CHAT ARCHIVE - 7-1-00
Reader Integration and Engagement

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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Sun Jul 02 00:17:23 2000

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<Casey> Who and whom. How to use them.
<Casey> There are fancy terms for when and where to use each one, but I
can't remember names of things, and names of terms aren't important in
actual use anyway. There are other, practical ways to remember when to use
which, and that's what I teach: practical use.
<shorty103> in letters to a person you don't know, I always begin it with "
To whom it may concern"
<Casey> Do you understand why that's correct use, Rose?
<shorty103> no, I just use it cause it makes sense to me
<Casey> It's correct because "to" is a preposition. Anytime a preposition
is used, whom is the correct word to follow it.
<Casey> With is a preposition, so, "With whom did you dance?" is correct.
<Casey> Anytime a preposition ends a sentence, Whom is the correct choice to
begin that sentence.
<crip> So 'who'is more general while whom is direct?
<Casey> I don't know about being general, but who is always the choice when
it is the subject of a sentence.
<shorty103> now your confusing me, well, the whole English language confuses
me!
<Casey> Who's there? (who is the subject of the sentence)
<crip> ok nevermind then
<kissfan> or even who is driving the bus?
<Casey> Right, Kathy.
<Casey> Whom are you voting for? (In rewrite, For whom are you voting,
shows that whom is the correct choice. When who is used as a subject, you
can't easily rewrite the sentence.)
<shorty103> so if you wrote the sentence both ways, you could see what one
looks better
<Casey> You can't rewrite Who is driving the bus and make it make sense, so
Who is the subject of the sentence.
<Casey> Right, Rose.
<shorty103> okay, but I still get confused of what who or whom goes where,
even though you are teaching it now, but it doesn't take that much to
confuse this person
<Casey> That's one of the fun things about writing, is that so much of what
we do can be written any number of ways. It's our choice of which way we do
it that makes our style so unique.
<kissfan> one of my favorite lines is for whom ths bell tolls. . .
<Casey> Good example, Kathy. I like that too.
<shorty103> me too
<kissfan> LOL not bad after 2 glasses of wine tonight HEHEE
<Casey> There's also the use of whom when it's the object of a verb.
<Casey> (Mostly, when who/whom is used as the object of anything: a
preposition, a verb . . ., the proper use is whom.)
<Casey> You are looking for whom?
<Casey> (again, for--a preposition--preceded it)
<Casey> Whom did you see? (You see (what) . . . whom.
<kissfan> whom should I say is calling? is that correct?
<Casey> Who is calling is the main sentence. "should I say" simply adds
information to the sentence, so I believe Who should I say is calling? is
the correct version.
<Casey> You get into formal and informal use of the words, but that gets
confusing.
<Casey> I teach (and tend to use) the formal versions.
<kissfan> ya it does LOL
<Casey> Informal would allow you to say, Whom should I say is calling,
because that's become acceptable through use and in informal writing.
That's where grammar gets impossible to learn.
<Casey> Or, at least confusing.
<Casey> I would be prone to use the informal uses only in dialogue.
<kissfan> ya where you can get away with it a lot easier HEHEE
<Casey> Everyone confused? If so, on to the main topic!
<Casey> Not only get away with it, but in some cases, it would be preferable
to the formal use.
<kissfan> yep
<Casey> If you have a character saying "ain't," or putting on airs and
saying "Whom are ya?" that can be effective.
<kissfan> LOL ya really
<Casey> Let me grab a quote I typed onto my WP. One sec.
<Casey> "Suspension of disbelief"-being so convincing in your details and
surprising as a storyteller, by evoking such strong emotion, or by making
your characters so fascinating that the reader is hooked and wants to read
on and learn more. But your fiction must be largely as plausible as what
the ordinary reader regards as fact, or accepts as a convention of your
genre. [*How to Write & Sell Your First Novel* by Oscar Collier with
Frances Spatz Leighton (Cincinnati, Ohio) Writer's Digest Books, 1986.]
