CHAT ARCHIVE - 7-29-00, Multiple Viewpoints

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sat Jul 29 22:18:23 2000

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<Casey> I'm reading two fascinating books at the same time. One makes me
wish we had a physical class. It's got some really cool exercises.
<kissfan> awesome!
<kissfan> can some be adapted?
<BeckyB> What books?
<Casey> Not the ones I've read so far. I'm hoping I'll come across some
that can be.
<kissfan> Oh Darn! I hope some can be too
<Casey> The books are Clear & Lively Writing by Priscilla L. Vail (a
hands-on how to improve writing and
how-perceptions-influence-how-people-write book) and the other is Building
Fiction by Jesse Lee Kercheval, which is a great, practical information and
application manual.
<BeckyB> I think I have read part of Building Fiction. It sounds very
familier.
<Casey> I've read so many mediocre and dull how to write books for New
Writers that it's pleasant to read one that is actually well written and
informative.
<Casey> With the exception of Rose, we may be "It" for now. I'll begin the
grammar lesson.
<BeckyB> Okay.
<Casey> There are four punctuation marks that are used to indicate pauses in
sentences.
<BeckyB> : ; - ,
<BeckyB> Am I right?
<Casey> Each has a different purpose and indicates a different pause length
or significance.
<Casey> With some you've added, Becky, there are actually more than four.
<BeckyB> I'm now thinking that : isn't actually used for a pause.
<Casey> It can, Becky, when used to introduce a list.
<BeckyB> True.
<Casey> It's one I hadn't considered for this particular workshop, but that
was my own oversight.
<BeckyB> Lets see, there's also --
<Casey> The comma indicates the shortest pause and is usually used to set
off parenthetical expressions.
<Casey> That was one thing, I know, I couldn't have done alone, is an
example.
<Casey> Parentheses ( ) are used for a longer pause or to include secondary
information. For that reason, the information enclosed in the parentheses
are considered unemphatic.
<Casey> Example: If I'd known you were in trouble, I would have come (or
John would have come) to get you.
<BeckyB> unemphatic?
<Casey> Not as important to the reader as an emphatic separation would be.
<Casey> Dashes usually indicate greatest emphasis: If I'd known you were in
trouble, I would have come--John would have come--to get you.
<shorty103> I like that sentence with the ( )
<Casey> Finally, ellipsis (three spaced periods, four if they end a
sentence) always indicate words have been omitted.
<Casey> They can come at the beginning of a sentence, middle, or end.
<BeckyB> I've also seen it used in dialog if a person is interrupted.
<Casey> In dialogue: "I hadn't . . . ." (had time to go)
<Casey> I've seen dashes used more frequently for abrupt interruptions in
dialogue.
<Casey> "I hadn't--" "Of course, you haven't!"
<Casey> Either way works, Becky.
<BeckyB> I think I prefer the dashes.
<Casey> I do, too. That's what I tend to use in my writing. Ellipsis I use
only when words have been omitted, as when someone starts to say something
then decides she better not finish what she started to say.
<Casey> When there is not an interruption from someone else.
<Casey> That ends the grammar lesson.
<Casey> Tonight’s main topic is multiple points of view.
<shorty103> LOL, well, I learned something tonight, and I do have my
music on, first time in a long time too,
<BeckyB> It is a very serious topic and one that is difficult to handle in a
way that is natural.
<Casey> As we all know, who the POV character is shapes the kind of story we
tell.
<shorty103> yes, I agree Becky,
<Casey> Or the way the story can be told.
<Casey> Yes, Becky. It's not always straightforward and simple.
<Casey> In researching, I learned some things about POV--how it can be
handled--that I didn't know before.
<BeckyB> 2 POV characters become more difficult to shape than one. And some
authors have a dozen or more.
<shorty103> even more so for a first time writer who is trying to find that
character's pov, it can get very confusing sometimes
<Casey> And the more POV characters you bring into a story, the longer that
story becomes.
<Casey> Probably why my novels run around 700 pages, because the last few
I've completed are all multiple POV.
<BeckyB> Wow
<Casey> Multiple POV brings in issues of transition, Rose, which is a
difficult device for even advanced writers. We're always struggling for
ways to make transitions smoother without losing clarity.
<shorty103> yes, I'm beginning to see that no matter at what level one's
writing is at
<Casey> For warm up, let's assume there's a wedding taking place. Who can
the POV character(s) be for our story?
<kissfan> Yes that is what is giving me a problem now I have 3 Skye, Tasha
and the stalker
<kissfan> the bride and groom
<Casey> Yep.
