CHAT ARCHIVE - 6-3-00, Dialogue

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Jun 04 00:12:08 2000

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<Casey> What is the purpose of dialogue in any story?
<Casey> Any guesses?
<shorty103> to show how people within the story are speaking
<kissfan> to bring live to your characters through their voice
<Casey> Yep and yep.
<LilRed> To move the plot forward.
<Casey> It breaks up descriptive passages--adds variety to the prose.
<kissfan> to add dimension to the story
<Casey> Yes, Chip. That's an important one.
<kissfan> LOL I just got to stop making all the characters sound the same
HEHEE
<shorty103> and I've got to let go of the cardboard one's
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> Another important point that Rose and Kathy touched on, is it helps
to eliminate descriptions of character by showing rather than telling.
<Casey> It reveals characterizations and adds realism to the speakers.
<shorty103> and depth
<Casey> What a character says and how he speaks conveys information about
that character's personality, emotions, attitudes, opinions, and desires.
<LilRed> It allows the reader to form an opinion instead of getting it
second hand from a narrator.
<kissfan> yes, making the story more interesting to the reader
<Casey> And readers are a distrustful lot. Just because the narrator says
something, doesn't mean its true.
<LilRed> Like eavesdropping on people.
<kissfan> LOL yep
<Casey> Yep, only more interesting, because all the boring pleasantries and
chitchat are omitted.
<LilRed> True.
<Casey> (Or, the bulk are omitted.)
<kissfan> and the ums and ahs
<Casey> Yes.
<LilRed> And the long silent pauses.
<Casey> Silence can be used quite effectively in dialogue passages, though.
<LilRed> I write in the ums and ahs.
<kissfan> LOL I sometimes do too. depending on where it is needed
<Casey> One of the most skilled uses of silences in dialogue that I've read
was done by our very own Zen in A Gathering of Rebels.
<shorty103> wow
<LilRed> Do you have a quote?
<Casey> Which brings up a point: How do you achieve voice inflection in
dialogue?
<Casey> Unfortunately, Chip, I haven't seen him lately to be able to get
permission to use a passage from Gath.
<LilRed> Well, poo.
<kissfan> oh darn!
<shorty103>

<Casey> The entire novel is still online somewhere, as far as I know.
<Casey> Probably accessible through zentao.com.
<Casey> Without using exclamation points, see if you can create a short
passage that conveys tonal inflection.
<Casey> (I can't emphasize enough the importance of NOT overusing
exclamation points.)
<Casey> Oh my god.
<shorty103> what is inflection?
<Casey> emotional emphasis.
<Casey> verbal emphasis.
<shorty103> okay, thanks
<shorty103> thinking
<Casey> You little snot.
<kissfan> How dare you
<Casey> (Not you, Rose! That's an example.)
<Casey> Good one, Kathy.
<shorty103> LOL, okay
<shorty103> If you can't get it right, don't do it
<Casey> Good, Rose. You've got the idea.
<LilRed> How many times do we have to go over this? Hmmm? How many?
Well....my dear...we are going to do it again...and again...and again. Until
you get it right.
<kissfan> leave me alone
<shorty103> LOL, it takes time, and more explanation than I care to ask for
<Casey> I like that one, Chip.
<Casey> The "my dear" takes on an almost sinister tone.
<LilRed> I was quoting my old drill sargeant.
<Casey> Nice guy!
<kissfan> Ya, right. Just what I wanted.
<shorty103> LOL
<Casey> You guys are good.
<shorty103> for the moment I am
<Casey> As a general rule, all dialogue should either advance the plot,
characterize the people speaking, or both.
<Casey> What is meant by "advancing the plot"?
<kissfan> letting the story flow forward
<kissfan> not just sit in one spot and spin for pages
<Casey> Right, Kathy.
<shorty103> to take a glimpse into that scene and set up the following one
<Casey> So how does an author do that: move the story forward?
<Casey> Right, Rose.
<kissfan> letting the characters tell their own story
<Casey> But that could meander if it's not controlled.
<kissfan> true
<Casey> How about, adding new information that will prove important later in
the story?