<Casey> Suspension of disbelief is what we try for as writers--trying to get
the reader to so believe in our characters that it's hard for them to
believe they're not real people--even when writing fantasy.
<Casey> Stories are about two things: plot and characters. The goal of
every writer is to engage the reader in both the characters living the story
and the story itself. How do you gain reader sympathy for your characters?
<Casey> What about your characters can make a reader pull for your main
character and want his/her to win in the end?
<crip> bubbly personality?
<Casey> One way, is to have a character seeking to regain a lost love.
<Casey> Good, Crip.
<kissfan> LOL how about overcoming a tough situation
<shorty103> by making the characters three dimensional and the story as true
as possible even if it's fiction, to put the person within that story
<Casey> But don't some bad guys manage to win reader sympathy, too? How is
that possible?
<Casey> Yes, Kathy.
<kissfan> even bad guys have a soft spot like a love for animals
<crip> I hate to refer to another author but you brought up a good point,
Casey.
<Casey> Go ahead and refer to another author, Crip.
<crip> I just read an essay by Card who said that surprisingly a lot of
people found Darth Vader to have sympathy because in a sense he was a
character the story revolved around
<shorty103> interesting crip,
<Casey> Yep. And in a very real way, wasn't Darth Vader not actually in
control of his own destiny? Wasn't he seen as controlled by the emperor?
<Casey> That puts him in the category of tragic hero.
<crip> interesting point. i don't know if he was controlled.
<crip> i guess that's why they have prequels *L*
<kissfan> and he did have a soft spot when it came to his son
<shorty103> yes, but by the third movie, he showed himself as a true
person not a machine or uncaring like in the beginning
<Casey> The emperor ordered him to eliminate young Skywalker. He followed
those orders, even knowing it was his son he must destroy.
<Casey> Exactly, Rose. He became human under that monster facade.
<kissfan> but he does hesitate enough to lose the battle
<Casey> Yep, which showed a conscience, and perhaps a wish to fail.
<kissfan> yes he wanted to die and end his suffering
<crip> however it was Vader who kept wanting to look for him. It wasn't
like the Emperor was forcing him to.
<shorty103> I've watched these movies so much, I know what to expect in
some ways, but it always surprises me just the same
<Casey> What would the emperor have done to Vader if he had failed him?
(Just guess.) Or disobeyed him.
<kissfan> he would have killed his son himself
<kissfan> and then killed vader
<Casey> Or killed Vader, too?
<crip> honestly i think they weren't too far off on the power levels
<kissfan> ya
<shorty103> the emperor would have killed both, and yes I agree crip
<crip> I only say that because i refer to the first movie and the ranks
between Vader and the Grand Moff. Vader was hardly in charge there.
<Casey> They weren't, Crip. Which made their relationship interesting. But
the emperor was always shown as the one in power when they were shown
together. Alone, Vader was indisputably in power.
<crip> you do have a point
<Casey> Sort of, Vader traded his soul for that power.
<kissfan> yep and regained it at his death
<Casey> Good point, Kathy.
<kissfan> and remember Luke kept saying he could still feel the good in him
<shorty103> well, it seems that neither one, Vader or the new one in the
newest movie weren't really in control at all, they just obeyed orders of
the emperor which had the real power
<Casey> It's the play of characters, one with the other, one against the
other, that allows the heirarchy of power to emerge.
<crip> which new one, rose?
<crip> oh nevermind
<shorty103> the phantom menses
<crip> i read an interesting column that compared the two and Vader who have
whipped the new guy in a heartbeat
<Casey> menaic
<crip> trying not to make a nasty joke...hehehehehe
<Casey> (OH, forget the spelling!)
<kissfan> LOL your spelling is really off tonight Rose
<shorty103> I know, sorry
<kissfan> LOL menace
<Casey> As long as we can figure it out, it's spelt good enough.