<kissfan> parents of the b and g
<BeckyB> Bride, groom, priest, guests, family.
<shorty103> Kathy, stop reading my mind here
<kissfan> LOL
<BeckyB> The church mouse.
<Casey> Good, Becky!
<shorty103> good one Becky
<BeckyB> Even the wedding ring could be brought to life.
<Casey> Richard, we're at a wedding and coming up with characters through
whom the POV can be told.
<kissfan> also the bridesmaid that feels like she would never be a bride LOL
<Wwombat> Changing colour -- to purity that reflects my character
<BeckyB> It would most likely sound really lame having a wedding from the
point of view of the ring, but just about anything can be animated.
<Casey> *cough cough* Good, Richard.
<Casey> Exactly, Becky. And one we missed: The bride's kid sister.
<Wwombat> Have you tried the organist ?
<Wwombat> Lots of activity for the organ
<Casey> You just did.
<kissfan> I'll let that comment pass Richard
<BeckyB> Purity?
<Casey> We all knew he was teasing, Becky. His last comment proves that.
<Wwombat> Should I have said the pianist ? That's what I meant, of course
<Casey> Of course.
<shorty103> LOL
<Wwombat> The Brides veil could be interesting
<Wwombat> But maybe no deep insights
<Casey> Each individual and thing presents a different obstacle that would
have to be handled if it became a POV perspective.
<Casey> The veil would be cool, unemotional.
<Wwombat> And a different angle. Why am I thinking of the organ loft?
<Casey> The kid sister might not understand all the adult complexities
happening around her but have resentments, maybe, about being left at home
alone with all the chores and loneliness.
<shorty103> what about picking two of the guests, and see it through their
eyes, is another angle too
<Casey> It's hard to concentrate when I'm laughing, Richard!
<Wwombat> Sorry. I'll cool it
<Casey> Don't. I only explain why my posts may be delayed as I refocus.
<Wwombat> Is the kid sister's name Cinderella?
<Casey> Could be whatever you want it to be.
<Casey> What would be the difficulties associated with the wedding guests as
POV characters?
<Wwombat> The kid brother could be contemplating the next target for his
catapult
<kissfan> Or how nice it would be to finally get his sister's larger room
<BeckyB> It would be difficult to transition them. It's far to choppy to
jump from person to person without either a lead in or some reason for their
POV.
<Rudedog> When switching POV, I like to insert a break
<Rudedog> it lets the reader know in no uncertain terms that something
changed
<shorty103> good idea Rude
<Rudedog> Either a scene change or a POV change
<Rudedog> http://www.pikarpg.8m.com/main1.htm

(Group switched to onsite chat room due to technical problems with ICQ)
(lost the beginning of chat room buffer when I attempted to save it.)



<kissfan> and the guy sleeping in the back row may be having an
interesting dream, until his wife wakes him to stop his snoring LOL
<Rudedog> Yes, but that wouldn't advance the main plot, namely the
wedding
<Jean> but you wouldn't want to bring them into the story unless they
were an important character
<Wwombat> So sub-characters should be stereotypes first
<Rudedog> if he's dreaming he can't be observing
<Becky> We are talking about multiple point of views so the characters
most likely to be deeply moved are bride, groom and very immediate
family.
<Jean> and were going to add something to the story
<kissfan> in other words using the guests would bog the story down
and make it boring to the reader
<Jean> I think so
<Rudedog> UNLESS
<Jean> unless they are there to add something to the story
<Rudedog> and had interesting personalities
<Rudedog> they contributed something interesting
<Wwombat> Whereas describing the minutiae of the ceremony won’t
???
<Rudedog> Depends
<Wwombat> I agree; a wedding’s more interesting if something goes
wrong
<Rudedog> If some minute detail had deep significance
<Rudedog> it would be alright to describe it deeply
<Wwombat> Life and stories are more interesting when something
goes wrong
<kissfan> well a guest might object
<Rudedog> perhaps a hit man was planning to fire a bullet at the
groom during the kiss
<Wwombat> Even on-line chats can be more interesting when things
go wrong
<kissfan> LOL
<Rudedog> that would render the details VERY important
<Becky> I like the way I bet the Simpson's would handle it : Marge: Oh,
how lovely! I wonder who did her hair? Lisa: Someday that will be me
the beautiful bride. Bart: 30 seconds to whoopy cushion. Homer -
Donuts.
<Wwombat> Two hits with one bullet ?
<Rudedog> lol
<kissfan> HEHEE
<Rudedog> lol
<Rudedog> shrugs. Depends
<Wwombat> Red all over the white gown
<Rudedog> Sends a message
<Rudedog> sounds like a mafia story now though
<Rudedog> I'm not sure we're helping ^_^
<Casey> What about the author's role or voice in this as well?
