CHAT ARCHIVE - 3-25-2000, Character Significance

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sat Mar 25 22:16:24 2000

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<Sea Witch> The new WV will be going online maybe tomorrow (or is that today?) <g>
<Casey> Cool, SW! Congratulations!!
<Casey> Does Zen know yet?
<Sea Witch> I didn't know until an hour ago. Mr SW has been working on it all day
<Wwombat> Just 'cos I'm down here
<Sea Witch> Yeah, ain't that typical of us Norther Hemispherists?
<Wwombat> Big bullies. I'll tell Tarquar
<Sea Witch> Adds new meaning to the British North/South divide
<Sea Witch> That's Tarquin!
<Wwombat> Is he North or South? The Americans divided across the compass as well
<Sea Witch> If anyone tried to divide Tarq's compass he'd grease them
<Sea Witch> Messily
<Sea Witch> With his patented Kill-O-Zap
<Wwombat> I'll go and hide again. I can't stand mess !
<Sea Witch> MWAH HAH HAH HAH
<Wwombat> I was trying to invent a Zap-O-Kill
<Wwombat> He got in first
<Wwombat> Is this sanity approaching ?
<Sea Witch> Hey A newbie!
<Sea Witch> Hi Jessie
<crip> YES ONTO THE GRAMMAR LESSON!!!
<crip> oh guess not he he he
<Casey> Tonight's topic is character significance. How to control which characters loom large or small within your story.
<Casey> LOL, Crip, you rat.
<Sea Witch> Lost Jessie
<kissfan> Where did Jessie go?
<Casey> jessie?
<Goshwin> poof
<Casey> This does not bode well. :-(
<Wwombat> Casey, how can you hope to control characters when you can't control us types ?
<kissfan> well we're off to a fine ICQ start
<Sea Witch> LOL marsupial
<Casey> I've already scared her. She writes poetry.
<Casey> Characters are more cooperative.
<Wwombat> Poetic types are fragile ? There was a young lady of .........
<Casey> Okay, at least Jessie's exit wasn't involuntary. We shall continue. I don't know whether she'll rejoin us or not.
<Wwombat> Waiting to be continued
<Casey> How is information about characters revealed?
<Casey> In any story.
<Wwombat> By actions and dialogue.
<Casey> Yep.
<Casey> Given a choice between the two--actions and dialogue--which is a reader more likely to believe?
<crip> dialogue
<kissfan> dialogue
<kissfan> ?
<Casey> Nope. Usually actions. Characters, like real people, can lie.
<Wwombat> Sometimes. He shot him has more impact than "I think I'm going to shoot you."
<crip> I must disagree, teach
<Casey> Why, Crip?
<Sea Witch> Dialogue tells you something about the nature of the beast
<kissfan> Yes a character can do one thing and say another just like we can
<crip> yeah what SW said
<Casey> It can tell you the character's a liar. Afterwards, won't you pay more attention to his plucking feathers from chickens instead of believing him when he says he won't hurt a living creature?
<Sea Witch> The test of a character lies somewhere between dialogue and action
<Goshwin> I'm on Case's side so there (NYAAAA)
<Sea Witch> Teacher's pet!
<Goshwin> (Purr Purr)
<Wwombat> so both action AND dialogue contribute
<Sea Witch> I was thinking RAT
<Casey> The two DO work together (or at opposites) and both are revealing.
<Goshwin> (Churrr Churrr)
<Casey> lol, SW
<Sea Witch> SW takes a bow
<Casey> How else is character revealed?
<Goshwin> (Kicks exposed ass)
<Wwombat> so minor characters should do minor things ?
<Wwombat> The introductory description
<Sea Witch> OUCH!!!! SW rubs affected part
<Wwombat> Now we're back to her backside again !!
<Sea Witch> Mannerisms
<Wwombat> She has mannerisms on her backside?
<Casey> True, Richard. The characters who appear in the first chapter or the introductory scene are usually believed to be significant in the story.
<Goshwin> it was an easy target (hard to miss that BUTT)
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> And a "but" is?
<Sea Witch> Then get your face out of it Gosh
<Casey> (All my grammar students are expected to know that answer)
<crip> um....conjunction?
<Casey> Crip gets an A!
<crip> REALLY????? WOW I GUESSED
<Goshwin> Conjunction junction what's your function
<Sea Witch> Good guess Crip!
<Wwombat> So the opening scene should contain the a main character. If lonely, minor characters are allowed, but they must play second fiddle.
<crip> *LOL* that's what I was thinking too Gosh!!!
<Goshwin> he he he, those were cool tunes)
<Casey> Other ways of revealing info? (Yes, there are more.)
<Wwombat> Initial description of a character
<kissfan> description
<Sea Witch> Hey I was about to say that!
<Wwombat> Should be brief for secondary types
<Casey> How can description be revealed without simply telling by the author?
<Wwombat> Secondary characters are often stereotypes ? Come back to this thought.
<Sea Witch> Another character of course
<Sea Witch> Or looking in a mirror
<kissfan> yep what she said
<Casey> Yes, SW.
<Wwombat> An initial narrative description is accepted on the arrival of a new character in a scene.
<Casey> By what other characters say about the one character, what they see when they look at him/her, how others react to the character.
<Casey> What they say about the character (gossip)
<Sea Witch> Yeah, If he's wild eyed and swinging an ax then it's a good guess he ain't too friendly
<Casey> This technique can be especially useful when dealing with absentee characters--influencing reader opinion before the guy or gal ever shows up.
<Casey> Either for or against.
<Wwombat> Especially true of a powerful authority figure who can impact the plot
<Casey> It's especially useful with powerful characters, making them larger than life.
<Casey> We're thinking along the same lines, Wwombat.
<Casey> More ways to convey significance upon a character?
<Wwombat> Have the hero hide from him -- evasive action
<Wwombat> 'cos he's wielding that anx axe
<Casey> Yep. Especially good for evil characters.
<Sea Witch> Chop your head off!
<crip> here Casey let us demonstrate on Aya. just put his head in this vice.