<Casey> Thanks, Kathy.
<shorty103> thank you Kathy
<kissfan> even half drunk I got it right
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> More sympathy moves. Anyone?
<Casey> In David Eddings' famous trilogies, the second trilogy deals with
the kidnap of Garion's infant son. However, where the book failed for me
was when Eddings failed to create a believeable, close relationship between
Garion and his newborn son.
<Casey> That's when I stopped reading his saga.
<crip> what do you mean, casey?
<crip> why was it unbelievable?
<Casey> Because his wife wouldn't allow him to even hold his own child, and
yet he went through all sorts of incredible things to get the child back.
<Casey> There was no father-son bond.
<crip> ah
<crip> why wouldn't she let him hold the kid?
<Casey> And he didn't divorce his nutso wife before he went to recover his
child.
<kissfan> ha so there wasn't any bonding between them at birth
<Casey> And the child was stolen within a month of birth, or sooner--I
forget.
<kissfan> oops ya
<Casey> If the bond had been created, I would have believed all the
unbelieveable contortions he went through to recover the child. Assuming a
bond that doesn't exist yet in the reader's mind (and working to show one
doesn't exist!) was not a good move on Eddings' part.
<kissfan> yes I agree
<shorty103> me too, that is important to show something like that
<Casey> Especially when it was the premise of the entire next trilogy, Rose.
<Casey> I was ready to let the witch make mincemeat of the kid and good
riddance. End of reading.
<shorty103> that doesn't make sense to me, with everything I have learned
up to this point
<kissfan> lol
<shorty103> that an author would do that
<Casey> If a character is weak, let him be strong in his daydreams. That
wins reader empathy.
<Casey> We can all identify with that!
<kissfan> boy can we LOL
<shorty103> that makes sense Casey, I like that saying
<Casey> Unjust punishment wins reader sympathy.
<Casey> An innocent person caught up in a lie wins reader sympathy.
<Casey> (Can you guys come up with others?)
<crip> Two wrongs don't make a right?
<crip> he he
<Casey> Exactly, Crip.
<Casey> An underdog (especially a handicapped underdog) striving to reach or
gain a noble goal.
<Casey> Which brings up a good point:
<Casey> If the hero goes too far in retaliation by maiming or killing the
tormentor/bad guy, reader sympathy may turn into contempt or disgust. Be
careful there.
<crip> example?
<Casey> How much sympathy do we really have for Loretta Bobbit? I don't
have much.
<crip> when was she a good/sane person to begin with?
<Casey> She was a battered wife, but there are legal measures in place for
handling people like her husband. She did not chose one of those courses of
action.
<crip> oh i see
<kissfan> me either I usually make sick tasteless jokes about her
<Casey> She ended up as despicable as her husband in many ways.
<Casey> I do too, Kathy!
<shorty103> from Reader Digest, I four books in one, the names of the
stories are, The Devils Teardrop, by Jeffery Deaver , Lake News , by
Barbara Delinsky, Thunderhead , by Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, and
A Walk to Remember, by Nicholas Sparks
<kissfan> yep
<Casey> What are those about, Rose?
<shorty103> well, I haven't read them yet, but I could look on the jacket
of the book
<Casey> That's okay. I thought perhaps they were pertinent to our
discussion.
<Casey> I haven't read any of those either.
<kissfan> me either
<Casey> A handicapped character fighting to reach a goal is especially
sympathy-generating.
<shorty103> well, I just thought I would mention that I do get books, I
just haven't gotten around to reading them yet
<Casey> And his goal can be as simple as achieving self-care, which we take
for granted.
<Casey> Yay, Rose!
<Casey> (Now read one!)
<crip> has there ever been a handicapped character that we don't feel
sympathy for? Serious question, really.
<shorty103> I have to finish reading the one I started, LOL
<kissfan> yes exactly or even handicapped children reaching out and
accomplishing something that they didn't think possible
<Casey> I know real-life handicapped people I don't feel sympathy for, but
not in fiction that I can recall.