<kissfan> LOL I was about to say that one HEHEE
<Casey> Then we're thinking along the same line.
<LilRed> Let characters describe something that happened off camera so to
speak, or introduce or foreshadow another character or event.
<shorty103> in a sense foreshadow a little depending on the type of story
<Casey> It can also be as small as getting across a personal quirk that
becomes significant at a climax point.
<Casey> Yes, Rose.
<LilRed> They can quickly give background--when I was a boy--too.
<Casey> Yes, Chip. That's a much more interesting way to get in background
info than having the author tell it.
<Casey> Good dialogue also should have tension.
<shorty103> now that's when I begin to drag my heals on that one, tension
<Casey> "Tension" does not mean that every conversation your characters have
should be an argument, but merely that there should be a purpose to what
they say.
<Casey> For example, someone wants to tell another person they love them but
doesn't know how to go about doing so. That's creating tension.
<LilRed> That's where the ums and ahs come in.
<Casey> And also the opportunities to blow it.
<shorty103> so by showing what their voices sound like, will give the reader
an insight to the amount of tension within that scene
<Casey> By the words they use can and should do the same thing, Rose.
<shorty103> okay, understood
<Casey> It's possible to create a scene of dialogue without using the
dialogue tags at all and still convey hesitancy, anger, love, etc.
<shorty103> LOL, I have trouble with that one too, I put too many tags
<kissfan> yes. it is done by the way the character talks
<kissfan> special words that certain characters use
<Casey> Exactly, Kathy. The very words the character uses should convey
their mental state.
<Casey> You and I said the same thing!
<LilRed> Twinky fingers!
<kissfan> and their favorite sayings can tell who is speaking at that moment
<Casey> Exactly.
<Casey> Which brings up another point: that you should understand your
characters' emotional states when you approach their dialogue.
<Casey> John wakes up chipper and ready to take on the world, then
encounters Helen who just had a fight with her boss and is worried about
losing her job.
<shorty103> that is what a bio is for, but not all uses them either, but for
beginners it should be a must
<Casey> If you don't create a character bio, knowing your characters
thoroughly is important.
<shorty103> yes, I am learning that lesson very well
<Casey> If you know what they will do and what they won't do, and why, their
dialogue will reflect their morals.
<kissfan> that is why I build those character charts like the one that I
showed you at one point, Casey
<Casey> That was a comprehensive chart.
<kissfan> LOL Ya the IRS wants to know less HEHEE
<Casey> *L*
<Casey> Now, for a different tact. What makes for stilted (unnatural)
dialogue?
<LilRed> Proper grammar all the way round.
<Casey> Very true, Chip.
<LilRed> Don't pay attention to Grammar Checker in dialogue!
<Casey> Don't pay much attention to the grammar checker in prose either!
<kissfan> I never use a grammar checker.
<Casey> It doesn't like "had had"
<LilRed> nope, or contractions.
<kissfan> LOL ya I know
<Casey> Nor much of anything else.
<shorty103> I don't use grammar check either, and I don't have it so I can't
use it
<Casey> How about when characters explain themselves or what's happened,
especially when that info was mentioned earlier in narration?
<kissfan> LOL ya that BIG problem of repetition
<shorty103> my thoughts exactly, but didn't know how to spell that word
<Casey> Any repetition of information, except in the rare instance where
emphasis is needed/wanted, should not happen.
<Casey> That's okay, Rose. Kathy couldn't spell it either. :-)
<kissfan> and I find that a lot in my writing. Sometimes I forgot that I
had mentioned something earlier
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> LOL I caught it after I sent it
<Casey> In mine, too, Kathy. That's why I just spent two weeks combining 3
chapters because I repeated so much information.
<shorty103> or say the same thing two lines earlier but in a different way,
<Casey> The problem of repetition is a constant battle.
<Casey> Exactly, Rose.
<kissfan> LOL yep in some cases I take it out of the narrative and let the
character tell it
<Casey> It's usually more effective that way, Kathy.
<kissfan> LOL I am finding that out HEHEE
<Casey> Stating or discussing only the obvious is another way dialogue can
become boring.