<Wwombat> Chickens run about after their heads are chopped off. I don't know about wombats. I never tried
<Sea Witch> CRUNNNNNNNNNNNNCH
<Casey> I pushed him off a cliff just for you, Crip!
<crip> yeah but that wasn't real.
<kissfan> OUCH (hope he bounces)
<Casey> I need him around a bit longer. Give him a break.
<Sea Witch> Right back into the plot Kathy
<Wwombat> bump bump bomp
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> How about frequency of appearance?
<Wwombat> Or collecting flowers for non-evil ones
<Sea Witch> Does it count if he's caught in a revolving door?
<Wwombat> Only in a circular story
<Casey> If a character keeps showing up all over the place, the reader gets the idea he's probably someone to keep an eye on.
<Casey> That gets repetitive, Witchie.
<Wwombat> The mail man done it
<Casey> Your "collecting flowers for non-evil ones" starts getting into quirks, which draw attention to characters, Richard.
<Wwombat> If the character keeps turning up, then the story is using more words to describe him/her
<Wwombat> So a more general rule could be the amount of story time devoted to a character
<Casey> Yep.
<Casey> And that can be relative. 100 words of a 1000 word story is 10%--a large amount. 100 words in 120,000 word novel is almost overlooked.
<Wwombat> As to quirks, giving them to minor characters makes them quickly more interesting
<Casey> Yes. And quirks, like many other writing techniques, should not be overdone.
<Sea Witch> I'm with you on that last one Wwombat. It's the quickest way I know to promote a minor character
<crip> define quirks though and how much is too much
<Casey> frequently picking your nose is a quirk.
<kissfan> a twitching left eye?
<kissfan> when nervous that is
<Casey> Drumming fingers on a desk anytime you have to wait is a quirk.
<Sea Witch> You don't want someone scratching his nose more than a couple of times lest the reader thinks the character has something horribly catching
<Wwombat> Protagonists have to be mostly sane else the reader can't follow or anticipate their actions or participate in their fears
<crip> ok
<Sea Witch> But most people do it
<kissfan> running fingers through hair
<Wwombat> Only for bald men
<Sea Witch> That's definitely a nervous or self-conscious gesture
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> You don't want every character you use to have some odd quirk, otherwise it looks like a cheap trick of the writer.
<Wwombat> Wearing clashing clothes: like a jock strap with a trilby
<Casey> LOL! Thank you for that one, Richard. he he he
<Wwombat> But I suppose it all depends on the colour of the trilby
<kissfan> LOL
<Sea Witch> You sound very knowledgable about things like that Wwombat.....
<Wwombat> I've studied hats
<Sea Witch> I've studied......the other thing
<Sea Witch> Falsies are something of a let down don't you think?
<Wwombat> I thought they were supposed to be up lifting
<Casey> Character appearances can also be infrequent if every time they show up, something major or significant happens.
<Sea Witch> I love the way Casey presses on. Relentlessly. You gotta hand it to her. Teaching in the face of absurdity
<Wwombat> How did you know my face was ....
<Sea Witch> Yeah, bad guys have a tendency to cause choas and don't need to appear too often
<Goshwin> Plowing on through spit balls and cat calls
<Casey> (That doesn't mean I'm not laughing. But we could get seriously sidetracked and not learn much.)
<Sea Witch> Meowwwww
<crip> no you don't SW
<crip> he he he
<Wwombat> So every time a witch appears, it rains
<Casey> Here, every time a witch appears, there's mayhem and murder.
<Sea Witch> Not in this continuum Oz-buddy
<Wwombat> I thought it was just coincidence !!!!
<Casey> Also, passive characters will seem much less important than active characters.
<Goshwin> And people start turning into toads (humm, I have a case of the munchies, time for a nice fat fly)
<Sea Witch> Rivettttt
<Wwombat> Sorry, not a rain witch. Do you have visions, as a see witch?
<crip> even those that are drug induced?
<Sea Witch> Yeah, I look around to see which marsupial is gonna get made into toast
<Casey> It depends upon what those characters do in their drugged state.
<crip> ah
<Wwombat> Get fried, apparently. Excuse the smell of roasting fur
<Sea Witch> Ewwwwww
<kissfan> yeck hate the smell of roasted fur
<Casey> If they lay around and watch the pretty halos around the light bulb, that isn't too interesting. If they go out and dismember fellow characters then cook dinner, that's much more interesting.
<Wwombat> So passive drugged characters are minor ? i.e. below the age of consent
<kissfan> Ya then you wonder what is in the stew
<Wwombat> Depends what they cook and witch hat they wear
<Casey> Exactly.
<Casey> And whether the color clashes with their g-string.
<Goshwin> I love the smell of burnt fur in the morning... It smells... Like victory..
<Sea Witch> LOL Gosh
<Sea Witch> Tarq couldn't have put it better
<Casey> Finally, sympathy raises the stature of a character.
<Wwombat> Oh, I didn't realize this was a g-string class
<Sea Witch> Which is why people abuse their characters
<Casey> (Reader sympathy for the character, not character having sympathy for other characters)
<Wwombat> like a minor character trying to rescue an animal in a fire. Quickly becomes the centre of attention
<Sea Witch> Or getting chucked off a cliff
<Wwombat> Only a short time to get sympathetic before ... bump
<Casey> But when that happens, readers then expect that minor character to become significant in the story--or something good to happen to him in the end.
<crip> they do?
<Sea Witch> You meant SPLAT, Richard. People are nothing but bags of funny coloured water
<Wwombat> Can't he be a diversion while the baddy sets up the next catastophe ?
<Casey> Yes, he can be. But there is still some expectation of resolution of that subplot.
<Sea Witch> Unless it's the beginning of a murder mystery in which case.....tough cookies
<Wwombat> Won't the tough cookies get soggy in those bags of water ?
<Sea Witch> Important to the plot but no longer around except in conversation
<Sea Witch> Don't you dunk biccies down under?
<Wwombat> Casey has a good point. The reader expects all threads of the story to be resolved.
<Goshwin> Blink Blink.... wow there was nothing then I was floating and then this light... It was red light and all these guys with pitchforks and..