<crip> ok
<Casey> That might be a good (new) subject matter to address, Crip. An evil
handicapped person.
<crip> be hard to do that's for sure
<kissfan> LOL a handicapped murderer
<Casey> wouldn't he be the last suspect?! It's perfect! And not really
that hard to do. I could draw upon real life.
<shorty103> interesting thought Casey, a different twist or angle to a
story
<crip> hmmm
<Casey> How about an endangered main character? One stalked (as in Kathy's
novel),
<kissfan> exactly LOL
<Casey> . . . one being stalked by a hit man, an evil cop or prosecutor
<Casey> Any victim gains reader sympathy. A battered wife or child.
<Casey> Even someone who is grossly misunderstood.
<crip> what about a victim that refuses to do anything about their
situation?
<Casey> That kind of person begins to lose sympathy fast.
<Casey> That builds reader frustration instead.
<kissfan> LOL though that I would let you know that there are 2
possibilities on who the stalker could be in my story Casey
<Casey> Good, Kathy! Even better than having 1 definite stalker.
<kissfan> ya I would throw the book out the window crip
<Casey> The unknown is great for getting readers to turn pages.
<crip> yup
<kissfan> Ya I thought so keep the reader guessing
<Casey> The old, old trick of injuring your hero or heroine after securing
reader identification is another trick that's still tried and true.
<Casey> Just don't start with a dead body and expect anyone to care. The
reader must have some basis upon which to know whether to care or not first.
<kissfan> exactly that is why the murder in a mystery usually happens later
on after you get a chance to read about why she /he may have been murdered
<Casey> Finally, have your character grow, mature, or at least change in
some way by the end of the book. Otherwise, having him go through all the
trials and tribulations becomes meaningless.
<shorty103> I hear ya on that one, there are so many tricks to learn, that
it gets confusing at times of what's allowed and what's not
<crip> oooh oooh can i use an example, casey?
<kissfan> lol
<Casey> Anything is allowed, Rose. In the hands of a skilled writer,
absolutely anything is permitted, possible, and can be handled well. That
kind of skill, though, is relatively rare.
<Casey> Sure, Crip.
<shorty103> okay, well I have a long way to go LOL
<Casey> That's why writing is so great. Anything is possible.
<crip> Everyone should read Ender's Game to see a small innocent boy
transformed into a warrior
<Casey> I've read it. Good example, too.
<Casey> It's a book about manipulation of another, as well.
<Casey> Card does psychological changes well.
<crip> yup
<Casey> But what's interesting is, that while the adults are manipulating
the kids, the kids are manipulating the adults as well.
<Casey> (Remember Ender's brother and sister, Crip?)
<kissfan> LOL it sounds like it was fun to write as well
<crip> yes
<crip> good example
<Casey> Which brings up theme.
<crip> i'm on the fourth and final book in the Ender series that does an odd
twist for those two. Don't want to spoil it though.
<Casey> The theme you chose to write about can instantly grab reader
attention.
<crip> ah so true
<Casey> Uncle Tom's Cabin was about the viciousness of slavery and changed
the history of America.
<kissfan> So true
<Casey> (Don't tell me that fictional novels don't impact the reading
public!)
<kissfan> LOL ya really
<Casey> You guys, as writers, have more power to influence than you know.
<shorty103> sorry, just taking everything in
<Casey> The Blackboard Jungle addressed the lack of discipline in schools
and the dangerous situations such lack can set up.
<kissfan> Yes we hold the power in the stories we write
<Casey> Exactly, Kathy. For while stories are entertaining, they are also
instructional.
<kissfan> yep
<Casey> People read, in large part, to learn new stuff. You have the power
to decided whether they learn how to build a bomb from what you write, or
how to better parent their children.