<shorty103> I just don't know how to separate them, they run right into
each other with me, or there is more of one and not of the other
<Casey> Depth is the key to originality and holding reader interest.
<LilRed> Although sometimes it can be used for good effect--like humor if a
person repeats ad nauseum and disgusts the other characters.
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> Right, Chip. There's always an exception to any rule, especially in
writing.
<Casey> Everything depends upon what effect or reaction you want to achieve.
<Casey> That's why teaching creative writing is so challenging--and probably
why some people claim it can't be taught.
<shorty103> you just have to have the right students! hehehehehe
<Casey> Including no personal perspectives of the character herself can make
for boring (shallow) reading.
<Casey> Don't real-life arguments often bring in bits of history from left
field?
<shorty103> for me they have, and it slaps you silly when it happens
<Casey> Exactly, Rose. Imagine the same stun effect on a reader when you
do that in your own dialogue.
<LilRed> Bringing up old conflicts.
<Casey> That's why I focus not only on the subject of the argument, but also
on everything that affects this particular character--his whole experiential
history.
<shorty103> it's much like the saying " I told you so!" thing
<Casey> Yep.
<Casey> Now, onto what Kathy wanted when she requested this topic:
individualizing speech to a character.
<kissfan> LOL yep HEHEE
<Casey> What elements make an individual’s speech unique?
<shorty103> their quirks
<Casey> Which are verbal cliches unique to them.
<kissfan> rural accents but that is hard to write
<shorty103> like special saying that they say only
<kissfan> their favorite sayings or words
<Casey> One trick to regional accents is to pick a few words unique to the
region you're writing about. For example, "y'all" immediately identifies
Southerners.
<shorty103> like you Kathy, yours would be " Cool"
<kissfan> LOL yep
<shorty103> Oh ya
<kissfan> ayah for us mainers that live "downeast"
<Casey> You guys is a Northern phrase. As is green beans. (Southerners
call 'em snaps)
<shorty103> and some say hiya
<LilRed> The pace of their speech. Short clipped sentences with few
adjectives, or long drawn out sentences.
<kissfan> of course there is the way we speak phonics wouldn't work for
people around here
<kissfan> lOL like when we say mother it comes out mothah
<kissfan> or the name rodger comees out rodgah
<kissfan> we don't bother with the ending r we turn them into ah
<Casey> Just don't overdo the use of the apostrophy when creating a regional
dialect. That turns a lot of people off and is often hard to translate or
follow. You don't want to slow down your reader's reading.
<shorty103> see the people of New Brunswick have this nickname, we're
called Herring Chockers
<LilRed> Cool.
<Casey> Why, Rose?
<shorty103> I have no idea, it's like the people of Nova Scotia are called
Bluenosers
<Casey> You give each other funny names!
<kissfan> LOLya you do, Rose HEHEE
<LilRed> And then there's Newfies.
<Casey> And Aussies.
<kissfan> Well Rose in Maine you have to go up to go Down east
<shorty103> LOL, these two have been around for centuries, and yes, the
Newfies,
<LilRed> I'm a Hoosier.
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> and we know when we are talking from people that live there their
dialect is different
<Casey> We're a Commonwealth, so we're just plain ordinary Virginians. (Too
dull and snooty to come up with something original.)
<shorty103> yes, I hear the difference between Kim and Kathy, just on
curtain words
<kissfan> LOL I bet you can rose my accent is real strong now that I came
back to maine
<Casey> Okay, you know how to create a regional feel.
<shorty103> now, for my own, I can't hear it or pick it up, maybe only on
one or two words
<Casey> How about, educational level?
<LilRed> Then there are all the regional sayings and slang, terms .
<Casey> What words would indicate someone of very little formal education?
<kissfan> like tater pickers
<kissfan> lOL
<shorty103> well, the kids of today in school have a total different way of
saying things that when any of us were in school
<LilRed> I didn't know if I was afoot or on horseback, versus, Shoot! I
didn't know whether to shit or wind my watch.
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> I knew Chip would come up with something good!