<Sea Witch> Takes big wooden spoon and gives pot a huge stir
<Wwombat> Getting modest SW?
<Sea Witch> Mmmmmppphhhh
<Wwombat> Can we mess up again now?
<Sea Witch> Er.....can I talk now?
<Casey> Back to shennanigans and such again.
<Casey> yes, SW
<Sea Witch> Never been there. What's it like at this time of year
<Casey> Okay, we've covered all the ways I know about for making characters important.
<kissfan> Oh pooh and I was just getting started
<Wwombat> Casey, to summarise, if a character is too quirky and takes up too much story time, they can't be minor. Like Witchy
<Casey> Now, how do we control minor characters, so they don't create subplots we don't want to mess with?
<Casey> Exactly, Wwombat.
<Wwombat> Forget them altogether. Lock them out
<Goshwin> Brain implants?
<Casey> Witchie is definitely one of our larger than life characters.
<Sea Witch> Kill 'em. Kill 'em all. Mwah hah hah hah
<Casey> You DO need minor characters in most stories.
<Casey> (Live minor characters)
<crip> I'm with SW on this one
<Wwombat> Just so Witchie can kill them ?
<Casey> They're like the crowd in the department store. If they weren't there, we're either talking after closing hours, or unrealistic.
<kissfan> ya the main characters need someone to interact with
<Sea Witch> Well I gotta do something to earn my serene outlook on life.
<Casey> witchie kills an awful lot of characters.
<Casey> Be glad she's not writing about you.
<Sea Witch> Someone p*sses me off in real life I do them in. Literary style
<Casey> Exactly, Kathy. And people to talk about the main character and make him/her more important than s/he would be otherwise.
<kissfan> exactly
<Goshwin> (eyes SW with suspicion)
<Sea Witch> Minor characters, when written properly, can add richness to a plot.
<Wwombat> So minor characters are utilitarian
<Casey> Okay, on to minor characters. What makes them minor?
<Wwombat> Age ?
<Wwombat> Size ?
<kissfan> smaller parts in the story?
<Casey> 10 year olds can be protagonists.
<Wwombat> The story is not about them
<Casey> Yes, Kathy.
<crip> yeah but we can't kill them
<Casey> There's no one Witchie can't kill.
<Sea Witch> BIG GRIN
<crip> true
<Wwombat> I'm still hiding
<Casey> and kill well, I should add.
<Wwombat> Why do you think I came down under ?
<Sea Witch> Anyone seen that pesky marsupial?
<Casey> Nope!
<Casey> He was supposed to be here, but, darn, I just don't know what happened to him.
<Sea Witch> LOL Casey
<Casey> (Protection fee, Richard, to be mailed to . . .)
<Wwombat> Well worth every hargatal
<Sea Witch> ROFL
<Casey> Richard mentioned earlier "stereotyping" as one way of making minor characters work without drawing attention to themselves.
<Casey> They become instantly "typed" without a lot of work and words.
<crip> but is there such a thing as true stereotyping anymore with so much being written?
<Sea Witch> As opposed to stereo-CDing
<Wwombat> Yea. If you want a Cheer Leader, everyone knows what they look like
<Wwombat> And do
<Casey> With the team, after hours . . .
<Casey> Yes, Crip.
<Goshwin> fur sure fur sure
<Wwombat> But then they would be the protagonist
<Sea Witch> Problem with stereotypes is they can be so cliché
<Casey> that's when we get into grades of minor characters.
<Casey> Secondary characters are not protagonists, but not disappearing minor characters, either.
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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Mar 26 00:00:48 2000

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<crip> uh oh
<Casey> Boy, when you when off, our chat room got nuked.
<crip> dang blasted icq!!!
<Goshwin> we are reborn
<Casey> Suddenly everyone was gone and I had to shut down and come back online.
<Wwombat> Keep your smells -- I mean spells away from me
<Sea Witch> Hocus pocus diplodocus. You're a frog Wwombat
<Goshwin> (here have a fly)
<Sea Witch> Twiddling fingers at marsupial....."You are in my power!"
<Wwombat> Croak Croak
<Sea Witch> Hey it worked!
<Casey> A hairy green frog. How interesting.
<Wwombat> A Hairy Green Frog that BURROWS !!
<Casey> Lots of frogs burrow.
<Sea Witch> And eats lollipops
<crip> and smokes cigars
<Sea Witch> And anything else it can get its icky tongue wrapped around
<Wwombat> Lots of frogs eat lollipops. Now, for my next metamorphosis -- Who is going to kiss me ?
<Casey> We were discussing levels of minor characters before we blew up.
<kissfan> good change of subject HEHEE
<Sea Witch> Sorry Wwombat. My toad kissing days are long behind me.
<Sea Witch> Evil cackle
<Casey> Puts on wax lips. Kisses Richard.
<Casey> Throws wax lips in trash can, wipes hand that touched them.
<Casey> Waiting for metamorphosis.
<Sea Witch> LOL
<Casey> Oh no!
<Sea Witch> This one's change into an outrageous panto dame
<crip> thank goodness those were wax, we don't wish harm on poor wwombat
<Sea Witch> Oh bugger
<Sea Witch> Wwombat has gone burrowing
<kissfan> guess you shouldn't have kissed him (even with wax lips) HEHEE
<Sea Witch> heh heh
<kissfan> Richard drop out some can't see you
<Casey> Tell him I am impressed with his metamorphosis. Now, get back here!
<crip> AS IF!
<Sea Witch> <g>
<Sea Witch> Perhaps he got squished by a boomer
<Goshwin> Boomer?
<Sea Witch> 'roo
<Sea Witch> There's some big buggers hoping around the outback
<Wwombat> Hi again
<Wwombat> It all went funny when I said I wanted to be kissed !!!!
<Wwombat> Is there a SEX monitor on this session ?
<Casey> No, Richard.
<Sea Witch> Your PC probably went into meltdown Wwombat. It was expecting a handsome prince and got a panto dame
<Wwombat> Them's the breaks
<Casey> Hey, I was impressed with his metamorphism from hairy frog to nonexistent being.