<Casey> Children who are abused learn ways to escape their predicament--and
even learn that their predicament is not "normal."
<Casey> Shared morals and beliefs will draw readers to what you write as
well.
<shorty103> LOL, yes, that is so true, but I didn't have to read to learn
that I was in a predicament that wasn't normal but sometimes I wish I had, I
could have seen sooner,
<Casey> Those who are staunchly pro-life won't likely sympathize with
characters who are choosing abortion as a family planning method.
<Casey> But you grew up in a normal (non-abusive) household, Rose.
<Casey> Children born to abusive parents don't know another kind of life, so
abuse is "normal" to them.
<shorty103> yes, that is right, I did, so abuse of any kind, I didn't
know
<Casey> Assume when you write that your novel is not the first novel your
reader has read. (It would be rare!)
<shorty103> but that brings up something else, what about brain washing,
with weak minded people it is so easy to lead them astray
<kissfan> Yes and if it is sexual abuse they feel that it is normal as well
like I though all father's did that kind of thing to their kids until I was
older
<Casey> They are not weak-minded so much as very trusting, Rose. Naive,
perhaps, in that trust.
<shorty103> okay, cause at that time, I was more trusting than I should
have been
<Casey> Exactly, Kathy. That is the way a father shows "love" to his
daughter, if it's been a part of that child's life for years.
<kissfan> exactly and then I felt so stupid later on when I found out things
was different
<Casey> It's because the individual hasn't learned not to trust another.
<Casey> Rose, you were lucky in that you had a warm, trusting family life.
The dangers other kids face in their dysfunctional family did not affect
you, so distrust wasn't a survival skill you had to learn.
<shorty103> true, but I grew up and I still feel trusting of others, but I
am more watchful now of others as well
<Casey> I tend to trust people first, at the same time I watch for small
cues that can indicate trouble or lies.
<Casey> Having a good memory helps there.
<shorty103> yes, I agree with I wasn't prepared for what I ended going
through, but it's one of life's little tests
<kissfan> Yes and now for the most part I can pick out a controling abusive
man fast just by looking at him. I had gone through that too in life
<Casey> I don't think many people approach others with the thought foremost
that "this person is out to get me." We trust until proven we can't trust
or must be wary.
<shorty103> I hear ya Kathy, I'm the same way
<kissfan> yep
<shorty103> true Casey
<Casey> By assuming that our readers have read widely, allows us to make
references to other literature, especially words and key names that have
become household words.
<shorty103> example please
<crip> I know of a lot of references to Tolkein and even though many haven't
read the entire series they know what the reference is
<Casey> I grok your meaning, says volumes to anyone who has read Stranger in
a Strange Land.
<Casey> Exactly, Crip. Lord of the Rings was an example I'd thought of for
tonight's class, myself.
<Casey> Gollum is one character who is eternal from LOTR
<Casey> Gandolph, Bilbo, Strider . . . the list goes on.
<crip> yup
<kissfan> yes for sure
<crip> with the movie coming out in 2001 hopefully a wider audience will
begin to enjoy it
<Casey> Catch 22 is actually the name of a book that originated that saying.
How often have we heard that one?
<kissfan> Yes I was thinking about that one Casey
<Casey> Simon Legree is fading from common use, but he still stands for
supreme evil.
<crip> who?
<Casey> From Uncle Tom's Cabin. The evil slave owner.
<crip> oh sorry never read that one
<kissfan> LOL see even crip doesn't remember simon legree
<Casey> Which means, that it's important to know the age of your audience.
<shorty103> I am looking forward to seeing that movie crip, but I think it
might help to read the book too, but me and reading seem to have a battle
<crip> true, rose
<kissfan> yes Rose You Must read the book too HEHEE
<Casey> If you're writing for teens, you can't reference the same things and
be understood that you can if you're writing for the 40's age group.