<shorty103> it's like the British say, knock me up in the morning, which
means, anyone
<Casey> Ain't is a common stereotype.
<LilRed> The first I learned from a women from Maine and the second from a
Texan.
<Casey> Harold's got cool sayings, too. "You can't squeeze shit out of a
buffalo head nickle," is one of them.
<LilRed> I think that would go without out saying.
<shorty103> LOL, no one wants to guess at the meaning of this British one
<kissfan> and we say you can't get blood from a turnip
<Casey> If a frog could fly, he wouldn't bump his ass.
<LilRed> Which?
<LilRed> Lol!
<LilRed> Fine as frogshair.
<shorty103> LOL
<Casey> Which means I'll come to your door in the morning.
<Casey> (come a knocking)
<Casey> Ring me up means to telephone.
<shorty103> no, what time do you want up in the morning
<Casey> Ahhh.
<shorty103> LOL, sounds so funny doesn't it
<Casey> Huh? (instead of "what")
<kissfan> LOL ok leave it to the brits for that one
<Casey> Double negatives: don't never
<LilRed> Seawitch has very colorful expressions that tell you exactly where
she's from.
<kissfan> or worse, ain't never
<shorty103> Oh yes!
<Casey> Ain't never brings to mind an elderly person, too.
<LilRed> Do you know the Mason Dixon line is the division between ya'll and
youse guys?
<Casey> Dang!
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> I know some good elderly people sayings. (Dealing with Crip has
forced me to remember a lot I'd forgotten.)
<LilRed> Lol
<kissfan> LOL no doubt
<LilRed> Dag Nabbit
<shorty103> LOL
<Casey> What about young children? They have their own vocabulary, too.
<LilRed> Uh huh
<Casey> Mommy
<Casey> pee-pee
<Casey> No!
<kissfan> why
<LilRed> Doggie do doo doo.
<kissfan> ca-ca
<shorty103> Oh yes, and I wouldn't even know where to begin on that one,
more so the young teens, like 15 up to 19 or so, their in a world of their
own on the slang
<LilRed> Tahay inna win!
<Casey> What's ca-ca?
<LilRed> Polish for poo poo.
<kissfan> that is hw my nephew used to say poop
<Casey> Oh! I'm learning stuff, too.
<Casey> (You non-Southerners talk funny.)
<kissfan> now at 5, I am trying to get him out of saying "take a shit"
<shorty103> LOL, we do?
<Casey> Rose has another point. Generational slang.
<LilRed> At least he doesn't say pinch a loaf. That is so gross!
<shorty103> I don't know if you hear the twang in my voice or not,
<kissfan> LOL true
<Casey> Cool. Neat. belong to our generation.
<shorty103> Jim's favorite saying is, speak oh toothless one
<LilRed> Kids still say cool here.
<kissfan> lol and wicked cool
<LilRed> Groovy, baby! Shag-a-delic!
<Casey> They grew up hearing us speak that way, Chip.
<LilRed> Sorry, now it's kewl.
<kissfan> LOL yep it is!
<Casey> Well, they had to be different!
<kissfan> or try to be HEHEE
<shorty103> LOL
<Casey> Don't try to use a unique speech pattern for each character you
create.
<LilRed> Have you listened to some of the talk shows like Ricki Lake with
all these suburban white kid gangster wannabees?
<Casey> No, I haven't.
<Casey> I don't even know when Ricki Lake comes on.
<kissfan> LOL I have
<LilRed> It’s kind of disgusting
<shorty103> so have I, and I don't believe what comes out of their mouths
sometimes, wannabees or not
<kissfan> ya it is.
<Casey> Heavy on the profanity?
<Casey> And vulgarity?
<shorty103> very heavy!
<LilRed> Like they really know 'bout what's goin down in da hood, know what
I'm sayin.
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> they only hang out with their homies
<Casey> Unfortunately, I know what you mean.
<shorty103> that is why I don't watch them any more
<Casey> Even more interesting is to hang out in a nearly all-black high
school.
<Casey> That's an eye-opening experience.