<kissfan> LOL
<Wwombat> Zach, will you kiss me. Witchie will explain why
<Sea Witch> Yeah....maybe too much eye of newt. What do you think?
<Zach> Er, wow, on the first date?
<Casey> *Digs wax lips out of trash can, passes them to Zach*
<Sea Witch> Used wax lips? Ewwwww
<Zach> Thanks, Casey.
<Wwombat> Tastes just like lollipop
<Casey> He probably has a sink! He can wash 'em off.
<Casey> Once upon a time there was a topic. Secondary characters vs. minor characters.
<Wwombat> Umphh AAaargg Hey, I'm a marsuple again. Just a minor character
<Wwombat> Secondary characters impact the plot, minor chars are background
<Sea Witch> There's nothing minor about that waistline Wwombat. Way too many lollipops
<Casey> Yes, Richard.
<Wwombat> I know, I keep on having to widen the burrow.
<Casey> Secondary characters can be used as foils to protags, too. they don't necessarily have to be involved in their own subplots.
<Wwombat> Minor characters could help with that, secondary characters would cause a cave in
<Sea Witch> Unless your Davis Eddings of course
<Sea Witch> That man could subplot a hole in a wall
<Casey> LOL! True, Witchie. There isn't such a thing as a minor character there. Well, except for all the peons he kills off.
<Sea Witch> He ought to try trimming a few major characters too
<Casey> In the beginning of a story, all characters are equal, only because a reader doesn't know anything about them.
<Casey> Secondary characters are likely to play more than one passing part.
<Sea Witch> Or one significant part
<Zach> Casey, a comment on your observation above (in the beginning, all characters are equal): don't you think it's the writer's duty to make a quick distinction between them?
<Casey> Absolutely, Zach.
<Zach> K, just wondering.
<Casey> And we've already addressed a dozen ways of increasing a character's importance quickly.
<Casey> Or even gradually.
<Zach> Yeah, I missed all that, so don't want to jump in and say dumb things.
<Sea Witch> Why not? Everyone else has. <g>
<Zach> heh heh
<Casey> There are no dumb comments here.
<Sea Witch> Just lame ones
<Zach> Perhaps I should ease in and say dumb things
<Casey> Only remarks that spew drinks from noses.
<Sea Witch> heh heh
<Casey> Do, Zach. Anytime.
<kissfan> HEHEE *wipes coffee from screen*
<Zach> One thing that everyone should keep in mind is that a main character will, by definition, figure in most of the scenes of a book.
<Zach> It's especially true of the motion picture, which is another form of storytelling of course.
<Sea Witch> Oh bugger! Does that mean I have to revise again?
<Casey> No, Witchie!
<Sea Witch> Phew!
<Zach> Maybe. If your main guy/gal is offstage too much, bring 'em out more.
<Casey> In Lord of the Rings, Saurman (Butchered spelling) is significant throughout the book but puts in an appearance twice?
<crip> saruman
<Sea Witch> Yeah, grouchy old git doesn't deserve another scene
<crip> but he was a driving force readers were forced to wonder about
<Zach> It's a neat trick to be able to have a major character offstage and still have them be a major. Takes supreme writing skill.
<Casey> Hey, I had all the correct letters, just rearranged. Thanks, Crip.
<Zach> But you'll always find them referred to--often and with great import.
<Sea Witch> LOTR is one book that could go a judicial edit
<crip> I think I spelled it wrong too casey
<crip> just wait till the movie comes out this summer SW
<Sea Witch> No you didn't crip
<Sea Witch> I don't fancy some of the characters they've chosen.
<Wwombat> Just because I'm a poor marsuple again
<Sea Witch> Yeah. Hairy green frogs are much more interesting
<Casey> At least we got through how to develop a strong focal-point character. Pretty much, if you reverse all those points, you get fleeting characters you can use and let vanish without much reader regret.
<Wwombat> So are panto dames
<Sea Witch> This is true
<Wwombat> Casey, I came in the middle of that
<Casey> Three ways of creating instant characterizations for minor characters are:
<Casey> eccentricity, exaggeration of a trait, and obsession.
<Casey> (obsessive personality)
<Sea Witch> I find that some of my characters undergo drastic changes. Cettay began life as a right creep for instance
<Sea Witch> He was such a bastard even I was shocked
<crip> how do you define main and minor if they both act like that? time in the story?
<Casey> In addition to straight-forward stereotyping, that is.
<Zach> To expand on what Casey's saying, I think it's important to give your minor character some unusual trait to make them memorable in few words. From there, you just don't develop them like the more important characters.
<Sea Witch> Or physical feature. Broken nose for instance
<Casey> How much time spent in action is a great defining measure.
<Zach> They can't be cardboard cutouts, but they shouldn't become show-stealers--if they do, then they are demanding more time and you should give it to them.
<Casey> If a single character is reappearing with frequency, it's likely they're a secondary character.
<Casey> Yes, SW. that can fall under exaggeration.
<Zach> What's a good cutoff point?
<Sea Witch> The neck
<Casey> LOL!
<Zach> Headless wonder.
<Wwombat> That all makes good sense
<Sea Witch> grin
<Wwombat> How can she grin without a head ?
<Casey> Each character should have a role to fulfill. When their work is done, they should be left to retirement.
<Zach> Look down by your feet, wwombat.
<Sea Witch> My face isn't the only thing that has cheeks
<Goshwin> (and she plows on through all this)
<Zach> Good point, Casey.
<Zach> When they're done, they're done.
<Casey> Another point: anytime a character is used as the POV character (as in multiple viewpoints) their significance in the story immediately increases.
<Zach> And you should be prepared to treat them on at least secondary status, right?
<Casey> There are also some variables out of any writer's control.
<Wwombat> So don't use a peon as a POV just before he gets his head cut off ?
<Casey> right, Zach.
<Sea Witch> LOL Wwombat
<Casey> do that, Richard, only if there's no other way to get in a particular bit of info that is that important.
<Goshwin> A pov from the floor?
<Zach> If he describes his own head falling from that point of view, then why not?
<Casey> It effectively ends that character's role in the story by whacking off his head, so you don't fear him taking over.