<Casey> (To make matters worse, Rose, it's not one book but 4)
<crip> you'd be surprised how many adults seem to think they can
<kissfan> yep the whole series HEHEE
<shorty103> Oh my! what joy that's going to be!
<Casey> It's fun reading, though. Very engrossing.
<crip> yeah and bring a dictionary. i know i needed one.
<kissfan> ye I loved them
<shorty103> a dictionary, for what? crip
<crip> the words in the stories
<Casey> In the same way, the elderly (60's and up) have first-hand
experiences that those in their 40's don't.
<shorty103> okay, I'll have one on hand just in case needed
<Casey> They grew up without TV, when the common goal was to marry, have
children, and run a small farm.
<Casey> Which is what my parents did.
<Casey> They remember silent film and the first talkies.
<crip> wow
<kissfan> and some of the best stuff written
<Casey> And some of the worst!
<shorty103> LOL, I know, Jim is loaded with stories of his own, and I
learn something new from him all the time
<kissfan> LOL yep
<kissfan> LOL that is why I love taking a tape recorder with me when the
elderly start telling their stories
<Casey> It's great hanging around with older people. They have wonderful
stories. And they grew up in an age when talking was an art, not something
that interrupted a favorite TV program.
<Casey> Which cleverly brings up dialogue.
<crip> it is? i mean yeah it is hehehehe
<shorty103> LOL, true, and Jim always says, if you need advice, go and
talk with a older person because of their experiences with life,
<kissfan> yep most of the time we was without electricity due to dad not
paying the bill and so there was a lot of conversation in my home about when
they were younger
<kissfan> exactly rose
<Casey> Our power went off every winter, Kathy. No water, no electricity,
no heat, teaches kids a lot about communication and survival skills.
<shorty103> that is why I listen to him, whether or not he thinks it's
important, it is to me
<kissfan> yep for sure! and reading by oil lamps was fun for me I still do
it sometimes
<crip> I don't think I could last for more than a day without electricity
being the young'n i am
<Casey> Again, dialogue comes back to having characters say interesting
things to each other. Which may mean research--live or literary--to learn
occupational secrets or little known facts that relate to your story's
subject.
<crip> i went camping in a cabin once for the weekend and almost went out of
my mind. Nature bllecccch,
<kissfan> LOL crip
<Casey> I have to take you tent camping, Crip. You'll love it.
<crip> never
<Casey> Cabin camping is boring. You can't take the cabin and go anywhere
with it.
<crip> who wants to go anywhere?
<kissfan> right Casey tent camping is lots more fun
<shorty103> can I go too Casey, I haven't been camping in so long, I
almost forget what it's like
<crip> mosquitoes and nasty weather
<Casey> Sure, Rose! We'll have a NW's campout. I'll teach you to knap
flint.
<kissfan> yes and you can learn terms and really listen to the way that they
talk
<Casey> And we'll use flint and steel to light campfires.
<crip> oh lord NW would burn the campgrounds down
<shorty103> what, what is knap flint?
<Casey> (Beware crazy women carrying gasoline cans, though! true story)
<kissfan> LOL
<Casey> Making arrowheads, Rose.
<shorty103> Oh cool!
<shorty103> where and when
<Casey> One of the most memorable trips I went on Crip was during a
hurricane. Our tent sat in 1 inch of water for days. It was great fun.
<crip> don't trust virginians. they're all cannibals!
<crip> gee great
<kissfan> ya sounds like it
<Casey> Harold "cooking" his only pair of shoes over the campfire trying to
dry them was a sight.
<kissfan> HEHEE I bet it was!
<crip> oh no!
<shorty103> cool! Oh I haven't been camping in years, LOL, I bet it was,
and the smell from them wasn't that great either I bet
<Casey> That was the first time he ever went camping with me. And he had
enough gumpshun to be willing to go again. That's love!
<crip> or from being brainwashed
<kissfan> yep it is
<crip> oops
<shorty103> it sure is
<crip> he he
<kissfan> lol
<Casey> The fun-est research is live research--like trying to make your own
arrowheads. You can write with authenticity afterwards. You don't have to
rely upon second-hand info.