<Rudedog> ???
<kissfan> LOL red dress for a blue lady HEHEE
<Rudedog> a narrator?
<Wwombat> Is the author the bride ?
<Jean> it depends on who the author is
<Wwombat> Or is the author still hiding up in the ......
<Casey> In multiple 3rd person, the author has an omniscient role,
usually limited omniscience.
<Becky> The author can be very interesting. It can be one of the
characters remembering the day, some sort of impassive describer,
or a long list of other possibilities.
<Rudedog> you could play up the differences of perception between
the bride and a hostile guest
<Rudedog> I prefer 3rd limited
<Rudedog> only one stream of thoughts to deal with
<Casey> Most multi POV stories are done in 3rd limited.
<Wwombat> I like 3rd limited. Then only one character knows what’s
happening.
<Wwombat> Surprises are easy
<Wwombat> You don't have to make excuses for not showing the villain
planning
<Rudedog> If you craft it right, you can lay hints and misdirections by
switching POV characters
<Casey> Exactly, rude.
<Casey> "The writer in his work should be, like God in the universe,
present everywhere and visible nowhere." (Fiction Writer's
Handbook by Hallie and Whit Burnett)
<Rudedog> good quote
<Casey> Or reveal facts that can't be revealed when you're limited to
one POV character.
<Rudedog> Yes, when using limited, you can only tell what the POV
character knows
<Wwombat> But you've got to be fair.
<Wwombat> If your POV characters knows something pertinent, they
must tell the reader
<Rudedog> Not necessarily
<Rudedog> they can allude to it without actually saying it
<Rudedog> Let the reader know something is on their mind without
actually spelling it out
<Casey> If the character doesn't reveal his info to the reader, doesn't the
reader feel cheated when that fact does come out?
<Wwombat> The reader feels cheated if you have used a POV character
<Casey> Especially if that fact proves crucial at the climax.
<Wwombat> and use him again, and don't fill in the gaps fully
<Rudedog> No, most mystery stories are done with this technique
<Rudedog> if he knew even a quarter what Sherlock knew
<Rudedog> it wouldn't be interesting
<Casey> Better to let the POV character strive to discover that one fact
and maybe gain only a partial understanding of it. The same purpose
is served.
<Rudedog> yeah, that works too
<Wwombat> In mystery stories, you seldom get the murderers POV
<Rudedog> Sure, just not when he's thinking important things
<Rudedog> only corollary thoughts
<Rudedog> clues so to speak
<Rudedog> People rarely think out full blown stories in their heads while
distracted
<Rudedog> bits and pieces mostly
<Wwombat> OK, we disagree. I think its better to POV the discoverer
<Wwombat> I agree, many stories that reach print have plot holes
<Rudedog> I won't say that discoverer doesn't work, or even that it
doesn't work better much of the time
<Casey> A definition of "Limited omniscient POV": The author has kept
a restricted authorial voice to be used for description or simple
narration, along with the ability to go deeply into one or more of his
characters' minds.
<Rudedog> only that some times you need to drop clues only a villain
knows
<Wwombat> Not being a villain, I can only bow to your superior
experience !!
<Rudedog> ^_^ D&D experience
<Casey> One thing I've discovered about writing is, that any
technique, handled by a pro, can work well.
<Rudedog> amen
<Wwombat> Even in the .... Up there
<Casey> Even blatant violations of writing rules.
<Rudedog> perhaps...
<Rudedog> lol
<Casey> Are you into planetary position bias, Richard?
<Rudedog> 0_-
<Wwombat> Always biased
<Rudedog> LOL
<Wwombat> Haven't tried the planetary position . Is it great for you ?
<Rudedog> RotFL
<Casey> Okay, in handling most POV changes, they are done by
alternation. The characters take turns.
<Casey> Frequently by chapters, or can be by several chapters per
turn.
<Rudedog> otherwise it gets very confusing
<Rudedog> yup
<Casey> But changes can be back and forth or can change only once
in a story.
<Jean> I've always been told to wait for the next chapter to change
POV's
<Wwombat> Chapter POV are clean and clear
<kissfan> It is simpler that way for sure
<Casey> Exactly, Richard.
<Rudedog> usually that also means a change in scene, further
distinguishing the previous voice from the new one
<Jean> yep, I agree
<Casey> But changes within chapters do occur, and that's when it's
typical to insert blank lines, to herald the POV changes.
<Rudedog> I've been known to drop three astrics and start again
<Rudedog> right in the middle of the chapter
<Jean> that's what I do too rude
<Casey> Asterisks are typical, too.