<Wwombat> Tell that to Witchie
<crip> unless he's the headless horseman
<kissfan> ok then a stalker would be a secondary character if he is after the lead character right
<Sea Witch> What was that? Looks up from sharpening axe
<Casey> Uncontrollable variables: A reader connecting a character to someone they know and hating or loving him as a result.
<kissfan> or would he be another main character
<Goshwin> Well in futurerama ther are lot oh talking heads
<Wwombat> No cruelty to animals allowed here
<Casey> right, Kathy
<kissfan> ok cool I was right then.
<crip> yeah, gosh, we need Nixon head
<Goshwin> he hehe (yah crip got the reff)
<Sea Witch> Why do you want Nixon's toilet Crip?
<Casey> Too many characters just like your protag in other novels.
<Wwombat> Casey, your point on uncontrollable variables. How can you possibly avoid them ?
<Casey> You can't, Richard. That's why they're uncontrollable.
<Wwombat> If you make the character less vivid, they are less likely to want to connect it up ?
<Casey> Controlled variables:
<Casey> ordinariness vs. strangeness.
<Casey> Amount of time devoted to any one character.
<Casey> The character's potential for making meaningful choices
<Casey> Other characters' focus on that character.
<Casey> character's frequency of appearance
<Casey> character's degree of involvement in the action
<Casey> Reader's sympathy for the character
<Casey> narration from the character's POV
<Casey> And with that, my knowledge or understanding expires.
<Wwombat> Wow Impressive. A great summary
<Casey> Any questions or additions or debates?
<Casey> Thanks, Richard.
<Goshwin> Nope
<Wwombat> Add to frequency, length of story time
<Casey> Good one, Richard.
<Casey> The length of any story impacts elements within that story.
<Casey> How much leeway you have to address issues, develop characterizations, etc.
<Wwombat> Also degree of 'unusualness' or remember-ability of the character
<Casey> that goes along with ordinariness vs. strangeness.
<Wwombat> An author takes trouble to make an important character memorable
<Casey> Especially in character-driven stories, the characterization has to be in-depth.
<Wwombat> Yes, I agree. Sometimes, don't even bother to give a character a name
<Casey> Exactly. That's another clue that a character is very minor, when they don't even have a name.
<kissfan> like the person behind a sewing machine in a factory
<Goshwin> facless peons
<Wwombat> Sitting on a bomb
<kissfan> or hear the machine and by that you know that the person is there
<Wwombat> Even if the sewing machine in embriodering with a spelling mistake
<Casey> If you consider the things or people that catch your eye in real-life, and those that don't, that gives you some direction in how to handle fictional situations.
<Wwombat> Interesting. Have you noticed how many real life things we ignore; BUT any we examine in detail become fascinating. They are ALL worth our attention
<kissfan> I was writing something last week that sounded so believable that my husband thought that it had taken place HEHEE
<Casey> Yep. Sometimes it's interesting to deliberately pay attention to those people in a mall who don't catch your attention when you glance around, and figure out by they don't. What makes them too ordinary to notice in a crowd?
<Wwombat> Your hubby doesn't know you very well ?
<kissfan> LOL I know that is because he doesn't want to (I think)
<Casey> Good, Kathy (about the realism)
<Wwombat> But well done anyway. If you can con him with your writing, think of all the other things you can get away with .....
<kissfan> HEHEE I know
<Casey> I took a picture of Harold and Tess in bed this morning. He had his arm around her.
<crip> yuck
<Casey> she had her head on his side. they were so cute.
<Wwombat> Sounds like a blackmail pic to me
<crip> not that Casey would use blackmail!!!!!
<Casey> Tess is my labrador retreiver.
<Casey> *blink blink blink* Not me!
<crip> LIAR!
<Casey> Smiles sweetly. Bats eyes. Looks very innocent.
<Wwombat> Does that take a lot of make up ?
<Casey> Richard!!!
<crip> oodles
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> Crip, you ever want to see Aya's blood?
<Wwombat> So Tess is a secondary character
<Casey> Or another chapter?
<crip> don't you blackmail me, I can stop writing altogether if you like
<Casey> Not around here! Tess runs the household.
<kissfan> LOL sounds like my cat
<crip> she's the runaway character
<Wwombat> Or my daughter
<Casey> Let me in. Let me out. Make my supper. Pay attention to me. Scratch my belly.
<crip> tell harold to stop whining sheesh
<Casey> LOL!
<crip> oh you meant Tess nevermind
<Wwombat> Does Harold like his belly scratched too ?
<Casey> Absolutely.
<Russ> So, what is the difference between a secondary character and an extra? (See, I do read your emails)
<Casey> The amount of time they spend doing something--anything.
<Russ> When does an extra move into the secondary character level?
<Casey> (I'm impressed that you read my emails.)
<Russ> (I'm impressed I can read)
<Casey> When he won't go away and stay gone.
<Casey> (I wasn't going to mention that. I was trying to be nice.)
<Russ> I'm counting on y'all to get me going again. I'm in a slump. I hate (yes hate) my current chapter
<crip> Russ, listen very carefully, YOU CAN'T LET HER WIN!!!!!
<Casey> Can we look at it and hate it with you? And tell you why?
<crip> er uh i mean uh i know you have it in you
<Russ> Hey, you took the challenge too, Mister. What about you ? <g>
<Casey> (Now we get the excuse-mister!)
<crip> blinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblinkblink
<Russ> I know why I hate it. I stink at narrative. when I have a character alone, I struggle until I can pull in someone for him to interact with.
<Casey> Hey, Russ!!! I've finally figured out the stupid chapter I'm on and am making some progress.
<Russ> But if you want to see it, sure. That's great, Casey!
<Casey> Hey, that's always the tough part.
<Casey> I'd love to see it.
<Russ> Should I post it in chat?
<Casey> You can. That would be fun.
<Russ> Just a sec...
<Casey> It's how many paragraphs long?
<Casey> (2 last time I heard)
<Russ> about seven
<kissfan> maybe you don't know your character well enough
<Casey> Wow!