<Casey> One of the reasons people read is to learn new stuff, as I said
earlier, so the more you learn, the more interesting your writing becomes by
default.
<kissfan> yep and the woman in my story is a clothing designer and I learned
all kinds of that stuff growing up from sewing and now designing my own
things
<Casey> Stream of consciousness. Anyone know what that term means?
<crip> a bunch of thoughts at once?
<Casey> Close, Crip.
<Casey> It is a character's private thoughts. It doesn't necessarily have
to be a bunch.
<crip> oh ok
<kissfan> like things running through you mind like a movie such as a dream
at night?
<kissfan> ook
<Casey> Yes, Kathy. And stream of consciousness can be used to augment or
contrast with a character's actions.
<Casey> It can show the real person rather than the facade that person
presents to the public.
<kissfan> yes getting to the heart and soul of the character
<Casey> It can also reveal a snake of a person who plots one thing and
claims another, wanting a victim's trust.
<Casey> I have read books that don't use stream of consciousness, but for
the most part, they don't engage me. I feel like an outsider throughout.
<kissfan> ya I know what you mean I have to make some kind of a connection
to keep going
<Casey> Exactly, Kathy.
<Casey> Perhaps I haven't read a skillful-enough writer using that
technique, but I prefer stream of consciousness at least interspersed
throughout a novel.
<Casey> The easiest and quickest way to connect with a character is through
stream of consciousness. Then through actions and choices.
<crip> can you think of any work where it did work?
<Casey> Nope.
<crip> hmmm
<Casey> Only in nonfiction, where it wouldn't be expected anyway.
<crip> true
<kissfan> yep
<Casey> Action and choices are more time consuming, but are very effective
as well in drawing a reader into a character's life and making them care
what happens to him/her.
<shorty103> still trying to understand this stream of consciousness that
your speaking of. I'm a little lost here
<Casey> And action does not have to be physical movement. It can be verbal
action, or forward movement (progression) in the mental arrival at a "right"
conclusion.
<shorty103> sorry, sometimes it takes a little bit to unconfuse me
<Casey> Stream of consciousness is simply a character's thoughts. That's
all.
<shorty103> okay, understand now, thanks
<Casey> Only the terminology is confusing, Rose. The concepts are simple.
<shorty103> yep for sure
<Casey> Often, I learned the concept before I learned what the danged thing
was called.
<kissfan> LOL ya
<shorty103> LOL
<Casey> My personal goal as a writer is to get so good that I can have a
character pick up a pencil and scare my reader to dead by that action.
<shorty103> that's why I ask when ever I don't understand, it may drive
some people crazy, but I have to understand something before I can put my
two cents in
<kissfan> LOL I like that goal Casey
<shorty103> ya, same here
<Casey> Action, too often, is misconstrued by writers as a constant need for
physical movement, to the point the reader can become exhausted long before
the character needs food and sleep. I personally don't go along with that
thinking.
<shorty103> me either, they have to stop like the real people in the world,
so why not put it in the story too
<Casey> Probably, my writing can benefit from a bit more physical action
than it has (like a well-placed murder here or there, right Crip?).
<kissfan> I have been trying to get into the minds of my characters and the
best way is to write what they are thinking
<Casey> But that's me, and I'll wait to hear what an editor comments, if
anything at all.
<crip> blinkityblinkblinkblink i don't know what you're talking about, casey
<kissfan> lol
<Casey> Don't trust a student who's been in my Lies! Damned Lies! class.
he he
<crip> HMPH
<kissfan> hehee
<Casey> With that, you guys have exhausted my stock of knowledge on this
subject. But don't let that stop us from continuing the subject, if you
like.
<crip> some teacher he he he
<Casey> Where?!