<kissfan> I have done that too
<Jean> because sometimes it's just unavoidable
<Rudedog> :) forgive the atrocious spelling
<Casey> However, POV can change seamlessly in the middle of a
paragraph, too. Anyone guess how?
<Casey> (I don't recommend that as a typical device to be used,
however)
<Rudedog> preface it with a character description
<Wwombat> No
<Rudedog> such as "Across the room, Mel was thinking,"
<Rudedog> ...
<Casey> One story changed points of view when an object was
passed from one character to the other.
<Wwombat> Yes, rude, I think that would work
<Rudedog> yes, but that would be confusing the first time wouldn't it
Casey?
<Wwombat> Description of new character including their thoughts
<Jean> but that's when omniscient kicks in right rude?
<Rudedog> Nope
<Rudedog> just a simple switch
<Casey> If handled well, it shouldn't be confusing.
<Rudedog> you stop hearing Ted's thoughts and start hearing Mel's
<Jean> because who is saying "across the room..."
<Jean> if it's not the omniscient pov?
<Wwombat> That's when I use the *****
<Rudedog> the narrator
<Casey> Let's try an exercise. Everyone write the scene of the object
switch and switch POV with the object's passing.
<Jean> well, that's who I meant by "omniscient”
<Rudedog> Ok, so I cheated a little
<Rudedog> authors can do that
<Casey> (Although this input line does have a maximum character count,
as I've discovered. Unlike ICQ.)
<Wwombat> Write a scene ? It's hard to get a long message
<Wwombat> I can't copy and paste into this message line
<kissfan> Well this is going to be hard to do a scene with this
<Wwombat> Mary loved the cat. The cat didn't love Mary, and escaped
from her arms
<Wwombat> Tony caught the cat and held it tight. But he didn't want to
squash it
<Wwombat> He thought it was too tabby.
<Casey> Jerry glanced at the knife and passed it to Henry. It was just a
kitchen knife. But Henry recognized the maker. This kind of cutlery
was only sold door-to-door.
<Wwombat> Keep your knives away from my cat !
<Rudedog> Jimmy grinned. Randy's last toss had been horrible, so
he thought he would get a little revenge. He intentionally threw the
ball
a foot over Randy's head.
<Casey> Sorry, Richard! *Puts away best door-to-door salesman
cutlery*
<Rudedog> Randy watched Jimmy the release and immediately knew
there was little chance to catch it. Randy barely caught Jimmy's sad
toss. The ball bounced off his fingers, rolled down the bridge of his
nose, and landed in his lap.
<Wwombat> Thanks. Must protect my fellow four footed friends
<Becky> It seems awkward to me to try to change POV in the same
paragraph, having trouble.
<kissfan> Ya so am I
<Casey> It is awkward because we're taught not to do it.
<Jean> let's just all agree not to ever do it...lol
<Wwombat> Rude, I like yours. it is NOT confusing
<Rudedog> I wish I had an example
<Wwombat> But I'm not sure which POV your changing
<Casey> But that would be eliminating a possible device that one day
might be valuable, Jean.
<Wwombat> Or is it all omniscient ?
<Rudedog> Comes very close doesn't it
<Rudedog> What is the difference between omni and sudden POV
changing?
<Wwombat> Probably the rest of the story
<Casey> A good way to switch POV's in the middle of a paragraph or
even sentence is to begin with a name and immediately name the new
POV as the change occurs.
<Wwombat> If you don't name the new POV, we must assume the old
POV continues
<Casey> Exactly, Richard. The reader won't switch with you. Won't
understand that a change has occurred.
<Rudedog> So was mine a good example?
<Casey> I saw where your change occurred--with Randy's catch, so it
worked.
<Becky> Sara smiled; John smiled back. Sara took the glass of sherry
and graciously offered John a seat. John declined, smiling and always
polite, he had to hide the arsenic.
<Wwombat> Becky, I don't see any POV. It's all external
<Rudedog> we are discussing sudden POV changes
<Rudedog> For POV you have to have thought or reference
<Becky> Well, it's a try.
<Casey> We have only action from Sara, then John's thoughts at the
end. The POV might always have been with John.
<Wwombat> Becky, we know you're trying to break good habits
<Casey> But if Becky's lines are assumed to be a continuation of
Sara's POV at the beginning, the switch works.
<Becky> And part of it is trying to get the scene before the letter count
runs out.
<Casey> That's a definite consideration/worry, Becky.
<Becky> Sara needs to show her complete faith and trust (or lack of)
then a switch. Just can't seem to do it without changing paragraphs.