<Russ> Could be, Kathy. but it's my protag, so I hope not
<Casey> When I'm writing pure narrative, I have to invent a purpose for that narrative. Then I have a reason for writing it, other than simple transition.
<Casey> Makes it more tolerable to write.
<Russ> Here ya go.
<Russ> It took Jaran a few moments to realize he no longer existed in a world of visions. He opened his eyes to
<Russ> strangeness. He didn't recognize where he was except to understand it to be a bedchamber of some sort.
<Russ> The shutters on the window above the bed he lay in were thrown open to the night sky, letting in a breeze
<Russ> tinged with the scent of open sewers, horses, and a body of water. Jaran lifted his head to look around the
<Russ> room and collapsed under a wave of dizziness. He obviously wouldn't be getting up any time soon. He
<Russ> puzzled over where he was. The last he remembered, he and Rehlena were in the forest. Now here he lay in
<Russ> a strange room without a soul about. What had happened? He heard Rehlena screaming, he remembered
<Russ> that. He remembered fighting...something. Some beast. And he'd been hurt. Hurt bad. He remembered
<Russ> the pain.
<Russ> struggled with his memory. Nothing else came to him. Where was he? Out the open
<Russ> window, one of the moons came out from behind a cloud, casting the room in pale light. Without raising his
<Russ> head, he scanned as much of the room as possible in the dim light. Across from him, at the foot of the bed,
<Russ> stood a pine wardrobe against a white plastered wall. A door of some dark wood was to the right of the
<Russ> wardrobe. He tried turning his head to take in more of the room and achieved nothing more than a headache
<Russ> so intense he saw spots dance in his vision. He lay there for what seemed like hours with his eyes closed,
<Russ> breathing shallowly, until his head stopped throbbing. Gradually the pain became no more than a dull ache
<Russ> and he opened his eyes.
<Russ> om remained the same as he remembered it, or rather, didn't remember it. He thought back
<Russ> again, searching his memory for some clue as to where he was. A blackness like a stormcloud pervaded his
<Russ> memory, fogging everything from where he had began to fight the beast until he awoke here the first time.
<Russ> He furrowed his brow, straining against the fog, attempting to grasp a hold of something, anything. But like
<Russ> the cloud it resembled, he found it insubstantial to his efforts. Except he couldn't remember a thing from the
<Russ> period. All his striving achieved was a return of his headache and a weariness that seeped out of his bones.
<Russ> Exhausted, he slipped back into unconsciousness.
<Russ> woke next to sunlight streaming through the still open window. His headache had spread to
<Russ> his entire body. His joints ached and his limbs felt leaden. One thing besides the pain overwhelmed him.
<Russ> Hunger. He had no idea when he had last eaten, but his stomache grumbled and growled. He needed food.
<Russ> tossed back the quilt. Where were his clothes? He hoped they were in the wardrobe, not that
<Russ> he could get them the way he felt. His stomache gave another protesting rumble. He had to try something.
<Russ> He gritted his teeth and started his leg toward the edge of the mattress. The effort just to get one foot on
<Russ> the floor drained him. How could he ever get out of bed? Let
<Russ> Sorry, only five pp
<Casey> One thing I notice immediately, it's written by the author, not by Jaran.
<Casey> Omniscient voice.
<kissfan> Yes me too
<kissfan> see through the character's eyes not yours
<Russ> Good point.
<Casey> Omniscient voice has always been difficult for me to write. It's more fun to be your character and take in information, process it, and suffer.
<Russ> Can you point out where you see omni?
<Russ> BRB...type slowly
<Goshwin> O
<Goshwin> K
<Goshwin> I
<Goshwin> S
<Goshwin>
<Goshwin> T
<Goshwin> H
<Goshwin> I
<Goshwin> S
<Goshwin>
<Goshwin> S
<Goshwin> L
<Goshwin> O
<Goshwin> W
<Goshwin>
<Goshwin> E
<Goshwin> N
<Casey> Gosh, go stand in the trash can!
<Russ> Yes!
<Goshwin> U
<Goshwin> he he he he
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> Out the open
<Casey> <Russ> window, one of the moons came out from behind a cloud, casting the room in pale light.
<Russ> Hokay. How to rewrite in 3rd limited?
<Russ> Nope, Crip. but he lost you too
<Casey> that didn't pick up the whole sentence. It's not a blatant omniscence like we're accustomed to thinking about, but the words you're using seem to come between Jaran and the reader.
<Goshwin> He watched the moon ?
<Casey> His head is lying on the pillow.
<Casey> I lost him, too.
<Casey> For good!
<Casey> Just lost Kathy, too.
<Russ> I still have Kathy
<Casey> (Haven't we done this once tonight?)
<Goshwin> Uhoh ICQ is at it again
<Casey> Let me save the buffer just in case.
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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Mar 26 01:56:34 2000

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<Russ> Any other comments on the bit of putridness I infected y'all with?
<Casey> Remember how connected Jaran was to the visions in his last chapter, Russ?
<Russ> Yeah. I'm not sure what I'm doing different. If I knew, I wouldn't be doing it
<Casey> He was the visions and they were him.
<Casey> Okay, his head is lying on the pillow. What he would see is probably not the moon coming out from behind the clouds (unless the window is on the wall at his feet and he can stare through it)
<Casey> what he's more likely to be aware of is a sudden pale light through the window that illuminates the room in grayed shadows.
<kissfan> unless he was seeing it in a mirror
<Russ> I'll go reread ch 7. next to him. window. English is first language. ugh.
<Casey> My sense from Rehlena's chapter is that's not where the window was.
<Russ> Hmmmm, will check on that
<Casey> You have: The shutters on the window above the bed where he lay. Is that at his head?
<Casey> that's more where I thought they were in Chpt. 7-- and slightly to one side.
<Russ> to his side. Better make that clearer
<Casey> He had no idea when he had last eaten, but his stomach grumbled and growled. He needed food.
<Casey> Now I can't read that.
<Russ> Yup. That stinks.
<Russ> Any comments, gosh?
<Casey> But most of your sentences begin with "He." That tendency alone separates jaran from his thoughts.
