuing a saga
beyond his brilliant ideas and desire to. It happened to Dune's creator.
<kissfan> Ya it did
<Rudedog> Yup.

<Rudedog> Dune died a slow lingering death
<Casey> I thought so. Eddings books, too.
<Rudedog> hold on a sec, I'm going to check my closet
<Rudedog> BRB
<Rudedog> Micheal Stackpole is great too
<Casey> Usually we get BRB's for potty breaks! This is a first for a closet
break.
<Rudedog> Writes Battletech novels amoung other things
<Rudedog> I've been reading Eddings
<Casey> It's nearly 3 a.m. your time!
<shorty103> yep it is, and I'm feeling it
<Rudedog> gives me hope for my future writing career
<Rudedog> ^_^
<Rudedog> I'm used to 4am bedtimes
<Casey> Crip gave us all hope for our writing careers with a book he read
and critiqued.
<Rudedog> It wasn't THAT bad. I just think I could do as well
<Rudedog> Eddings wanders away from his characters some times
<Casey> For me, his second trilogy had a major story flaw.
<Casey> Killed the writing for me.
<Rudedog> what was that?
<Rudedog> I'm two books into the second triligy and am debating on if I want
to continue
<Casey> He did not establish a relationship between Garion and his son (and
went beyond that to show there was no relationship). Then had Garion go
thorough every kind of disaster to get his son back.
<Rudedog> Wait three
<Rudedog> I know. I was screaming "kill all your palace guards" about half
way thought the first book
<Casey> I was rooting for the witch to make mincemeat of the kid.
<kissfan> LOL
<Rudedog> Because if they could let that many assasination attempts and
general unpleasentness happen They must have been incompetent
<Rudedog> Witch?
<Casey> Exactly.
<Casey> The woman who kidnapped Garion's son had some kind of power and
needed the kid for something.
<Casey> I gave up reading before several such questions were answered.
<Rudedog> Plus, after you have saved the world from a dark prophecy once
another round is not very interesting
<Casey> There were too many logic flaws in the second trilogy.
<Rudedog> However, I like what he did with Errand
<Rudedog> but the further characterization of the Malloreon king was a let
down
<Casey> I liked many of his characters. That's why I began the second
trilogy. It was the story that killed the books for me.
<kissfan> That may be why I couldn't get through the series
<Rudedog> I think having read Robert Jordan spoiled the books a little for
me
<Rudedog> He does everything so much better
<Rudedog> (I'm a BIG fan) Poor guy has cancer though
<Casey> I'll have to find Robert Jordan. Just don't tell Crip I'm doing
anything other than writing.
<Rudedog> I HOPE that is the reason why his last book sucked
<Rudedog> It felt like he didn't edit it at all.
<Casey> That happened to one of Cherryh's books. The editor missed a big
editing snafu
<Rudedog> Well, this one was like he started brainstorming and forgot to cut
the dull parts and polish the writing
<Rudedog> It felt half done
<Rudedog> and it was short for Jordan. Only 600 pages
<Casey> Could be contract deadline pressures. That's a shame.
<Casey> And expecting his editor to earn his cut?
<Rudedog> No, jordan pretty much sets his own deadlines i think
<Casey> He'd be one of the few rare ones.
<Rudedog> he only releases once every two or three years
<Casey> Ahh. That's nice.
<Rudedog> I think he is REALLY sick
<Rudedog> Visit tor books webpage
<kissfan> possibly he wasn't doing well due to his cancer treatments at the
time
<Casey> I could deal with a publication schedule of that frequency.
(rarity?)
<Rudedog> their wording makes me think he gets a lot of leeway
<Casey> Sounds like it.
<Rudedog> well, his average book size is around 8 or 9 hundred pages.
<Rudedog> each is about two to three normal books
<Casey> Writers who must turn out 4 books a year can't possibly keep up
quality. I want to be shot before I publish some of the trash I've read
from otherwise excellent writers.
<Rudedog> Of course he still somethings can go though a book where hardly
anything happens
<Rudedog> agreed
<Rudedog> It took me about 6 months to write the 7 chapters of my pokemon
fanfic and some of them are barely two pages long. (in 10 font SS)
<Casey> My novels, consistently, have run to 700 pages in recent years.
<Rudedog> Of course the last two are quite a bit longer
<Casey> I don't seem able to tell a short story. Or develop what I develop
in 250 pages.
<Rudedog> that’s pretty good
<Rudedog> Do you have extensive characterization? that and exhaustive
detail usually explains length
<Rudedog> One of the things I love about jordan is that he never scrimps on
the detail
<Casey> Extensive characterization—-in dept characterization--yes. Not
exhaustive detail. I tend to be a subtle writer. Readers must figure out
significances on their own.
<Rudedog> and you will get huge tracks about what things looked and smelled
like
<Casey> I work descriptions into actions and dialogue. I'm very big on
reasons and motivations, though.
<Rudedog> I tend to favor dialog very heavily
<Casey> My stories are character-driven.
<Casey> I love dialogue!
<Rudedog> though I'm not opposed to detailing a scene, I just usually forget
<Rudedog> It is probably my biggest weakness
<Rudedog> I don't adequately describe characters and settings
<Casey> Zen (my harshest critic) tells me my description is very good, so I
must be doing something right.
<Rudedog> where was your sample stuff again? I might like to get a few
pointers
<Casey> On disks. I'll locate the chapter I normally share.
<Rudedog> k, I'll watch for it.
<Casey> It's not a first chapter, but it does stand alone. Other than: you
won't know the people I just killed off. You'll get much less impact, but
still, it's a good example of how I write.
<Rudedog> How many words should a novel chapter be?
<Casey> One of mine is 3 paragraphs long!
<Rudedog> !!
<Casey> No set. Usual is about 12 to 18 pages.
<Rudedog> Well, that's different
<Rudedog> in what font?
<Casey> Verdana.
<Casey> I use.
<Rudedog> A paperback page is way different then a MSword page
<Casey> Russ uses something so small i have to change his font as soon as I
get it so I can read what he's written.
<Rudedog> I use words to count. They seem far accurate
<Casey> 250 words per page is standard.
<Rudedog> k thanks
<Casey> It equals very nearly 1 page of print.
<Rudedog> I'll check to see if I'm making length
<Casey> Most people do use word count. I don't until the end and a
publisher needs to know.
<Rudedog> As I've said, I've written 3 full short stories and one that is
slowly developing into a book
<Rudedog> All around 3000 words
<Rudedog> except the chaptered one of course
<Casey> I've written somewhere around 20 novels, one lexicon, and lots of
smaller stuff.
<Rudedog> lexicon?
<Casey> An Old English-English dictionary.
<Rudedog> k
<Rudedog> that's what I thought. For a moment I though it was a new term
<Casey> Nope. You were right.
<Casey> I tend to be very precise in my word choices and use.
<Rudedog> yes, helps doesn't it.
<Casey> Traditional word meanings rather than new, except where I can use
the connotations effectively.
<Rudedog> I just checked. My favorite short story is at 1585 words
<Casey> I love words with double meanings.
<Rudedog> shorter then I thought.
<Casey> Short can glow sometimes.
<Casey> Many times.
<Rudedog> I prefer words that are more precise then ordinary
<Rudedog> Shortens and sharpens
<Casey> It's what creates vivid imagery.
<Casey> Nouns and verbs more so than adjectives.
<