<Wwombat> The blind leading the lame
<Rudedog> I prefer lame
<Jean> does it have to be thought, or can it be vocal?
<Rudedog> no, vocal is omni
<Rudedog> or limited
<Rudedog> anyone can hear words
<Casey> Those are things you'd have to establish earlier in a story,
Becky--the trust she has in John. Through showing, preferably, rather
than telling.
<kissfan> The man in the window watched as Skye pulled Tasha
closer. "Your Beautiful, Princess" Skye said as he kissed her. The
man lifted the camera and quickly snapped a picture. He smiled and
waked away.
<Jean> that's what I thought
<Jean> this is tough
<Wwombat> If it's vocal, it's in quotations with a tag line and a new
paragraph
<Becky> Vocal is action, not the POV.
<Casey> It can be vocal.
<Rudedog> I didn't see a POV change Kissfan
<Rudedog> the camera man could have overheard the quote
<Jean> Here's what I was thinking: "I'm the better player. No, I'm the
better player"
<Casey> The POV of yours doesn't seem to leave the stalker, Kathy.
You begin with him and end with him. The action in the middle is only
what he's observing.
<Jean> but I don't think it works
<Rose> I find myself, I put in too many tags, and that's not good either
<kissfan> Ya I see that now. This is hard
<Casey> That's only normal dialogue, Jean.
<Rudedog> You have to show something that the old POV couldn't
hear, know to show a change in POV
<Rudedog> that's hear/know
<Jean> yep, that's what I thought
<Jean> he thinks he's the better player. she wouldn't know a good
move if it hit her in the face.
<Jean> how's that?
<Rudedog> The second sentence could be the first POV's opinion
<Casey> Use names, Jean, to strengthen your switch.
<Rudedog> You really have to write a longer sample to even attempt
POV change
<Wwombat> But not dirty names -- polite ones
<Jean> but I’m getting closer, no?
<Rudedog> nods
<Rudedog> I thinks so
<kissfan> LOL I can’t seem to be able to do this HEHEE
<Rudedog> I can't even remember the last time I saw it done well
professionally, it is really rare
<Rudedog> Because, I suspect, it is so hard
<Jean> Josh thinks he's the best, Sara said as she threw the ball. I
could beat her any day, Josh said, returning the ball.
<Casey> The trick is to actually BE the first person. Then, become the
second person, and provide personal feelings/thoughts for each
character.
<Rudedog> Still just dialog
<Rudedog> The sample has to be several sentences long to even
hope for success
<Rudedog> Mine was, what, 7 sentences
<Rudedog> took three messages
<Casey> I'll do a quick wrap up, but we'll continue this chat anyway.
<Wwombat> Sounds of crinkly paper as Casey quickly wraps
<Casey> To help prevent confusion in a multi-POV story, maintain a
central focus, like a death, or the wedding we started with, that
unites
all the different characters. A central goal.
<Wwombat> I'll buy that
<Rudedog> sounds right to me
<Rudedog> I have another suggestion
<Rudedog> To help avoid confusion and improve characters
<Casey> What, rude?
<Rudedog> and sharpen your style
<Rudedog> Read
<Rudedog> MANY
<Rudedog> BOOKS
<Rudedog> ^_^
<Casey> Writers should be avid readers anyway.
<Wwombat> Then got no time to write them !!!
<Rudedog> tough isn't it
<Rudedog> but when I haven't read a good book lately
<Rudedog> my writing SUCKS!
<Rudedog> fact of life
<Casey> I read a lot of nonfiction--for research.
<Rudedog> Good work breeds good work
<Jean> it gets better with practice, like everything
<Becky> We could go back to ICQ. It is a little easier to follow and you
can write longer thoughts.
<Casey> Okay, Becky. I think most of the people who couldn't see each
other are now separated.


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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Jul 30 01:25:52 2000

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<Casey> You folks want to continue our main topic discussion or digress?
<BeckyB> either
<shorty103> a little of both
<Jean> I'm eager to continue our topic
<Casey> Okay. Both is possible. I've been talked around before.
<kissfan> was just thinking how to do that switch in a paragraph better
<Jean> such bad pupils, we are
<Jean> lol
<shorty103> not really Jean, just like to gab a lot too
<Casey> Here, rowdiness is permitted. It keeps everyone awake and sharpens
your minds.
<Jean> ok cool
<BeckyB> I don't want to switch in a paragraph, not my style at all. But I
do want to be able to switch well because sometimes you must.