<crip> I don't know either
<kissfan> lol
<Casey> I'm just a lowly moderator/facilitator.
<Casey> A sysop, even.
<Casey> Teacher? Never!
<kissfan> HEHEE
<crip> i'd be happy with finished writer of book hehe he he
<Casey> I'm working on it! I wrote a little more the other night. Then
fell asleep over the keyboard.
<kissfan> OOPS I did the same thing Casey
<Casey> Where are you now, Kathy? What chapter?
<kissfan> I am stil on chapter 7 hope to get going on 8 over the next couple
of days off
<Casey> If I could stay awake, I could probably be a writer.
<kissfan> LOL me too HEHEE
<crip> stay away from work
<kissfan> Ya that too
<Casey> That would help. Work is ruining my vocation.
<kissfan> lol yep for sure and now I have 3 kids to try to watch until the
trailer is empty and they move into it
<kissfan> so I can't get much done there
<Casey> I think I began heading in a wrong direction with my story. I have
to read what I wrote after class and see whether I need to delete a
paragraph.
<kissfan> I expect world war 3 to break out there soon
<kissfan> OOPS
<Casey> Sounds like a distinct possibility, Kathy. I hope you're one of the
survivors.
<crip> uh oh
<kissfan> that doesn't help I am going to go through mine and see if I
repeated myself too much
<Casey> I did that when it took me 4 months to write 3 chapters. I was
horrified when I finally read the book through. How awful!
<kissfan> I will be for sure because when it starts I will say I want to go
home and that I eon't be back
<kissfan> LOL that is why I am doing it a little bit at a time as I go on
just to make sure of what i have done and what I need to take out.
<Casey> Rereading helps, especially when you're a slow writer. I forget
with the passage of too much time what I've said and the details of where
people are going.
<kissfan> yep me too so I go over it just to find out where I left off and
end up fixing it as I go along
<Casey> Same here.
<Casey> There is a lot to be said for writing the story straight through
without breathing.
<kissfan> ya I know. HEHEE
<Casey> You don't lose track of points and issues and effects you want to
create.
<crip> but if you get to a dead end it really is a pain
<shorty103> back
<Casey> But until we publish our first best-seller, I guess we're stuck with
what we have.
<kissfan> yep for sure
<Casey> That's true, Crip.
<kissfan> on both parts
<Casey> I've found that when I stop dead in the water, so to speak, it's
because there's something seriously flawed that I can't see right at that
moment. My subconscious knows, but it takes me time to figure out why the
story's not moving at all.
<kissfan> yep and then I have someone help me find the problem if I can't
find it
<Casey> That's were a crit group can be a big help. New eyes can spot flaws
quickly.
<kissfan> yep
<crip> i bet especially if they had something to read
<crip> hehehe
<Casey> What a shame you're not part of my crit group, Crip! Oh wait! You
read more of my work then they do.
<kissfan> LOL
<crip> and does little miss author listen to my kill...i mean suggestions?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
<kissfan> HEHEE
<shorty103> I have to learn one before I can do the other, that's why I
don't do crit's
<Casey> If I listened to you, I'd have a massacre and no one left but
Yutrenta to tell about it!
<crip> and your point is?
<Casey> LOL! It seems I have no point.
<kissfan> oops that might not be good
<Casey> It would make for a very short novel.
<kissfan> A bit too short
<Casey> I don't even know how long or short. I have no idea how long my
novel is, other than in chapter length.
<Casey> And one of those chapters is about 3 paragraphs long.
<kissfan> ya I know what you mean I don't either
<Casey> Someone once said that they keep a word count as assurance that he's
making progress. That made sense, but that much info might discourage me,
too. Or make me panic that the book was getting too long for a publisher to
consider as a first novel.
<Casey> I'm of the "make it as long as is needed to tell the story" school
of philosophy. Regardless of brevity or length.
<kissfan> ya I know what you mean. I would rather go by the chapters and at
least I can see that I am getting something done
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