<kissfan> LOL ya I can see where it would be
<shorty103> there aren't any around here, sorry, but that's not my cup of
tea either
<LilRed> Yeah. But it says something different when you have a character
imitating the speech of a group they don't belong to--like parents trying to
sound with it.
<Casey> Exactly, Chip. You get an instant impression of those parents--in
very few words.
<shorty103> in that way, yes I can see going there for about five minutes
and then leaving
<Casey> You don't get the full impact of the experience in 5 minutes' time,
Rose.
<shorty103> I know, but that type of place scares the **** out of me, even
around here with the young people
<LilRed> Do they have gangs in New Brunswick?
<shorty103> not that I know of
<kissfan> Now we are seeing more gangs around here
<LilRed> Anti-drug slogan for a fishing town--Smoke Herring-Not Pot.
<Casey> We have gangs in Richmond.
<kissfan> especially in the Portland area
<shorty103> I see a lot of teens hanging around together, but I don't see
the type of gangs that you see,
<LilRed> Who else would teens hang with?
<Casey> Not younger siblings, that's for sure!
<LilRed> Parents?
<shorty103> yes, the kids hang together, but as far as the type of violence
you see and hear about on the news, I've never heard any of that kind here
<kissfan> LOL Tell me about it! If I hear "get out of here, you little
asshole" One more time I think I am going to scream
<Casey> Who tells you that, Kathy?
<LilRed> There, that was good dialog. Typical of the age.
<Casey> Elder sister to younger brother?
<kissfan> no that is my 14 year old niece to my 5 year old nephew
<kissfan> lol yep
<LilRed> Followed by Mo-om! She said the a word!
<Casey> I figured that out by the quote alone.
<kissfan> lol or kathy
<Casey> As Chip said, it's very typical and very telling.
<kissfan> LOL yep.
<shorty103> yes, that spoke volumes with that one Kathy
<LilRed> Followed by, but Mo-om! I'm trying to talk on the phone!
<kissfan> well at least in about 2 weeks I can keep them separated for a
while
<kissfan> LOL ya I know
<shorty103> good lucky on that one!
<kissfan> LOL they will be in separate rooms on different ends of the
trailer
<Casey> Do you have questions about dialogue one of us hasn't covered,
Kathy?
<kissfan> LOL I don't think so maybe I just needed to cover it sort of as a
refresher
<LilRed> Best advise I can give is to really start listening to real
people--not just what they mean but how they say it.
<Casey> A refresher course is always helpful. It reminds me of things I've
forgotten, too.
<shorty103> well, I know I've said a lot more than I thought or felt I was
going to say at the beginning, but like always, you folks here, always
bring me out of my shell, or bad feeling at class time
<kissfan> yes
<Casey> And remember that you don't have to use a lot of words to convey a
strong impression. A single word, well placed, can do it.
<kissfan> ok
<kissfan> I think I got it now LOL
<kissfan> thanks casey for covering it
<LilRed> When you write dialog especially, read it out loud and see if it
sounds like something someone would actually say, or like a business letter.
<Casey> Real-life speech is incredibly rich and varied. I love listening to
people talk.
<shorty103> well, I tried to put my one cent worth in
<kissfan> you did Rose
<shorty103> LOL
<LilRed> yup
<Casey> You always come up with something good, Rose.
<shorty103> me!
<kissfan> yep you LOL
<shorty103> and I thought I was tapping into an empty well
<Casey> Reading dialogue aloud is a good practice, especially valuable with
any segment you're feeling isn't right.
<kissfan> HEHEE
<shorty103> you caught on to that one Kathy
<kissfan> I will give that a try for sure
<Casey> Sometimes a combination of words, when spoken aloud, are awkward to
say one after the other. That's when one should be changed. We tend to use
words that flow easily when we talk.
<kissfan> yep they tend to roll off the tongue like buttah off hot bread
<Casey> lol!
<LilRed> And incomplete sentences.
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> OOP My Maine accent hit my fingers
<Casey> I like contrasts in dialogue, too.
<Casey> For example, everyone in a town speaks with a certain dialect. In
come two strangers who speak with near-perfect grammar.