<Jean> i'd like to ask a question when "open forum time" comes around
<shorty103> I think it's here Jean, ask away
<Casey> Some college professor did an informal study somewhere that showed
each time a POV switch occurred, reader interest flagged. That's one
shortfall of switching POV's too often.
<Jean> flagged meaning good, or bad?
<BeckyB> Bad. Interest dropped.
<Jean> oh, then see, all the more reason NOT to do it, he he
<Casey> If I can locate it without too much difficulty, I'll find a scene I
did in Zen's transitions workshop where I successfully switched POV in mid
sentence.
<Jean> especially in the same sentence!
<BeckyB> It can be done, it just hurts my weak little brain.
<BeckyB> So Jean, What did you want to discuss?"
<Jean> well, I’m having a tough time with one of my subplots
<BeckyB> What's the problem?
<Jean> I’m thinking of just leaving it out and making another one
<BeckyB> Why?
<Jean> my main "male" character is being sabotaged by someone within his
company
<BeckyB> Sounds like a main plot. What is the problem subplot?
<Jean> but I'm not very familiar with his line of work, so ???
<BeckyB> That can be hard. What line of work.
<Jean> he's an architect
<Jean> designing buildings for a clothing manufacturer
<kissfan> Casey I reworked something on that switching POV in a paragraph
<BeckyB> Do you know any architects? Especially one who would be willing to
critique.
<Casey> Great, Kathy! Share it.
<Jean> I’ve met a few online
<kissfan> ok LOL I don't know if it works
<kissfan> Tasha handed Skye a cup of coffee and smiled as she sat down next
to him. Skye watched her as she sat her cup onto the coffee table. "Your
beautiful, Princess." Skye said as he pulled her close. Just then a man
appeared at the window. Now that is what I call perfect timing, the man
thought as he raised his camera and snapped a picture as they kissed, then
turned and walked away with a smile.
<BeckyB> You might want to write the rough draft a little sketchy and then
do research to beef it up.
<Casey> There are tons of books on architecture and the job itself. You
shouldn't have any trouble researching enough to sound like you know the
field.
<Jean> yeah, I think I'll get some.
<Casey> That's better, Kathy. There is a definite switch there.
<kissfan> cool
<Jean> woo hoo Kathy
<BeckyB> It isn't a lot of fun to do some of the deep research, but it can
help the realism so much.
<Casey> Manerra did as Yutrenta requested and prayed for the man-thing's
<Casey> recovery, while Aya, watching him, also asked that Acrahh spare the
<Casey> foundling's life. Manerra carried guilt from the Manteen killings,
and
<Casey> because Aya loved him, he did not want this death on his brother's
<Casey> conscience as well.
<Casey> That's the example I was looking for.
<kissfan> Easier to do this here than in the other where there is a limit
on words
<Casey> Yes!
<Jean> I hate research, but also know it's part of the deal
<kissfan> and here you can cut and paste LOL
<BeckyB> Good examples Kathy and Casey.
<Casey> Thanks, Becky.
<Casey> I love research. But then, most of my pleasure reading these last
few years has been nonfiction.
<kissfan> LOL my research is fun I get to watch tons of my favorite group at
work and behind the scenes plus I can go back and remember so many things
that happened around me when I hung out with them
<shorty103> yes, that was good Kathy, and Kim, I liked yours too
<BeckyB> Casey, It pulls it off better than any of the others I've seen
tonight, though be careful because too much of that will make an average
reader’s head spin.
<Casey> That would have been used only once in a novel.
<Casey> And only if that switch was crucial and for some reason I didn't
have the leisure of making the transition a chapter or paragraph break.
<Jean> that's my prob, I rarely read non-fic
<kissfan> sometimes you have to so that you can get the right feel in your
story
<Jean> I totally agree Kathy
<Jean> doesn't mean I have to like it...lol
<kissfan> LOL true
<BeckyB> Non-fiction is all I've had time for lately. Or small sections
from books that I liked and want to try to imitate technique.
<kissfan> LOL I don't even have time for reading at all lately
<Casey> Research can take so many different forms. Live research--from
interviews, or less formally, simply talking to people in a specific field.
<Casey> Reading nonfiction. (There's hardly anything not covered in a book
or article somewhere!)
<Jean> I’ve been doing a lot of one on one research lately, with other
architects/builders
<Jean> it's helping
<kissfan> I got lucky with mine and could watch tapes that have come out on
the band HEHEE
<Casey> Original research, which I've done before. Conducting your own
surveys.
<Casey> First-hand experience--by trying something (sewing, flint knapping,
etc.)
<BeckyB> Another topic of research you might want to look into is fraud and
crime. How is this double cross going to work?