<kissfan> I thought I noticed that Russ was doing what I have a tendency of doing
<Casey> When was the last time he'd eaten? makes the thought Jaran's alone, without author intrusion.
<Casey> We all have a tendency to do that in a draft! Not just Russ. Trust me.
<kissfan> LOL I do it all the time. I am trying to stop doing it but it is hard not to
<Casey> It is very hard not to. I catch myself doing it too when I'm getting sloppy or tired.
<Russ> I think I may need to scrap the entire pile and start over. I can't even bring myself to write any more on it right now.
<Goshwin> Scrap how much?
<Russ> I had the entire night last night to myself and didn't even try to write. Just this chapter, Gosh
<Goshwin> Change the voice (I would agree) ...
<Casey> I had to scrap a lot of my current chapter. (Most of it.) Then I made a list of what needed to be included. Then I started getting in character thoughts and concerns (another list). That finally got me through my slump.
<Russ> I may actually try to write the beginning of this chapter longhand <GASP>
<Goshwin> he he he... I'm having a crit slump (till I saw Casey's stuff) *(I love a small crit)
<Russ> Sometimes that helps me get going again.
<Casey> Taking a break from writing helps me, too. I occasionally need the stimulation of real-life.
<Russ> I have enough stimulation. Writing is the break for me
<Casey> SW's chapter put my paltry effort to shame! She writes soooo well.
<Russ> It was very good. Too many characters, but other than that...
<Casey> then for you, it may be difficult to switch into hard focus. You do have lots of stimualtion
<Russ> Focus? What is "Focus"?
<Casey> Ah-ha!
<kissfan> LOL I am having that trouble too. Can't focus
<Russ> Write a word, play a game of solitaire, write another word, check email, etc. Is that focus?
<Casey> It usually takes me 15 minutes to achieve the necessary focus to begin writing (uninterrupted minutes)
<Casey> No, that's not, Russ.
<Russ> Drat, Casey.
<Casey> Games on computers are my downfall, too.
<kissfan> LOL write a word chase 5 year old out of bathroom. write another word change movies for the kid write another. . .
<Goshwin> *squeel of feedback* Testing one to three (Tap tap tap *Squeeel*
<Casey> We all have a lot of distractions in life.
<Casey> Another trick that used to work for me, is to write at the same time every day. (I can't achieve that luxury anymore.)
<Russ> Same time? only if I forgo sleep altogether. I need my four hours, though
<Casey> That's not the story I usually get!
<Russ> Guess I'll just have to quit my job.
<Goshwin> I wish I didn't need sleep....
<Casey> You mean that invincible Russ actually has weaknesses of the flesh?
<Russ> Only four. That's all I need.
<kissfan> Ya me too if I didn't need sleep I would have time for everything
<Casey> whoa! My whole world is crashing about me.
<Goshwin> then I would really be able to do things... But if we all could do that, then life would expand and we still would have no time
<Casey> No, Kathy. You'd still have too much to do.
<Russ> Just imagine. fifteen hour workdays becoming the norm
<kissfan> What I hate is when I go to bed and start to relax, the ideas come
<Goshwin> Oh god yah
<Goshwin> the horror, the horror
<Casey> Have you learned how to write in the dark?
<Goshwin> with a flash light
<Russ> I just leave the light on all night
<kissfan> LOL yep
<Casey> Good.
<Goshwin> sort of like playing pup tent when I was a kid,, I throw a sheet over the mon and away I go
<kissfan> I put my head under the blankets and use a flashlight HEHEE
<Russ> I can hardly read my writing when I write in the light at a desk, let alone in the dark laying on my back
<Casey> The only thing that gets me is when Harold's taken the pen or pencil I keep by the pad of paper on the nightstand. Or it's fallen on the floor or into a shoe.
<kissfan> LOL ya that is why I keep several there that way at least I can find one
<kissfan> One of these days I will have a notebook pc that I can keep ready at all times HEHEE
<kissfan> that way I won't need a pen
<Casey> usually a few words or a phrase is enough to spark my recall in the morning. I usually don't have to write out paragraphs as I'm falling asleep.
<kissfan> ya just enough so the thought is there when you need it
<Casey> I still don't trust electronic recordings! I've lost too much stuff that I was composing on a computer. Once when Harold blew a fuse.
<kissfan> I lost 13 pages like that when the power went off (I forgot to save my work)
<Russ> I write much better on the computer. I type much better than I write longhand. And much faster. It takes me forever to write something out longhand
<Casey> I remember that, Kathy. How sickening.
<kissfan> ya that is why I need that notebook pc that way I can have it at my sister's place
<Russ> <Goshwin> Casey is a weener nyaaa nyaaaa
<Russ> Just thought I'd pass that on <g>
<Casey> LOL! Oooooo, maybe he looks better in cyberspace.
<kissfan> took longer for me to rewrite it than it had taken me the first time
<Russ> He's dropped out again
<Casey> Let's leave him there. <g>
<Russ> Meanie :P
<Goshwin> (puts on hat sunglasses and smoking a pipe "I have returned!" (promply trips and does a face plant)
<Russ> You and Patton ought to get together, Gosh
<kissfan> better take off the sunglasses before you break your neck
<Goshwin> DOHHH
<Russ> Anyone else having some difficulty on something we could help with?
<Russ> I think I know what I need to do with mine
<Casey> Put down the flame thrower, Russ.
<kissfan> ya nice and slowly russ
<Goshwin> (puts on a hat and sunglasses...)
<Russ> Too late. Already toasted my chapter. Thought I could leave it out for a while. (hehe)
<Goshwin> LOOK OUT HES GOT THE BOMB! (he must really hate that chapter)
<Russ> I do, I do.
<Casey> He's already admitted he hates the chapter.
<Casey> Now we can all hate the same chapter together. What camaraderie.
<Russ> Awww. Glad I could bring us all so close.
<Goshwin> A blue flash and a moment is frozen by the brilliant strob of detonation... the chapter is gone, a moment later, the rest of the chat follows
<Goshwin> GRIN
<Russ> Not to mention eastern Colorado
<Goshwin> All in the name of "Editing"
<kissfan> LOL isn't it always that way
<Casey> Is it weird that we spend so much time lamenting the fact we don't have time to write when instead of complaining, we could be writing?