<LilRed> How do you spell, yes in Maine?
<LilRed> Ay-yuh?
<kissfan> LOL well down easters usually say "ayah"
<LilRed> There's a difference. We'd say easterners.
<Casey> New Jersey folks have daawgs as pets.
<kissfan> Now you got it LOL now don't forget no ending rs just end those
words with ah and you will really have it
<kissfan> In Massachusetts people drive caars
<Casey> caahs?
<shorty103> now you guys are losing me here!
<LilRed> We talk like news people.
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> It's our funny accents, Rose.
<shorty103> that's an understatement!
<kissfan> My botther in law and I have been having fun with the way we talk
around here
<LilRed> Maybe that's why dialects fascinate me, people here talk boring.
<kissfan> and tomorrow he will be a bother since it looks like I will have
to babysit again darn it
<shorty103> maybe that's why I love talking to you and Kathy on the phone so
much
<kissfan> That could be it Rose
<Casey> We get people from the deep South around here. Someone came on the
radio when Harold was kissing me and I burst out laughing over his heavy
drawl.
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> LOL that is real bad timing!
<shorty103> all the way!
<LilRed> Really.
<Casey> Harold certainly thought so.
<shorty103> hehehee
<kissfan> LOL I bet he did
<Casey> Do any of you tend to pick up a dialect or accent from a place you
visit or live for awhile?
<kissfan> LOL I did when I lived in Mass for a while
<LilRed> Hey, do you think the real Waltons or the real Little House folks
sounded like they did on the tv shows?
<shorty103> no
<kissfan> LOL NEVER!
<LilRed> I definitely do--just talking to someone, I'll unconsciously
imitate them.
<Casey> No, since that was a made for TV script. All the boring chit-chat
would have been dropped, and any too heavy accents ditched in favor of
viewer comprehension.
<shorty103> LOL
<kissfan> LOL it’s easy to do Chip
<kissfan> Heck they even took out a lot of saying that people would have
said during the time of the Waltons
<kissfan> people of today, for the most part wouldn't have understood them
<LilRed> I wonder if people from W. Virginia were insulted by that as much
as if they overedid the accents?
<kissfan> I bet that they were
<Casey> Country dialects are different from city dialects, too. References
are certainly different.
<kissfan> yes very true
<LilRed> You is purtier than a spotted heifer.
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> Thank yea, thank yea.
<LilRed> City Girl: Don't you call me no heffah!
<Casey> Okay, you old cow!
<kissfan> LOL there is the mainers version of heifer
<LilRed> Lol
<LilRed> Its also ghetto
<kissfan> You are getting a bit of a Maine accent when you type Chip
<kissfan> lol
<Casey> She's a verbal chameleon, remember.
<kissfan> LOL a-yah I know
<shorty103> who, Chip, yes, just like SW
<Casey> SW doesn't blend in with those around her. She definitely stands on
her own.
<shorty103> true
<kissfan> Most definitely
<LilRed> I can do a lot of dialects but I have trouble with Actually
sounding like a New Englander.
<Casey> Oh, in researching tonight's topic, I discovered an interesting
tid-bit of information.
<LilRed> What tidbit, do tell!
<kissfan> ok share Casey what was the tid-bit
<Casey> In scriptwriting, a 20--30 minute one-act play equals to 20--30
typewritten, double-spaced pages. A 90 minute to 2-hour full lenth play =
90 to 120 double-spaced, typewritten pages of dialogue/action.
<kissfan> WOW!
<LilRed> That makes things simple.
<Casey> Yep. Equates to 1 page = 1 minute of screenplay, or play, or
whatever.
<shorty103> wow
<Casey> I don't do scriptwriting, so I know next to nothing about it.
<Casey> And "comparative dialogue" is what is used in historical fiction.
<LilRed> I think that would be fun to learn, but there seems to be less
market for scripts than there is for novels.
<Casey> A lot of novels become adapted for movie screenplays.
<kissfan> so true a new one seems to pop up every day lately
<Casey> I'm content to write the novels. Let someone else who knows what
they're doing adapt it.
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