<Jean> maybe I just need to do more and then I’ll figure out if that segment
will work or not in my novel
<Casey> Talking one-on-one is great. People in the profession can tell you
real-life experiences that are not found in textbooks.
<shorty103> Kim, what is flint knapping?
<Casey> Making arrowheads from flint--although a variety of stone can be
used.
<shorty103> right, you told me that once before, forgetful me
<Casey> I've seen original (old) arrowheads made from granite, even.
<shorty103> cool
<Jean> well, that's it for me for now, what was the next topic?
<Casey> That's a good plan, Jean: getting more information first before you
discard the idea.
<BeckyB> Granite would be really tough to work on. Trust me. I've tried to
hurt granite in demos and it is really hard to do.
<Casey> It also doesn't have a fine grain, like flint. I'm not sure how
they worked with it either.
<BeckyB> The next topic I'd like is time.
<Casey> I'm running out of that one really quickly, Becky!
<BeckyB> If you have a long time period you are covering, how do you deal
with the transitions from one generation to another.
<BeckyB> Me too!
<Casey> That's hard. Transitions are probably the hardest part of writing.
<kissfan> LOL Tell me about it!
<BeckyB> I have been toying with a 3 part book with a different main
character for each part, but I fear I will lose readers’ interest by
changing people too much.
<Casey> What ties the 3 parts together?
<Jean> I think if you transition the person in the previous book, it will
work
<Casey> A common tragedy, a common goal?
<Jean> introduce them in a major role
<kissfan> I have been trying to read one like that. about 3 half sisters.
It is hard for me to get through it.
<BeckyB> The three parts are tied together by the events that are happening
it is a story of a group of people Part one growth and conflict. Part 2
becoming slaves. Part 3 fight for freedom.
<Goshwin> Actually that can be done, so long and the story is connected
around a "causality"
<Casey> Jean brings up an excellent point. One way (the device I use) is to
have your characters all together, but use one as the point of view
character. The person who will become the next POV character becomes
familiar to the reader before he/she takes over the role of new story
teller.
<Jean> If the story is interesting enough, it shouldn't make a difference
who is "telling" it
<Casey> Then be certain your focus (all POV's focus) is upon their goal of
freedom. That will unite them all, so the story goal becomes actually more
important or just as important as the people living the story.
<BeckyB> That is true. Part one starts with a main character, His child
could be the main for the next and the third can be another descendent.
<Jean> do all 3 main characters stay in the story throughout all 3 books?
<Jean> sorry, typed that before that was on my screen
<BeckyB> No. The time period is too long. Person one has died of old age
by part 3.
<Casey> If they are linked by blood, or common aspiration, or common
something, readers will move forward naturally with each new POV.
<Jean> readers will be interested in the story, none the less
<Jean> I agree Casey
<BeckyB> I sure hope so. It is a huge challenge.
<Casey> Their goals are to provide a better life for their offspring, so the
reader roots for the goal along with the people--however that's achieved.
<Casey> yes, it is! You don't set small goals for yourself.
<BeckyB> Of course not, I'm not that smart. :-)
<Jean> lol
<Casey> Now, now!
<Casey> I think you can make it work, and work well. There are other
generational stories out--a lot--and they work well.
<BeckyB> Actually I just am always reaching. I don't always make the mark,
but I get a lot further than I would if I didn't try.
<Casey> And you learn a lot in the process.
<kissfan> Ya look at Roots that went over generations and it was a big
success
<BeckyB> True. I love generational stories because they usually have the
level of complexity I enjoy.
<Casey> Very true.
<Casey> And to make it easier on yourself, I found a quote I like a lot.
"Easy reading is hard writing."
<shorty103> even with the movie Roots, I found that very interesting
<Goshwin> Yah, but they are all strongly linked..
<Jean> I love that quote, it's so true
<kissfan> yep it is very true
<shorty103> that is a nice quote Kim
<BeckyB> It sure is Casey. I have to edit at least 10 times before I really
feel my point has been made and it works.
<Casey> Professionals at anything make whatever they do seem easy. But
that's because they've put in uncounted hours of work to achieve that level
of competence.
<Casey> One trick another writer suggested using when writing a multiple
viewpoint novel is to separate all the different viewpoint characters and
read each section through as though it was a separate story. That way, you
can check for consistency of dialogue (if your using dialect), consistency
of goal, of everything else.
<Casey> It helps you eliminate any unnecessary repetitions, too, you'd
forgotten you'd written in.
<shorty103> now that's a great idea
<Jean> great idea
<Casey> I've never done that before. It's a trick I just read about. But
I'm considering trying it.