<Russ> Too true, Casey
<Casey> But then, we could envision this as writing. Practice.
<kissfan> yep we could.
<Casey> I could make all of you complain originally and with perfect grammar.
<Russ> I think of any time I'm thinking about my wip ass writing time
<Casey> your wip ass?
<kissfan> LOL
<Russ> Don't tell heather I told you about that
<Casey> I promise. I couldn't tell her with a straight face.
<Russ> thanksssss
<Goshwin> wip ass, gooooollly wilber let us do sum wip ass written.. (whars me pig!)
<Russ> See what happens when I try to be serious, Casey?
<Goshwin> Seeeeweeeee
<kissfan> I have found an interesting way to get to know my main characters
<Casey> Russ, stay away from serious.
<Russ> Biblically, Kathy?
<Casey> How? Tell us!
<kissfan> LOL nope I let them write about me. that way I think like them
<Russ> That's an interesting idea, Kathy. I might just have to try it
<kissfan> One of them I have keeping a journal of her daily thoughts
<Casey> Cool! Kathy is now her characters' character.
<kissfan> LOL yep
<Casey> I wonder if they'll decapitate her?
<Russ> Brings up some interesting philosphical questions, don't it?
<kissfan> One gave me Prozac to stop the editor within for a while HEHEE
<Casey> Yeah. All those mean things you've ever done to your characters? well, it's time for revenge.
<kissfan> LOL yep
<Russ> BRB...need nicotine.
<kissfan> I like the journal idea it is working really well
<Casey> They work surprisingly well. I kept a journal for several years. I was frequently surprised by what came out.
<kissfan> it is a complete diary of my character's thoughts and what the character sees
<Casey> Tell me why you hate Aya, Crip. (Except for that one brief slip-up.)
<crip> he's just a hatable character
<crip> all knowing dorky big brother
<Russ> LOL, crip
<Casey> What makes him hateable? Because he's an authority figure?
<crip> not that Manerra is much better
<crip> ooops did i say that?
<Russ> (not that I hate him, Casey <g>)
<Casey> You can hate him, Russ.
<Russ> I don't hate anyone. except for the jerk who had his locker next to mine in high school
<Casey> Am I making the point that there are likeable and detestable traits (or at lease ignoble traits) in everyone?
<kissfan> there has to be to make them realistic
<Russ> That's what makes them believable.
<crip> yeah if all characters were perfect like me it would make for boring reading
<Casey> I want to see if at some point Crip changes his opinion about Aya.
<Russ> That's why I don't write autobiographically, Crip.
<Casey> Exactly, Crip. (sortta)
<shorty103> well, it's like one of the characters within my story, he's very controlling and just a regular son of gun, always wants control over everything
<Casey> Oh, gawd, the guys have joined forces!
<kissfan> LOL sounds like a fun one to do
<Casey> Aren't bad guys easier to write than good guys?
<kissfan> that's ok they can't be better than us women
<Russ> We must unite against the evil Casey!
<kissfan> always.
<crip> agreed, Russ. to the pitchforks and torches!!!!
<kissfan> better check guys you are outnumbered
<crip> yes but we're much taller
<kissfan> HEHEHE
<Russ> And we can run very fast.
<crip> yes indeed
<kissfan> really? how tall do you think I am?
<Casey> Good guys are like magical beings, they have to operate under a set of limitations.
<Russ> 4' 9"?
<kissfan> LOL wrong
<shorty103> Kathy, I think you're about 5'5"
<Casey> Russ's ego is showing.
<crip> 3'5"?
<kissfan> nope. I am almost 6 feet tall
<crip> Casey is about 2'7 I know this for fact
<Russ> I thought I had it carefully under my hat.
<kissfan> 5'9 to be exact
<Casey> Have you been talking to Harold again?! I mean, NO! That's not true!
<Russ> Still got you by seven inches
<shorty103> wow! than I'll be looking up at you Kathy, I'm 5'0"
<crip> all I heard was something resembling one of the lollipop kids was chasing down a dog down the street
<kissfan> LOL
<shorty103> very funny Kathy!
<Russ> Did the dog have a chisel and a piece of granite tied to its back?
<crip> I think so
<Casey> LOL!
<Casey> You mean she hasn't gotten there yet, Russ?
<Russ> Not yet. No wonder I can't write this @#$#@ chapter
<shorty103> Kathy, I didn't realize you were that tall, I'm a short compared to you! Mut and Jeff! If you know what I mean
<kissfan> LOL yep
<Casey> Rose, you're short compared to most people.
<Russ> You even make my wife look tall. (she'll be so happy)
<Casey> How tall is Heather?
<shorty103> yes, so if Kathy, if you come in the door downstairs, you will have to duck, 'cause you will knock you head off
<Russ> Can you think of a good way to describe a headache without saying headache?
<Casey> His head pounded.
<crip> casey wouldn't stop talking.
<Russ> More intense, Casey
<crip> oh you mean adjective like
<Russ> lol, Crip
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> When I've got a really awful headache, it affects my stomach. makes me nauseous.
<Casey> I can't have anyone touch the bed. I can't take the movement.
<crip> migraines?
<Casey> No. Sinus attack.
<Russ> Good. You must have a headache a lot for all the stuff you puke, er, type here
<crip> yuck, just as bad
<kissfan> yep a migrain I get them all the time. try feaverfew it really works
<Casey> Ha! No more helping Russ.
<Casey> Describe your headaches then, Kathy.
<kissfan> nausea, can't take light, can't take movement.
<Casey> There's too much congestion associated with my headache to be migraines.
<Casey> smells are terrible, too.
<kissfan> yep
<Casey> Sparks the urge to vomit.
<kissfan> forget eating food smells awful
<Russ> Never had a migraine, thank goodness
<crip> not the vomit discussion again, please god no!
<kissfan> be glad Russ they are terrible
<kissfan> forget standing up your head pounds even more
<shorty103> had to put a cold cloth over the eyes, which helped, but not much
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