<kissfan> LOL I do have a tendency to repeat myself as I write
<Casey> Yes, you do, now that you mention it!
<Casey> But we're working on that.
<kissfan> LOL ya and I am trying to stop doing that HEHEE
<Casey> I also have an exercise for you, Kathy.
<kissfan> OH OH!
<Casey> Write three times: They were
<kissfan> LOL
<kissfan> They were
<kissfan> they were
<kissfan> they were
<kissfan> there HEHEE
<Casey> Very good! Now you've got it.
<shorty103> LOL now I have repeated myself again just for you Casey HEHEE
<Casey> That's a trick I learned in learning new vocabulary words. If you
say the word and its definition 3 times, you've got it for life. It works.
<kissfan> cool
<Jean> i've done that myself, and with my 20 yr old, on spelling words
<crip> oh sure smarty pants. tell me now when I’m not in school! *L*
<shorty103> wow, that's a neat trick
<Casey> If I made you write it 50 times, you'd have been asleep by
repetition 25 and woke wondering where you were and what you'd been doing.
<shorty103> LOL, hehehe
<kissfan> true LOL
<Casey> You never know. You could return to school one day. For some
reason. Other than to bomb the place.
<shorty103> then why does it take me 500 repeats to learn things
<crip> so true
<Jean> cause it's not just vocab
<Casey> I found the neatest description to share with you guys. It has to
do with multiple viewpoints, but in an odd and fascinating way.
<Casey> ". . . it didn't amount to much yet--just a gray-celled beginning to
the nest, perhaps no more than three or four inches across. The wasps were
busy at it, like fervent homemakers, all their dangerous, poisonous
temperament set aside for domestic preoccupations."
<Casey> The set up is, a man and woman living together, but their domestic
relationship is fragile and beginning to fall apart. This description (the
wasps) parallel their relationship.
<Casey> In fact, the short story is entitled "Wasps" by Robley Wilson Jr.
<shorty103> that is nice Casey, different
<crip> kewl
<kissfan> ya I like it
<Jean> seems like quite a stretch to me
<Casey> It is a stretch. But the description uses words like "domestic
preoccupations" to link the wasps' activities to the domestic preoccupation
of the couple. They are busily creating a "home" while ignoring the
"poisonous temperament" of the other.
<Jean> I do see that connection, but it makes you think too much to get to
that point
<Casey> The reader expectation is that once that home is built, there will
not be the preoccupation to distract them from what kind of person they've
chosen to live with.
<Casey> I see it as foreshadowing, too.
<Casey> I like writing that makes me think, and I tend to write in a way
that makes my readers think.
<crip> you write? since when?
<Casey> It might also read better in the context of the story its taken
from.
<crip> he he he
<Casey> Ummmmm. . . I've been writing executive orders since my marathon
meeting with Zen! Doesn't that count?
<crip> -no
<Casey> How about note taking for class?
<crip> no
<Casey> You are soooo picky!
<Jean> lol
<crip> yup
<Jean> I guess I am guilty of the "think" story as well...in one of my short
stories.
<Casey> It's that darn transitional thing! It's giving me a headache. That
part I've written 3 times already is about to be written a 4th time.
<crip> ah
<Casey> I have to get a bunch of people to walk 500 miles and make it
interesting to a reader. A Persnickety, PICKY reader!
<crip> you better
<Casey> heh heh heh
<Casey> What was your story, Jean?
<Jean> well, I could tell ya, but that would ruin the "think" part of
it...lol
<Jean> I don't give away where the characters are until the last line in the
story
<Casey> Was the subject matter the part that made a reader think, or the
character's actions?
<Jean> I got a lot of flack in my previous writing group, because the title
was "IT"
<Casey> Stephen King!
<shorty103> that's what I look like with my hair down, cousin It!
<crip> oops
<Jean> it was a question of where they were during the story
<Jean> maybe "think" isn't the word, it's more like "wondering"
<Casey> Wondering is part of thinking.
<Jean> I guess
<Jean> most of my critique group wanted to know "what is it?" during the
whole story
<Jean> do you think I accomplished what I was trying to do?
<Casey> Do you have a hard time judging time span when writing? The
difference between how long it takes you to write a scene and how long it is
in reading length?
<Casey> It sounds like you did.
<kissfan> sounds like 'It" LOL
<Casey> Cute, Kathy.
<Jean> a question for all?
<Casey> Yep.
<Goshwin> ?
<kissfan> couldn't help myself it was too easy
<Jean> my answer then is yes
<Jean> but I always go back and read it to see how long it takes...he he
<Jean> so I know
<shorty103> Casey, when is the next class?
<Casey> August 12th.
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